nightclub worship?

[manualman]

I think it was GQ magazine that once described the evangelical subculture as resembling a “bad Xerox copy of mainstream culture.” Similar to what another poster said, we need to make sure that we aren’t aping the secular culture in order to attract it.

This doesn’t mean that we can’t have rock music with christian themes. I love Caedmon’s Call, Jars of Clay and several other christian musicians. But I also can’t stand some of the syrupy, plastic dreck that gets played on protestant radio just because the lyrics passed the test. If you are going to use art in evangelization, make sure you have talented artists! Otherwise, pursue other means!

 

[glimmer]

do you guys think this is an ok thing to do?

I don’t know that it’s a sin, but it’s gimmicky. Now some would argue with me, but no one comes unless the Father draws him. Gimmicks do not draw people to Christ. Does that mean we can’t speak to people in their own “language”? Well no, but it’s tricky. There is a fine line between reaching people where they live and trying to be like the world in order to win souls.

 

[ricko]

Sorry. I read too hastily. I thought she was DEFENDING the nightclub idea.

SHE IS DEFENDING THE NIGHTCLUB IDEA!!

Well i find it is ok if you are spreading the correct message

so why can’t we have rock Hillsongs, and decor the Church into a more trendy place with spot light (just like disco)

i even have a frez who frequent to Mass (becoz of her Catholic’s BF) fall asleep till the Mass end becoz she just couldn’t find anything that excite her to stay awake…i rather see her as a customer and learning how to win a customer to patronize church

I bet Sodom and Gomorrah were very exciting!

 

[hasikelee]

I would love to have a clean place to rock out all night!

Dancing, partying, relaxing and meeting new people is great fun. And having this available late into the night is perfect for young adults who deal with school and work stacked on top of each other.

I have attempted to the traditional idea of nightlife and it is really quite disgusting.

A place free of smoke, drugs, sex and alcohol would be awesome.

But am I right in concluding that this happened in a church??!!!

Maybe the church basement would be better!

 

[happygal]

If people go to the Mass seeking entertainment, they are already going for the wrong reasons. Making the Mass or other worship services less “boring” will just reinforce incorrect ideas and keep them coming to church for the entertainment.

We live in an entertainment-hungry culture. It is something we should be working against, not promoting.

Hi Elizabeth

You can say that as a Catholic, but it does not apply to everyone, especially the non-believer. Let alone when being approach to ask them to church , everyone runs away thinking church is a hell, so if asking pple to church is easy , we won’t even need to strategy our approach. People who are have at least the basic foundation of christianity will more or less be more acceptance then those who don’t . Of course we are not say church is just for entertainment, but what we are trying to say is church can be fun to go just like other entertainment places. However if somone who have the mind set of stepping into a catholic church to seek entertainment, though is not correct but at least this pple does make a first move to STEP INTO A CHURCH and from there it is our role to get started from there. If there isn’t a lst step they wouldn’t even be a wrong idea of going to a church to seek entertainment and they won’t even be an opportunity for us to move this pple…

 

[RCCDefender]

Hi Elizabeth

You can say that as a Catholic, but it does not apply to everyone, especially the non-believer. Let alone when being approach to ask them to church , everyone runs away thinking church is a hell, so if asking pple to church is easy , we won’t even need to strategy our approach. People who are have at least the basic foundation of christianity will more or less be more acceptance then those who don’t . Of course we are not say church is just for entertainment, but what we are trying to say is church can be fun to go just like other entertainment places. However if somone who have the mind set of stepping into a catholic church to seek entertainment, though is not correct but at least this pple does make a first move to STEP INTO A CHURCH and from there it is our role to get started from there. If there isn’t a lst step they wouldn’t even be a wrong idea of going to a church to seek entertainment and they won’t even be an opportunity for us to move this pple…

Sure, but you can, and probably should, be asking your non-churched friends to fun, entertaining functions that are outside of the actual church service itself. I would do this before ever inviting them to Mass.
Our unchurched friends should be introduced to our Church community first. Then they can see what’s different about us. They can see that, yes, we do have fun, but there is a specific reason for the way we worship the way we do. Once they see this and become interested, they can learn how it’s our faith that makes us different.
They need to see the deep meaning in the way we worship and they will not get that if we just start throw them into Mass like throwing a nonswimmer into the deep end of the pool. Mass is deep; they need to learn to swim first.

People should not be converted because of the entertainment value they get out of worshiping God. I am in agreement with ElizabethAnne.

As far as having a late night Saturday Christian rock party-type entertainment. I say go for it. Just don’t try to call it a church service. Call it what it is: a party.

 

[happygal]

Sure, but you can, and probably should, be asking your non-churched friends to fun, entertaining functions that are outside of the actual church service itself. I would do this before ever inviting them to Mass.

I understand Catholic Mass is very different from a Charamistic movement service like the one i am attending right now, we have rock hillsong (but no dancing), pple are worshipping Lord in a joyful manner, at time we have mini concert before the serivce…etc, when service starts, everyone will sit down and listen to serious Gospel. Nobody are allows to fall asleep as our Pastor has a pair of sharp eye, whoever fall asleep or yawn , he/she will be remained to be serious. So it still bolt down on individual church how they operate their service.

Our unchurched friends should be introduced to our Church community first. Then they can see what’s different about us. They can see that, yes, we do have fun, but there is a specific reason for the way we worship the way we do. Once they see this and become interested, they can learn how it’s our faith that makes us different.

In Asia, pple are not as acceptance as America, having to say that for most Asia countries are dominated by either Muslim , Hindus or Buddhist. Christianity is only a small percentage. Let alone pple here does not bother how faith draw us differently from themselve, because we aim American so you cannot compare American mindset and assume that it will work in Asia. The only place where you can say that is in Philippines where majority of them are Catholic (thks to the missionary who have done a great job) but the rest of Asia, Protestantism are more in favor then Catholicism, thus numbers of converts are growing faster.Take for instead my country. There are in total 30 CC, some dated more than >40+ old, members in total for this 30 CC is around 200,000 members, so 200k divided by 40yrs = 5000 per yrs for this 30 CC, if the tradition way is really doing pretty well, i’m sure to say CC will have dominate Christianity in my country and not the other way around. In Asia the largest stand alone church in Korea have more then 700,000 members. Of course this figures cannot compare to the total world population of Catholic, but if a stand alone church can have so many members attending (my church is only around 22,000 after 17yrs, still very small), i’m sure to say that since Catholic who has the fullness of the truth, the holy of all “Eucharist”,it won’t be difficult for an individual parish to have more then 700,000 members after more then 20yrs. If every church are comfortable with their numbers of members, then i pray that their members can put it extra effort to evangelize for Jesus and don’t expect what we think is correct will work. The message is sacred, so does churches where members work together to grow it. Good trees will bear good fruits and harvest, bad trees will be cut off and will not harvest.

They need to see the deep meaning in the way we worship and they will not get that if we just start throw them into Mass like throwing a nonswimmer into the deep end of the pool. Mass is deep; they need to learn to swim first.

Before you wanted someone to have those deep meaning, you first have to win them to your church, that is why i say how the church works will determine the root of it. It took my frez almost 10yrs to move me to a church, because i never believe in Jesus when i was young, for i am a typical Asia who are born into a buddhist family and i always find going to a church a hassle and boring things to do, so as a new believer , i am very sure to speak of the culture practise here

People should not be converted because of the entertainment value they get out of worshiping God. I am in agreement with ElizabethAnne.

This is true, becoz we cannot ask pple to convert when they don’t believe, but my church objective is to win lose soul to church , after that we can start to educate them and whether anot they wanted to go for baptism we leave it to them as we don’t force pple to convert.

As far as having a late night Saturday Christian rock party-type entertainment. I say go for it. Just don’t try to call it a church service. Call it what it is: a party.

It doesn’t matter how we call it, most importantly is our ojective to spear Gospel to others, the burning anixety in us to win lose soul then the luke warm heart that does not produce any result

 

[RCCDefender]

Happygal,

The message is sacred, so does churches where members work together to grow it. Good trees will bear good fruits and harvest, bad trees will be cut off and will not harvest.

So, if a church doesn’t conform their worship to what the secular world finds entertaining, you are saying they will not produce a harvest and are bad trees???

This is true, becoz we cannot ask pple to convert when they don’t believe, but my church objective is to win lose soul to church , after that we can start to educate them and whether anot they wanted to go for baptism we leave it to them as we don’t force pple to convert.

So you are asking them to immerse themselves into a belief they don’t even understand first?

It doesn’t matter how we call it, most importantly is our ojective to spear Gospel to others, the burning anixety in us to win lose soul then the luke warm heart that does not produce any result

It sounds as though you are saying that Catholics, or really all those who worship in a more “traditional” manner, have lukewarm hearts. This is really offensive.

 

[ricko]

Fashionable Ideas
For people who allow novelty to take precedence over fact, the word new has for them a fascination that dethrones the word true. When that happens, the question of truth no longer is raised, and intellectual sensationalism bars the door to valid knowledge. When new ideas are better ideas only because they are new, people have a feeling of superiority, of fresh vitality. They can look down with pity on the poor people still bound by the fetters of old, obsolete ideas, believing themselves to be free and independent. Swimming with the spirit of the time gives testimony to that.

Fashionable ideas are as contagious as infectious diseases, spreading over a society and winning the assent of millions who no longer even consider examining their validity. The phenomenon keeps repeating itself throughout history. In the fourth century, the whole world woke up Arian.

In the wake of the Second Vatican Council, many Catholics clamored for radical changes and the abandonment of traditional doctrines and values. This general intoxication explains why many good people opposed Pope Paul VI’s encyclical Humanae Vitae. The word went out that artificial birth control (endorsed by Protestants in 1930) was going to become acceptable, priestly celibacy would be abolished, women would be ordained priests, and the Church’s “old fashioned” teachings on sexuality was rejected.

Not only are some people looking for moral relaxation of “severe” doctrines, but the feeling of being modern, up-to-date, and alive makes some people susceptible to these intellectual hurricanes. This sinking to a merely instinctive level is also an expression of a certain cowardice, as some people dread the thought of being looked down upon as foolish, locked in the Dark Ages while the crowd moves gloriously toward a better future. Men easily become slaves of their social image.

 

[ricko]

What do we do instead? We have Fun. Thousands of hours, billions of kilowatts, zillions of gallons of gas worth of pure, relentless, grueling Fun. For the devotee of the Cult, nothing is more important: Fun, or at least something Not Serious, must be occurring constantly. Hence the popularity of television.

Our culture’s worship at the altar of Fun carries major consequences for those who aim to bear witness to the Catholic faith, for the Catholic faith offers reality, the heart of which is joy, while the Cult of Fun offers only flash, distraction, sensation, and glamour, the heart of which is sadness.

The Cult of Fun holds as dogma that feelings are trumps. To any assertion of truth, the ready answer of our culture is, “That’s true for you but not for me.” This is thought by many to be an appeal to “reason” over against the “despotic” Christian call for faith in the unseen God. “If you need something to believe in,” says our culture, “believe in yourself”—anything rather than be “ordered around” by a transcendent God.

“But that sounds so serious,” says the devotee of Fun. “What good is attending to all this cosmic junk if I can’t have my funnies?” To which the faith replies, "It certainly is serious! But it is not sad or dull. As G. K. Chesterton observed long ago, the opposite of funny is not serious; the opposite of funny is “not funny.” Heaven, for which we are made and to which Christ calls us, will have all that the Cult of Fun promises but doesn’t deliver. Heaven is joy, and joy is, as C. S. Lewis says, the serious business of heaven. Fun is just a paper-thin shaving from the top of the great cake at the wedding feast of the Lamb. That cake is, in the words of J. R. R. Tolkien, “joy, joy poignant as grief, beyond the walls of the world.”
Catholic Answers

 

[StephanieC]

The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, the order founded by Fr. Benedict Groeschel, host events in NYC called “Catholic Underground”. (see the link that says “What is it?”)

You would be hard-pressed to find a more “hard-core” orthodox order than the Friars of the Renewal, and from what I have heard (haven’t been myself) these events are holy, reverent, powerful, and 100% Catholic.

Just wanted to throw that into the discussion. While there very likely are no fog machines at a Catholic Underground, but from what I understand, there is plenty of good music!

 

[PaulDupre]

…what we are trying to say is church can be fun to go just like other entertainment places.

Is church an"'entertainment place"? Yes, in modern evangelicalism, that’s exactly what it has become. What a shame. Martin Luther, what hast thou wrought?

 

[Sixtus]

I think you are getting in a twist.

Never heard of the New Age Mod Prods?

These are a group who are staunchely anti-Catholic, likely to be disciples of the Da Vinci Code Hoax. They say they are non-denominational, but I reckon they are Mod Prods in cognito

 

[PaulDupre]

Nope. Never heard of 'em.

 

[Primitive]

Those who come to church looking for entertainment, and do not find it, may have never been looking for God in the first place.
What most youth want is a sense of belonging initially.
They may look for etertainment and excitement in this worthless culture, but we should help them to see how empty it all is…
The leaders of the Church have to learn how to show them the beauty of our faith, not try to stoop down to the level of the world and turn our faith into something it is not.
This is not the first time there has been “entertainment”…it is nothing new. The roaring 20’s had it, and to m knowledge priests never had people dancing the Charleston in their parishes to attract people…yet somehow, the youth still became Catholic and went to Holy Mass…if not…there would be not “us”…they were fruitful and multiplied…
Odd…
I am young and was 24 when I started to church again…but it wasn’t for the “atmosphere”…surely there is sincerity in the hearts of all youth that does not seek vanity.

 

[happygal]

Is church an"'entertainment place"? Yes, in modern evangelicalism, that’s exactly what it has become. What a shame. Martin Luther, what hast thou wrought?

Hi PaulDupre

I guess before you ever make a statement commenting about other Christian, it is best look for you to look at what one have done to serve the Lord. I respect your tradition way of worshipping the Lord, however let alone if i able to win a lose soul to come into an entertainment church then to have them partying throughout the weekend at a secular disco party , so what is there to shame on? I don’t see it as a shame to ask someone to an entertainment church (which l called it myself or shall i say modern church) then to have them waste their life not knowing Jesus Christ. Most importantly, if non believers able to make their first step into a church, then it is my resposibility to spread Gospel to them and let them grow their faith from there. It is easy to p(name removed by moderator)oint about what others have done, however it is even more important for one to win lose the lost soul first to a church then to sit around and p(name removed by moderator)ointing. With all your respect if you think you are a great evangelise to Catholic Church, then please do more to win lose soul to a RC. I’m get very upset the way you have p(name removed by moderator)oint Christian who work hard to win lose soul. One more thing if you ever comes to Asia, i am very happy to welcome you in evangelizing for your RC for this task has never being actively promote to Catholic believers.

Being a Apostle heritage church, where Saint Peter and Saint Paul have done so much in evangelizing to spread the message around to non-believers, how much of effort the Catholic has done in evangelizing in my country is very very little, that’s explain the reason why the number of converts to Catholicism here are so so little. Talking about Shame, who should be shameful of!!!

 

[happygal]

I can understand where this comes from. Put yourself outside of what you know, and put your self inside of a person that just wants God. They don’t want anything else, just God. They don’t want trappings, they don’t want sermons, they don’t want some stiff guy droning on and on about something they don’t care about. They don’t want people’s judgmental garbage. They don’t want people’s rules on what is good or bad about communing with God. They just want God. I dig people like that. I can talk to them. I can relate to them. Shoot, I want to hang out with them.

So what if you don’t like the music or the atmosphere. Are they singing to God? Are they praising God? You don’t understand it? So what. Not Holy enough for you? Get over yourself. David danced before the Lord to the point of being lewd in the eyes of his wife. He gave her the smack down when she tried to chide him for it, now didn’t he? (cf 2 Samuel 6:12-23)

Just because a thing is not to your personal liking does not make that thing bad.

As Catholics we see “worship” and automatically think “Mass.” We are in the minority. People see worship in all sorts of ways, and seek to worship God in every way. Isn’t it far better on a Saturday night to sing praises to God than go bar hoping? Should we not rejoice and be glad that God is praised? Look in the Old Testament. Look at the festivals they had in worshipping God! They partied for days on end! Musical instruments upon musical instruments played for days, dancing, and joy. When and why did we all become dirge mumblers? It’s OK to be joyful. It’s OK to be happy. Might as well be joyful and happy with God on a Saturday night.

So don’t worry be happy

Hi There

You make a good explanation. I give you all my respect, at least you don’t p(name removed by moderator)oint others!!!

 

[happygal]

Happygal,

So, if a church doesn’t conform their worship to what the secular world finds entertaining, you are saying they will not produce a harvest and are bad trees???

Come on, i never mentioned if a worship does not conform to what the secular worlds finds entertaining will not bear good fruits. But it is the another way round that most pple think entertaining worship is not correct

So you are asking them to immerse themselves into a belief they don’t even understand first?

We ask pple to church and listen to Gospel, we are not forcing others to convent to Christianity if they don’t believes. Nobody can force another to do things they don’t want.

It sounds as though you are saying that Catholics, or really all those who worship in a more “traditional” manner, have lukewarm hearts. This is really offensive.

**With all your respect, i am not saying anybody here in the forum have lukewarm heart, i am sorry if i offended you,(at least what i have from my catholic frez was instead of evangelizing, what i have from them are , arrr…i never evangelize, so there isn’t anything for them to hide from me if they never be bother to evangelize)

It is an insult for Catholic to p(name removed by moderator)oint what others have done, calling it a Shame or what so ever.

It is like a Christ Believers pointing fingers at others and calling them a Shame or what so ever !!! Just because they cannot accept modern evangelizing. Who are more offensive, no need me to tell, it is very obvious here.**

 

[VociMike]

…however let alone if i able to win a lose soul to come into an entertainment church then to have them partying throughout the weekend at a secular disco party , so what is there to shame on?

You have to address the possibility not only of “winning” souls with entertainment worship, but also of “losing” them. How many people look at this stuff and lose their faith because of what seems to them a rejection of holiness, of a sense of the sacred, of the replacement of true and reverent worship with 2nd-rate schlock? How many souls are driven out of the Christian faith by such attempts to be “with it”? And will those who offer up such entertainment worship be held responsible to some degree for those souls which are lost as a result of their incessant tampering with traditional styles of worship?

 

[lak611]

Another problem with many of these nightclub, coffeehouse, seeker-friendly services is that they just make people feel good but do not offer the Gospel. Many of these services offer little, if any, Bible reading and teaching. Some are “prosperity gospel”, “health and wealth” (e.g. be a Christian and Jesus will make you rich), and other false teaching. It does no good to get people into a church if there is no real Christian teaching done once they are there.