Nighttime Discussions with an Atheist/Agnostic

[CutlerB]

Last night I was driving back home from a party with some friends and I took a person I didn’t know but who lived near my place, since he had no way of getting home.

Interestingly enough, he had somehow heard that I was the guy “who was deeply into religion”. So on the way home, he brought up out of the blue that, although he lacked belief in God (but didn’t disbelieve His possibility of existence), he had an interest in religion and liked to think about such things. We got into quite deep theological questions, which I found really amusing to do on the way home in the car with a stranger at 2am.

We talked about the following matters:

1. 
   *]His reason he couldn’t believe in God: Why would an all-good, all-powerful God allow babies to die, and their parents to suffer?
   *]What is the role of Jesus Christ?
   *]How is it just that two people, a “normal” believer (but one who didn’t take huge interest in his religion) and a repentant murderer, can both go to heaven?
   *]What is Original Sin?
   
   Though I could give him a general answer to all the questions, they did prompt some on my side to ask you at the end of this post. I checked the Catechism and read up a bit on them, but somehow it doesn’t satisfy the question.
   
   The answers I gave to his questions were at times quite general, probably due to the fact that it was late and I was driving… To No.1 I replied that it was firstly important to note that we, as finite beings, cannot completely understand the Infinite Being, Which is God. We can, at times, get an idea of what He is like, and say what He is not, but we can never entirely express, explain or understand what that really means. Thus, I only went so far as to say that an all-good God respects our free will and doesn’t force anything on us, that He can bring about good from allowing evil and that He is the Author of life, to Whom it is up to to govern life.
   
   To No.2 my answer was that Jesus Christ, the Son of God and God the Son, out of love for us was unjustly condemned and killed, bringing about for us the Salvation of souls. From the objective evil of killing the infinitely loving, immaculate Creator of us, an infinite good resulted.
   
   No.3: Though I didn’t quite understand why he didn’t think it was just and merciful, my response was that everyone would be rewarded in heaven according to how they lived on earth.
   
   No.4: My explanation went along the lines of that Original Sin is the sin of Adam and Eve, who were disobedient and thus fell from Grace, making our human nature prone to sin. The guilt of Original Sin is not counted on us as though we were responsible for what they did, but we nevertheless experience the consequences. This, to him, was the same thing: “Consequences” as punishment from God.
   
   The questions this prompted in me are:
   1. 
      *]Why did Jesus die, what exactly did that merit and how? Couldn’t He have saved us without all of that?
      *]What exactly is Original Sin, and what is its relation to Salvation?
      
      Perhaps you’d like to comment on these questions and help me out on how I could have better answered.
      
      God bless.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know if I can provide you with good sound “teaching” on these matters, but I will share with you my understandings - -

Why did Jesus die, what exactly did that merit and how? Couldn’t He have saved us without all of that?
The very short answer is - I don’t know if God could have saved us in some other way. Many might say that, “He is God - sure He could have done something else”…and that might be true…but since He IS God, I think we can trust that he chose the best way.

In thinking about why God chose the method He did, I have come to the conclusion that there are two reasons.

1. Overcoming temptation - This aspect deals with demonstrating to all that the human being, the “son of man” CAN live a life in accord with and obedience to the Will of the Father and that such a life has great rewards.
2. Getting our Attention - Humans have a tendency to need a 2x4 every now and again just to get our attention. The manner of Christ’s death - and His subsequent resurrection was just such an “attention getter”. The fact that His passion was so public, so unwarranted and so gruesome and left no doubt as to his actual death only enhanced the surprise and the glory of His resurrection. It has gotten the attention of the whole world.

What exactly is Original Sin, and what is its relation to Salvation?
This one is a toughie…and I won’t guarantee that what I share here is perfectly in line with the Church’s expression on the matter…though I don’t think I am contradicting the Church here…
The original sin was Adam and Eve’s decision to disobey God. That’s it in it’s simplest form.
What we deal with is the effects of that original sin. Effects that are pointed out in Scripture.
The devil tells Eve that the fruit will make them like God…and - well - I did…and they have passed on those traits to their children.
What the devil did NOT tell them was that having such knowledge carries with it tremendous responsibility…Responsibility that they were not ready to handle - which is (I believe) why God had not allowed them to eat the fruit in the first place.
So now we have power, awareness, authority, and free will - but we are also still immature, animalistic, cruel, greedy etc…
To overcome this God sent his son to show what true maturity is…even unto death…and also to give us a way to access His grace and His Spirit - through repentance and baptism.

Hope this helps a little…

Peace
James

 

[LittleFlower378]

I think you gave pretty good answers you gave a good definition of original sin to my understanding. You maybe could have added that the sacrament of baptism takes away original sin but we still have to deal with original sins effects. Jesus is God and always was God, and would have came down because of his love for us even if we would have not sinned (franciscan theology.) But because we sinned God gave us his son in the flesh to “take away the sins of the world.” God is all knowing and knew what would happen but still gave us free will. Hope I have added some helps, God bless!

Oh and for question #3 you could have told him to look up the gospel of the good thief hanging on the cross next to Jesus. God is mercifull!

 

[Richard_White]

God used His Divine Son as His means of our salvation, because He wanted that there be some atonement for the grevious sin of mankind. The only One who could have merited such salvation was God Himself.

 

[StevenFrancis]

To No.1 I replied that it was firstly important to note that we, as finite beings, cannot completely understand the Infinite Being, Which is God. We can, at times, get an idea of what He is like, and say what He is not, but we can never entirely express, explain or understand what that really means. Thus, I only went so far as to say that an all-good God respects our free will and doesn’t force anything on us, that He can bring about good from allowing evil and that He is the Author of life, to Whom it is up to to govern life.

Whether it satisfied your friend or not, this is a very well put answer. There are some very good explorations of this idea which get into the fine points. The most illuminating for me were 2 books by C.S. Lewis. This first was an aplogetic answer: “The Problem of Pain”, and the next was a personally experienced autobiographical lesson of the problem of pain entitled “A Grief Observed”.

No.3:

Though I didn’t quite understand why he didn’t think it was just and merciful, my response was that everyone would be rewarded in heaven according to how they lived on earth.

1 Cor 2:9 So we read of, Things no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no human heart conceived, the welcome God has prepared for those who love him.

There are some very challenging parables, and at least one actual life/death event which deals with your friends concern regarding all comers who profess Christ Jesus being rewarded with eternal heaven. I’m afraid they don’t offer any easy answers, but rather confirm that God’s justice is very difficult for us to understand. I’ll post one of the parables, and one historic example:

Matthew 22:2 Here is an image, he said, of the kingdom of heaven; there was once a king, who held a marriage-feast for his son, 3 and sent out his servants with a summons to all those whom he had invited to the wedding; but they would not come. 4 Then he sent other servants with a fresh summons, bidding them tell those who had been invited, By this, I have prepared my feast, the oxen have been killed, and the fatlings, all is ready now; come to the wedding. 5 But still they paid no heed, and went off on other errands, one to his farm in the country, and another to his trading; 6 and the rest laid hands upon his servants, and insulted and killed them. 7 The king fell into a rage when he heard of it, and sent out his troops to put those murderers to death, and burn their city. 8 After this, he said to his servants, Here is the marriage-feast all ready, and those who had been invited have proved unworthy of it. 9 You must go out to the street-corners, and invite all whom you find there to the wedding. 10 And his servants went out into the streets, where they mustered all they could find, rogues and honest men together; and so the wedding had its full tale of guests. 11 But when the king came in to look at the company, he saw a man there who had no wedding-garment on;[1] 12 My friend, he said, how didst thou come to be here without a wedding-garment? And he made no reply. 13 Whereupon the king said to his servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the darkness, where there shall be weeping, and gnashing of teeth. 14 Many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 23:39 And one of the two thieves who hung there fell to blaspheming against him; Save thyself, he said, and us too, if thou art the Christ. 40 But the other rebuked him; What, he said, hast thou no fear of God, when thou art undergoing the same sentence? 41 And we justly enough; we receive no more than the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing amiss. 42 Then he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said to him, I promise thee, this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

The questions this prompted in me are:

Why did Jesus die, what exactly did that merit and how? Couldn’t He have saved us without all of that?

Isaiah 53:1 What credence for such news as ours? Whom reaches it, this new revelation of the Lord’s strength?[1] 2 He will watch this servant of his appear among us, unregarded as[2] brushwood shoot, as a plant in waterless soil; no stateliness here, no majesty, no beauty, as we gaze upon him, to win our hearts. 3 Nay, here is one despised, left out of all human reckoning; bowed with misery, and no stranger to weakness; how should we recognize that face?[3] How should we take any account of him, a man so despised? 4 Our weakness, and it was he who carried the weight of it, our miseries, and it was he who bore them.[4] A leper, so we thought of him, a man God had smitten and brought low; 5 and all the while it was for our sins he was wounded, it was guilt of ours crushed him down; on him the punishment fell that brought us peace, by his bruises we were healed. 6 Strayed sheep all of us, each following his own path; and God laid on his shoulders our guilt, the guilt of us all.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

On #4, my understanding of Original Sin (which may not be the best) is that we bear a collective share of all the sins of all mankind, and that goes vertically (back in time) as well as horizontally (all of humanity currently alive.) That is because sin - however you or your friend wishes to describe it (human failing, crime, bad behavior, wickedness, moral transgression) creates a rich environment for more sin, and can multiply and produce more and more evil in the world. You could consider this as the theological equivalent of the “Broken Windows” theory of sociology and community policing - that community neglect in the commission of small crimes (property vandalism, littering, graffiti) creates an environment in which larger crimes (drug dealing, burglary, gang crimes, homicide) begin. As we are all part of a larger environment (humanity, or simply the human condition), this life is our “neighborhood” and we shoulder the burdens of all the things that have happened in that neighborhood, past and present.

So, if we consider a crime (or “sin,” in our terms) like the following: a man goes into a convenience store to rob it and shoots and kills the clerk, a lot of bad things (sins) had to happen for that to occur. The robber bears primary guilt for his actions, of course, but what other things happened that facilitated it, and who bears part of the guilt? The fence that sold the robber his gun? The burglar who stole the gun from a homeowner? The homeowner who didn’t properly secure it? The drug dealer who sold him the meth that created the need for money? The passer-by who didn’t give him some money when the robber begged on a street corner because “he might use it for drugs”? The jurors who failed to convict that drug dealer on an earlier offense out of fear of retribution? The people who made the drugs? The detective who didn’t do a proper investigation on an earlier offense for the robber, and so allowed him to go free? Sins both great and small multiply and cause other sins, like an almost infinite number of pebbles being tossed into the water, the ripples impacting each other and creating new ripples.

And if we take a vertical view, what sins of those in earlier generations played a part? Did the robber’s father who abandoned his son to chase another woman play a part in the person he became? Did the robber’s mother who physically or emotionally abused her son out of the sense of loss and abandonment by the boy’s father help make him a person who needed drugs to make him deaden the pain? The teachers and counselors who overlooked him because they couldn’t be bothered? The classmates who bullied or teased him because of the way he dressed, or his family situation? The men in his neighborhood, who never thought to work in a youth program that could help provide the boy some guidance and help? And all their parents, and their parents before them?

(cont.)

 

[Arizona_Mike]

And on and on, through the history of man’s cruelty and wickedness, back to the first man, who began the whole interwoven web of sin. Whether one believes in a literal or a metaphorical (but still truthful) Adam and Eve, or whether (like your atheist friend probably does), one believes that man evolved from lower forms of animal life, there was a point in time when man suddenly acquired moral responsibility for his actions, and when we must begin to consider him to be no longer a mere animal, but accountable for his actions in a way that we do not consider primates, or other animals, morally responsible for their actions. That accountability, and free will, is an inherent part of the cruelty we exhibit to others. Whatever point of view you hold, religious or atheist, that point in time when have to be viewed not as animals, but men, is the beginning of Original Sin, and the literal or metaphorical descent from Eden for our species. And so began our whole cruel history of man’s murderous ways towards man.

There are ways each man or woman can work to break free of the bonds of this web of cruelty - such as radical forgiveness of those who wrong us, and not simply trying not to sin, but actively seeing the other as someone who is our brother or sister and loving him or her as we do ourselves - but history has shown that is a difficult path, and we need radical help, and an objective Law, to walk it. As we tend to want to see ourselves in the best light, a big step along this path is the recognition that we are broken in many respects, and we are not the persons we should be or that we are meant to be.

Most of that even an atheist may accept. We need to go a step further, though, and that is why we believe what we believe:

As Catholics, we see ourselves - all of us - as having broken a covenant that was made between us and our Maker, and the accumulated sin of all our yesterdays is so great that we require the greatest sacrifice possible to free us of it, and so the greatest possible being, God incarnated to save us through His own Sacrifice and to wipe us clean - an unearned, and unmerited Sacrifice and Grace that happened, from our point of view at a specific time and place in human history, but which happens from an infinite perspective at all times and places and continues today, at every moment, to save us. To re-establish the covenant that was struck between the Maker and the made, we have the Sacrament of Baptism, the sign of the new Covenant established after that Sacrifice, and the Sacrament of Communion, in which we partake in that very Sacrifice and unite ourselves to the Sacrificed, in Body and Blood.

To pass this all this on, the Maker created a Church on Earth that, despite however imperfectly its members may sometimes act, is in His image as it performs its actions in His name. He wants us to be united to one another and create life within that Church, even as He wants us to be united with Him, so the Church has the Sacrament of Marriage, which mirrors the Sacrificed’s irrevocable bond with us.

As imperfect humans, we may have been saved, but once having achieved the age of reason - the stage of development when we are no longer mere children, but are responsible for our actions (an age which we recognize in the Sacrament of Confirmation), we continue to err and backslide, and can place ourselves in moral jeopardy and harm others through re-entering that web of communal sin and transgression, against others and our Maker. So the Sacrificed established a way to make us clean again, as we were cleansed by His death, and which He passed on, via the Sacrament of Ordination, to his Church on Earth - the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In the final moments of our lives, as the Maker cares enough about us to give us every chance possible to unite with Him, we have the Sacrament of Extreme Unction. So the repentant murderer of the clerk in the convenience store, whose sins may be greater than the clerk (and ours) in magnitude but not in substance or volume, even as the thief who died next to the Sacrificed on his own cross, may reach out to share in that unmerited Grace.

As the Sacrificed has promised us eternal life if we do as He says, we have an answer to the tragic and untimely loss of those we loved - which those who do not believe do not. Those who are united with the Maker after death have an eternity of life before them. We have better answers to the problem of suffering than anyone else, and true ones at that.

Does that help? I tried to answer all your friend’s questions at once but don’t know if I did a good enough job.