Nietzsche's übermensch and the ressurection body

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if you guys are familliar with my posts i think youll see that im a fan of nietzsche. in fact hes one of my favorite philosophers. he was a big influence on my world view during my more agnostic phase, but even now that my faith has strengthened i still regard him as a wise man. but one realy interesting thing that i noticed is that there are quite a few parallels between christianity and nietzche’s philosophy. to name a few:
the übermensch,
nietzsche belives that it is the ultimate goal of every man to “transcend himself” and become a “superman” and be like a god. this “superman” would have totally become master of his primitive animal drives as well as having attained a higher self consciousness. he will also have attained physical and intellectual perfection. the übermensch would be capable of superhuman qualities like flight. this is much like the catholic teaching. because doesnt catholicism teach that we must master our urges and passions (i.e chastity, fasting) and the catholic teaching also states that our bodies in heaven will also have superhuman qualities like physical perfection, super intelligence, incorruptibility, immortality, etc.

another similarity, is nietzsche’s view of “the last man”. since nietzsche believed that there was no morality (since he was an atheist) he thought that humanity was in danger of succumbing to nihilism. this would be a state where man will have become like cattle, only pursuing his animal urges ( like sex for example). so nietzsche thought that the solution is to create an ideal to strive for, kind of like a heaven. isnt it likewise in christianity? arent we trying to avoid the degenerate state of “the last man” by aiming for an ideal that transcends our current state?

i just think its interesting for an atheist philosopher to be so idealistic. is it possible that nietzches borrowed a lot from christian philosophy, even though he strongly criticized theism?
 
someperson555 said:
… Nietzsche believed that there was no morality (since he was an atheist)
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I firstly take HUGE offense to this. Atheists I know put more thought into their morality than most theists I know. While Nietzche may not have been a big fan of it, that does not mean that atheism is synonymous with no morality any more than theism is synonymous with not believing in science.

Moreover, if he were worried about humanity slipping, then he obviously believed there must be a “good” and a “bad” and that we were slipping away from the “good.”
 
someperson555 said:
if you guys are familliar with my posts i think youll see that im a fan of nietzsche. in fact hes one of my favorite philosophers. he was a big influence on my world view during my more agnostic phase, but even now that my faith has strengthened i still regard him as a wise man. but one realy interesting thing that i noticed is that there are quite a few parallels between christianity and nietzche’s philosophy. to name a few:
the übermensch,
nietzsche belives that it is the ultimate goal of every man to “transcend himself” and become a “superman” and be like a god. this “superman” would have totally become master of his primitive animal drives as well as having attained a higher self consciousness. he will also have attained physical and intellectual perfection. the übermensch would be capable of superhuman qualities like flight. this is much like the catholic teaching. because doesnt catholicism teach that we must master our urges and passions (i.e chastity, fasting) and the catholic teaching also states that our bodies in heaven will also have superhuman qualities like physical perfection, super intelligence, incorruptibility, immortality, etc.

another similarity, is nietzsche’s view of “the last man”. since nietzsche believed that there was no morality (since he was an atheist) he thought that humanity was in danger of succumbing to nihilism. this would be a state where man will have become like cattle, only pursuing his animal urges ( like sex for example). so nietzsche thought that the solution is to create an ideal to strive for, kind of like a heaven. isnt it likewise in christianity? arent we trying to avoid the degenerate state of “the last man” by aiming for an ideal that transcends our current state?

i just think its interesting for an atheist philosopher to be so idealistic. is it possible that nietzches borrowed a lot from christian philosophy, even though he strongly criticized theism?
Click to expand...
I agree, Nietzsche is great. His idea of self transcendence matches the message of Jesus.

Even his famous passage declaring God to be dead- what is this if not a description of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the guilt of man:
God is dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?

And what better challenge to Christian compassion is there then this, from Zarathustra:
“What good is my pity! Is not pity the cross
on which he is nailed who loveth man? But my pity is not a
crucifixion.”
 
Atheism is a banned topic. Be care to discuss the title of the thread and not atheism in particular.
 
Qoeleth said:
I agree, Nietzsche is great. His idea of self transcendence matches the message of Jesus.

Even his famous passage declaring God to be dead- what is this if not a description of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the guilt of man:
God is dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?

And what better challenge to Christian compassion is there then this, from Zarathustra:
“What good is my pity! Is not pity the cross
on which he is nailed who loveth man? But my pity is not a
crucifixion.”
Click to expand...
indeed. 👍
 
I am deleting everything I said because I can’t talk about the morals of an atheist without mentioning atheism or evolution, both of which are banned topics.
 
LJH_80 said:
Trying this again,

I would be shocked if any western writer in the past 1,500 years wasn’t.
The church has been one of the single highest concentration of literate individuals in the western world for centuries, thus, if Nietzsche was going to read anyone, they were probably Christians.

Interestingly, his ideas also work with the concept of evolution. All of humanity must be laboring to make better the thing that comes next, and mankind devoted its entire effort into self-betterment, it would eventually become something unrecognizable as the species it was before. This over-man (or next step above man) that would follow man would be the result of a continual focus on improvement, and would therefore be seemingly perfect by our standards.
This is an ideal to strive for, but it still functions in an entirely terrestrial fashion.

The fact that it also works with Christian theology, I think, shows that Christian morality has roots in the natural morality that Nietzsche was tapping into. Which, if God created the innate morality inside humanity, this should not be much of a surprise.

These are just theories and other potential explanations. I do not claim to be a scholar of Nietzsche, and able to speak absolutely authoritatively on this subject.
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i dont know why many atheists think that the church somehow opposes the theory of evolution. just for the record, the church has always considered the theory of evolution as a POSSIBLE truth.
and what you said is actually true to an extent. everyone has a conscience therefore no one is exculded from discovering certain moral truths. since all that is good comes from God. but that still doesnt mean that they have to be familliar with christianity though. but considering that nietzsche lived in the west in a predominantly catholic country, it is likely that he was influenced by christian though. (even if he would never admit it lol)
 
I did not say they conflicted, and I don’t believe they do (though I see how you read that from my response). With that said, I am stepping away from this because of my apparent inability to self-censor.
I will send you a private message to clarify what I meant to say.
 
Qoeleth said:
Even his famous passage declaring God to be dead- what is this if not a description of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the guilt of man:
God is dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?
Click to expand...
Have no clue. :o

However, the Catholic doctrine is that Jesus Christ is True Man and True God. God is a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions such as death. No one killed God when Jesus hung bleeding on a cross. Moreover, Jesus as True Man voluntarily gave up His human life as an act of obedience.
 
grannymh said:
Have no clue. :o

However, the Catholic doctrine is that Jesus Christ is True Man and True God. God is a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions such as death. No one killed God when Jesus hung bleeding on a cross. Moreover, Jesus as True Man voluntarily gave up His human life as an act of obedience.
Click to expand...
A few Catholic theologians have proposed the formulation that God died on the Cross, and it is used poetically a few times. I suppose if we are looking at a Christian reading of Niezstsche our hermeneutic method needs to go beyond comparing it with the catechism, in anything like a literal sense. I agree, Nietzsche is not likely to be used in Dogmatic Theology 101, but a more philosophical approach can find in Nietzsche’s understanding of the human condition, and our relationship to transcendence and ideality, a source of theological enrichment.
 
Qoeleth said:
A few Catholic theologians have proposed the formulation that God died on the Cross, and it is used poetically a few times. I suppose if we are looking at a Christian reading of Niezstsche our hermeneutic method needs to go beyond comparing it with the catechism, in anything like a literal sense. I agree, Nietzsche is not likely to be used in Dogmatic Theology 101, but a more philosophical approach can find in Nietzsche’s understanding of the human condition, and our relationship to transcendence and ideality, a source of theological enrichment.
Click to expand...
Please allow me to split hairs.

The first thing which is obvious on CAF is that there is more than a bit of difference between a “Christian” reading of anything and the Catholic Deposit of Faith. Granted our Christian sisters and brothers are really our sisters and brothers as we share many basic beliefs.

The next obvious thing is that some, not all, Catholics have a shallow understanding of how the visible Catholic Church operates on earth. Part of that may be due to current scandals which overshadow the doctrinal approach to Catholicism. As far as I can tell, the contemporary watering down of Catholic teaching was present in the middle of the last century. My personal opinion is that the slipping away from teaching Catholic doctrine in depth, affected university and seminary students who, in turn, influenced Catholic education on the lay level. Dumbing down is a good description.

Historically, the dilution of Divine Revelation can be traced to the reasons for the first Ecumenical Church Councils. Guided by the Holy Spirit (John, Chapter 14) over years of study and prayer, these Councils defined and made explicit the doctrines which are part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith. Today, the Arian heresy is still alive and well, though dressed in modern trappings.

Based on the above, when one approaches philosophers like Nietzsche, those who accept Catholic theology, need to split a few hairs. A good example is the comment – "I agree, Nietzsche is not likely to be used in Dogmatic Theology 101, but a more philosophical approach can find in Nietzsche’s understanding of the human condition, and our relationship to transcendence and ideality, a source of theological enrichment.’ From post 12.

True, it is beneficial to understand Nietzsche’s understanding of the human condition. Where one needs to split hairs is that a non-theist "god is dead* position cannot be a source of Catholic theological enrichment. Granted that some, not all, ideals for humanity can work in general with Catholicism and with various forms of theology based on cultural needs. At that point, one needs to split hairs regarding some of the current movements in theology and theology based on the Catholic Deposit of Faith. What is difficult in this decade is that some, not all, current Catholic theologians are deviating from basic Catholic doctrine. And some, not all, Catholic philosophers are also yielding to contemporary cultural needs.
 
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