Nicolas Coppola, gay catholic who married, is banned from church duties, was this right?

[Soren_Itenu]

Mariem2:

The “This is heresy” response appeals to me.

Thank you for understanding. Apparently some other members here think that my hardline stance in “not nice”. Sorry, we Christians are not called to be nice. We’re called to be kind. Calling something heresy when it is heresy, or calling attention to someone advocating sin is decidedly a KIND thing to do, because it is working for the best good of that person’s soul. Kindness is admonishing the sinner. Niceness is saying, “oh you’re all right. Jesus loves you no matter what you do. Go on sinning. It’s okay! Hugs!”

 

[EasterJoy]

You are entitled to your opinion of course.

Well, OK, you could be dreaming, too. Point taken…and my way of putting this is my opinion, that is true, too.

That homosexual acts are morally forbidden, however, is not coming from my opinion, and it is not up for debate. I have to trust the Church on that point, even if I had a great deal of sympathy for your opinion. Otherwise, I’d have no reason to have an opinion that I would consider binding on anyone else. I don’t have that particular inclination, but I don’t desire to keep people from doing things just because I’m not inclined the same way as they are. If the Church did not teach that this were forbidden, then even if I had an opinion I’d be bound to mind my own business…kind of like my opinion about those awful tuxedos with lime-green tie and vest. I think they’re an abomination, but the Church does not forbid them, so that is just my opinion, and nothing more. The same with those ear things that put big holes in people’s ears. I think they’re going to regret them when they’re old, but that’s just my opinion. That doesn’t make them a moral fault. If I were vegan, that would be great, a lot of monasteries are vegan, but that wouldn’t be binding on other Catholics, no matter how spiritually edifying I thought it was to avoid eating animal products.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Corki]

They removed him just because he had same-sex attraction…even though the Church stresses it is not a sin at all to have same-sex attraction and those who do are heartily to be welcomed into and embraced by the church?

He was removed…because he was honest with his congregation?

If that is the case, that’s really, really unfortunate. He would have been a good example to other young people in the church who do have SSA, showing them that they, too, can follow doctrine and be chaste just as he is.

Maybe. But he would have been a very BAD example of someone in the clergy who promised obedience but then defied his Bishop. Using your logic, wouldn’t this be showing young people and others that it’s ok to disobey?

 

[90Domer]

Thanks for reducing me to my sexuality. Much appreciated.

No, your referenced post #244 stated that you thought a lot about your gayness and decided that the Church was wrong. So, it appears you were the first who brought up the idea of sexuality.

 

[Lapey]

Well I agree we ought to look at God for questions of morality and I often look to the Church to set the standard. However, I’m not defining morality on my own just because I happen to be affected by it. There are certain moral truths like one should not kill, hence why regardless of the Catholic position on Capital Punishment I am against it. I do not believe the Church’s position on homosexuality is unequivocal and therefore I have serious doubts about God’s condemnation of it.

Finally no is suggesting this man become Pope. The Church is hurting for Eucharist Ministers and Lectors and to condemn people because they don’t always follow the tenets of the faith is just silly and sends the message that these people are welcome to attend but must be silent. Is that really the message our Church should send?

You sound like a six year old. You cannot argue with anything that is true and backing of your words, just your own ideas because thats what makes your god be a god made in your image. By the way, God made you in His image, not the other way around.

No, the Church is not hurting for any ministers, there are enough of every type; we could use more priests but even that is on the rise.

Try producing anything that backs up any of your claims you hav emade in the last week.

 

[90Domer]

Yeah well you let me know how that works our for you having a smaller church not hearing the message of The Lord. I myself would subscribe to the large umbrella philosophy that its better for people to be in the circle hearing the message even if not all agree. Plus, things can change.

If you have a bigger circle of people hearing a Catholic message where they don’t all agree, then you simply have what we have now–cafeteria Catholics…aka Protestants. I would rather be surrounded with faithful Catholics who respect and support what I believe versus people trying to dilute the Church message with their disagreements.

 

[Lapey]

Oh for goodness sake. If you feel that strongly about it, start your own religion, appoint yourself pope and make all the rules you want. Your first converts can be the LGBT or whatever they call themselves and you can all be happy as pigs in the proverbial.

Yes because thats exactly what I am advocating.

You are professing beliefs in things that are not catholic teaching, so yes you are declaring you want a new Church. The one called Catholic does not accept the lies in which are being told about Her. There is only one truth, Mother Catholic Church holds ALL of the revealed Truth.

We all have as nicely as possible relayed these things to you but you flippantly dismiss them with disdain for us who share it.

I told you several threads ago, you will have to pick a side, good or evil. As of now you seem to want to join good but you continue to serve evil. I pray you accept Jesus in His fullness, the Holy Catholic Church; even the parts you do not accept or understand.

 

[EasterJoy]

They removed him just because he had same-sex attraction…even though the Church stresses it is not a sin at all to have same-sex attraction and those who do are heartily to be welcomed into and embraced by the church?

He was removed…because he was honest with his congregation?

If that is the case, that’s really, really unfortunate. He would have been a good example to other young people in the church who do have SSA, showing them that they, too, can follow doctrine and be chaste just as he is.

And what if a priest is not chaste, or has not always been chaste? Is he duty-bound to disclose that, too? Does honesty require that a priest announce his sexual history to his congregations? How about his history with alcohol? His driving record? Whether or not he smokes or has ever used illegal drugs? Whether or not he ever had a steady girlfriend? Should priests thought to look effeminate be forced to disclose the answer to that question some nosy people are wondering about? Why on earth should disclosing this sort of thing be thought a good idea?

Same-sex attraction is a disorder, and it is morally misleading for a pastor to imply that it is not. That may not have been his intention at all, but it is up to the bishop whether or not he wants clergy who have various disorders to disclose them to the faithful. Sometimes, it is far better to maintain one’s privacy, if for no other reason than to avoid putting pressure on others to disclose that which is better left undisclosed. Did this pastor consider that perhaps his bishop has a few more priests to concern himself with besides just this one?

This pastor pledged to be obedient to his bishop and his bishop’s successors, a promise which he broke by making a personal disclosure that the bishop told him not to make. He was not asked to lie. He was told to keep private matters private. That was asking no violation of the truth. If his bishop had told him not to disclose that he was an alcoholic or obsessive compulsive or any of his other personal issues, then he ought to have honored his bishop’s request in those cases, too.

Have you ever had a pastor announce to the congregation that he is heterosexual? Whether or not he’s had any sexual experience? I never have. It is not a violation against the truth to have a sense of discretion, nor to keep your mouth closed about yourself. Where people got that idea–that is, that they are somehow morally bound to supply TMI about themselves, or that it is morally praiseworthy to make such public disclosures–I have no idea.

 

[Lapey]

Yeah well you let me know how that works our for you having a smaller church not hearing the message of The Lord. I myself would subscribe to the large umbrella philosophy that its better for people to be in the circle hearing the message even if not all agree. Plus, things can change.

You are already not hearing God’s voice, if you would you would not be rejecting everyone of your brothers and sisters who had tried to help you see truth. You do not want to see it.

The umbrella aproach,I think Jesus talked about that; “Narrow is teh gate that leads to heaven and few take it…wide is the road to distruction and is highly traveled.”

Dictrine and dogma will never change…homosexual acts, abortion, contraception are said to be intrinsically evil today and will be at the end of time. Truth cannot change…if it would, what would be true about it???

 

[stlcatholic86]

Where did you get the idea that the Church is hurting for Extraordinary Ministers (the correct terminology) and lectors? Even so, that is no reason to place a person who can cause scandal in one of these positions. Personally, I would not receive communion from an EM if I knew he/she was in grave sin. My in-laws were open supporters of SSM and members of a dissident anti-Catholic/pro-SSM organization, and members in their parish reported them and would not receive communion from them either. They made no efforts to hide their SSM advocacy. Dissenters in visible volunteer positions further weaken the Church.

And I still do not understand why those who do not follow the teachings of the Church still continue to call themselves Catholic. Those who have thought out a position and disagree with it are, quite frankly, saying they know better than God. That is prideful, isn’t it?

My apologies in my parish we call them Eucharistic ministers but you are correct the term is Extraordinary Ministers. In any case I get the idea because in the parishes I have attended there is always a need for lectors and EM I mean never for Saturday or Sunday masses, but weekday masses can be challenging for scheduling.

Well I think honesty wins out because I could be openly gay in a relationship without anyone knowing and then you would listen of take communion from me? My point is you can never know if a person giving you communion isnt in “grave sin.” In any case, this parish actually had numerous supporters of the couple besides the priest so it seems the only scandal resulted in preventing them from teaching.

Finally, on the argument that if you disagree with the church on X you shouldn’t call yourself Catholic. I think actually you and most of the gay community I know should get together on this one because it seems to be a common theme between you. Meaning I am questioned constantly by gays about why I am Catholic knowing how damaging the Church is to our community and to our causes and then on the other hand question by Catholics as to how I can call myself Catholic when I am an unabashedly openly gay man. The simple answer I give is don’t put in a box just because I’m gay doesn’t mean I have to think, act, or be a simple way. I hardly ever tell people I’m gay and rarely do people suspect. Yes I believe the church is wrong about homosexuality, but I believe it’s right about way more and it’s my path to Jesus Christ and once a Catholic always a Catholic.

 

[stlcatholic86]

And what if a priest is not chaste, or has not always been chaste? Is he duty-bound to disclose that, too? Does honesty require that a priest announce his sexual history to his congregations? How about his history with alcohol? His driving record? Whether or not he smokes or has ever used illegal drugs? Whether or not he ever had a steady girlfriend? Should priests thought to look effeminate be forced to disclose the answer to that question some nosy people are wondering about? Why on earth should disclosing this sort of thing be thought a good idea?

Same-sex attraction is a disorder, and it is morally misleading for a pastor to imply that it is not. That may not have been his intention at all, but it is up to the bishop whether or not he wants clergy who have various disorders to disclose them to the faithful. Sometimes, it is far better to maintain one’s privacy, if for no other reason than to avoid putting pressure on others to disclose that which is better left undisclosed. Did this pastor consider that perhaps his bishop has a few more priests to concern himself with besides just this one?

This pastor pledged to be obedient to his bishop and his bishop’s successors, a promise which he broke by making a personal disclosure that the bishop told him not to make. He was not asked to lie. He was told to keep private matters private. That was asking no violation of the truth. If his bishop had told him not to disclose that he was an alcoholic or obsessive compulsive or any of his other personal issues, then he ought to have honored his bishop’s request in those cases, too.

Have you ever had a pastor announce to the congregation that he is heterosexual? Whether or not he’s had any sexual experience? I never have. It is not a violation against the truth to have a sense of discretion, nor to keep your mouth closed about yourself. Where people got that idea–that is, that they are somehow morally bound to supply TMI about themselves, or that it is morally praiseworthy to make such public disclosures–I have no idea.

The only comment ill make is that I have heard many Priests discuss their own personal struggles in homilies or in pastoral guidance to better help relate the scriptures to everyday life.

 

[Lapey]

Oh, do you mean he advised/gave advice to children that went against doctrine??
He told them they can express their same sex attraction in their behavior, if they had it?

Yes. He advised them and concreted their notions against true teachings; much like stlcatholic they now believe it is us who are wrong and void of truth.

 

[stlcatholic86]

No, your referenced post #244 stated that you thought a lot about your gayness and decided that the Church was wrong. So, it appears you were the first who brought up the idea of sexuality.

No actually the forum is about a gay man. I just brought up my own experiences and yes I have thought a lot about being gay and coming to terms with it, just as a solider might come to terms with actions taken during a war.

 

[hosemonkey]

“You may say that I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.”

Truthfully I do not let rules get in the way of my relationship with Jesus Christ and God.

That is the problem. Your disagreement and disregard for the rules DO get in the way of your relationship with God and Jesus. Breaking the rule of chastity and the rule against homosexual sex result in mortal sin, which causes death of the soul if unrepented and destroys your friendship with God. Following the rules is very often not easy, but rules that govern our conduct are most often for our own good. Your attitude implies selfishness and not a little immaturity.

 

[Lapey]

They removed him just because he had same-sex attraction…even though the Church stresses it is not a sin at all to have same-sex attraction and those who do are heartily to be welcomed into and embraced by the church?

He was removed…because he was honest with his congregation?

If that is the case, that’s really, really unfortunate. He would have been a good example to other young people in the church who do have SSA, showing them that they, too, can follow doctrine and be chaste just as he is.

He was removed becuas ehe was disobediant and was teaching heresey. He was not a good example, a good example would have been someone who served God and not his own agenda. He should have served as a loyal and faithful servant priest; this is what he was called to not outing himself and making a mockery of the Church by disobeying the Bishop and Church doctrine.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

stlcatholic86:

Yes I believe the church is wrong about homosexuality, but I believe it’s right about way more and it’s my path to Jesus Christ and once a Catholic always a Catholic.

To all members,

This is heresy. This is against the moral teaching of the Church. I urge all members here to not give ear to what stlcatholic86 has to say. He has proven himself a heretic and therefore cannot be trusted in moral matters.

 

[stlcatholic86]

You sound like a six year old. You cannot argue with anything that is true and backing of your words, just your own ideas because thats what makes your god be a god made in your image. By the way, God made you in His image, not the other way around.

No, the Church is not hurting for any ministers, there are enough of every type; we could use more priests but even that is on the rise.

Try producing anything that backs up any of your claims you hav emade in the last week.

I think you misunderstand my point. As I do believe God made me in his image as he made all of mankind. He just happened to make me gay. That’s really is my point.

Perhaps in your parishes they aren’t suffering for any ministers but in the parishes I have attended there is always a need for ministers.

Also, I would ask that you respect me sir and not engage in attacks ad hominem. If we can agree on nothing else can we at least agree on this?

 

[Lapey]

I think you misunderstand my point. As I do believe God made me in his image as he made all of mankind. He just happened to make me gay. That’s really is my point.

Perhaps in your parishes they aren’t suffering for any ministers but in the parishes I have attended there is always a need for ministers.

Also, I would ask that you respect me sir and not engage in attacks ad hominem. If we can agree on nothing else can we at least agree on this?

If they are sufferring to the point that people blatently living outside of Church guidlines are needed, then th ebishop needs to shut the parish down. The supreme law of teh Church is teh salvation of souls, not the filling of ministry spots. Truth saves, not tolerance of sin.

I am not attacking you; I am treating you as a person who has rejected truth repeatedly. I will correct you every time you post because you spread untruth as a Catholic. You can either take Catholic off of your profile or stop posting heretical views. You want continue to gravely sin in your personal life that’s your choice, but here you will continue to be called out for speaking falsely.

furthermore, if you care to continue our PM conversation let me know I am ready to help you; but you must come to the conversation open and tolerant of Church doctrine and dogma as that is all you will get from me.

There is a simple reason I called you a 6 year old, because this is how you are acting. You refuse to hear truth because it goes against what you want it to be…6 year old mentality.

 

[stlcatholic86]

If they are sufferring to the point that people blatently living outside of Church guidlines are needed, then th ebishop needs to shut the parish down. The supreme law of teh Church is teh salvation of souls, not the filling of ministry spots. Truth saves, not tolerance of sin.

I am not attacking you; I am treating you as a person who has rejected truth repeatedly. I will correct you every time you post because you spread untruth as a Catholic. You can either take Catholic off of your profile or stop posting heretical views. You want continue to gravely sin in your personal life that’s your choice, but here you will continue to be called out for speaking falsely.

furthermore, if you care to continue our PM conversation let me know I am ready to help you; but you must come to the conversation open and tolerant of Church doctrine and dogma as that is all you will get from me.

There is a simple reason I called you a 6 year old, because this is how you are acting. You refuse to hear truth because it goes against what you want it to be…6 year old mentality.

Correct I am rejecting the Catholic “truth” regarding homosexuality. How I am equated to a six year because I disagree with the Church and you on that position is beyond me. As free will intentioned adults we can have a civil discussing about this. Ultimately, we are going to have to just agree to disagree.

 

[majorem]

Ditto…I’ve read the entire thread/everyones comments regarding this issue…and …I agree totally with what has been said here…I’m still wondering about his Eminence Timothy Cardinal Dolan and his position on this matter…I must be careful here as not to be banned from the site…but…where does he stand…can anyone address this…we had a female couple in our church parish that went off to get married…raising children (one natural from previous marriage, the other surrogate - which is of course an entirely new matter)…attending our church school and these women were active in the parish…probably doing a pretty good job…good people…professional…but…they were passing themselves off as a married couple , living an openly homosexual lifestyle…the new Rector, asked them to step down from their positions in the Parish much to the dismay to some of the more (for lack of a better word) Liberal Parishoners…I say good for him…no one’s judging the individual…just the behavior…and where would we be if the Parish sanctioned this behavior…there are Catholic churchs , I know…I’ve seen the video…now banned from this site…with the dedication of St Francis Xaiver Parish in New York…with openly gay/homosexual individuals dancing around with incense on the Altar…and openly gay parishoners expressing their joy with how welcome they felt at this church and happy they were to be able to recieve the sacraments…then Arch Bishop Dolan lookin on…help me with this…help me with this…I’ll prbly be blocked from the site…but just answere my questions someone…where do we draw the proverbial line in the sand here…my only response to my very generic querrie into this matter was…“we catch more flies with honey”…not sure I want these flies…we need to know our Parish…know our Bishop…know what is acceptable…don’t just sit by and blindly say/do nothing…the priest/Bishop that addressed this issue did the right thing…