No America, No Protestantism?

[Fidelis]

BIG hypothetical here:

If there had been no United States of America-- what would have happened to Protestantism as a world religion? Since the ecclesial communities of the original “Reformation” are in their death throes in Europe and elsewhere, would Protestantism as a whole be all but extinct had the “American experience” not come about?

What if the USA ceased to exist – would that also be the beginning of the end of Protestantism in the rest of the world, as it is largely established and supported by American Protestant missionary efforts? Are “local churches” in developing countries largely extensions of the groups that plant them, rather than home grown phenomena?

Not trying to cause trouble: just hypothesizing…

 

[Verita]

Yes.

When I read Hilaire Belloc’s The Great Heresies I was suprised by how often he said that the Protestant movement was all but dead or that it had failed. I couldn’t understand why he would think that. With his brilliant and almost prophetic way of viewing history, how could he be so utterly wrong?

Of course the answer was America.

America’s identity is grounded in Protestantism. It has been Protestant for all of its short history. Its ideas protestant ideas and doctrines are still young and fresh (compared to Catholicism or the older branches of the reformation) and many Americans have a notion that the world basically revolves around them. America is the reason that Protestantism has not failed or died, as Belloc thought it would.

 

[rr1213]

The USA is without a doubt the strongest predominately Protestant nation and one of the few industrial democracies where faith is still taken serously. Under attack, yes, but still taken seriously.

If the USA had not happened, would Protestantism have died out? Probably not. After all, even in Europe, there are still a number of nations that are at least nominally Protestant…arguably as nominally Protestant as some Catholic countries are nominally Catholic. Look at the UK, Scandanavia, northern Germany as examples. More importantly, perhaps, is the Protestant presence in Africa. Many, many Africans are evangelicals.

 

[Fidelis]

The USA is without a doubt the strongest predominately Protestant nation and one of the few industrial democracies where faith is still taken serously. Under attack, yes, but still taken seriously.

If the USA had not happened, would Protestantism have died out? Probably not. After all, even in Europe, there are still a number of nations that are at least nominally Protestant…arguably as nominally Protestant as some Catholic countries are nominally Catholic. Look at the UK, Scandanavia, northern Germany as examples. **More importantly, perhaps, is the Protestant presence in Africa. Many, many Africans are evangelicals. **

That is correct, but one of my points was: would there be so much growth among evangelicals and pentecostals in Africa (and other Third World areas) were it not for the energy (and deep pockets) of American evangelicals and pentecostals?

(As a side note, the growth of Catholicism in Africa is neck-and-neck with that of Pentecostalism, which, among Protestant sects, is making the lion’s share of converts. Recommended reading: The Next Christendom, by Phillip Jenkins catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0018.html )

 

[Atreyu]

That is correct, but one of my points was: would there be so much growth among evangelicals and pentecostals in Africa (and other Third World areas) were it not for the energy (and deep pockets) of American evangelicals and pentecostals?

I think you’re on to something, but you should also take into account the effect of colonising from the British. I think this is probably the second biggest reason why Protestantism is as strong today as it is.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

BIG hypothetical here:

If there had been no United States of America-- what would have happened to Protestantism as a world religion? Since the ecclesial communities of the original “Reformation” are in their death throes in Europe and elsewhere, would Protestantism as a whole be all but extinct had the “American experience” not come about?

It’s not clear why that should be so - the US is not alone is sending missionaries; far from it. The answer might be “Yes”, if churches planted by missionaries could​

not survive without them; Catholic churches are required to be in union with Rome, so there would be a problem for Catholics: they could not survive well (one hesitates to say “at all”, given the survival of Catholicism in Korea & Japan in the past despite absence of communion with the outside world). Many churches in the US are of a kind which have a loose structure, of a sort which has been exported to plenty of countries - churches with such a structure might very well survive even without outside help. ##

What if the USA ceased to exist – would that also be the beginning of the end of Protestantism in the rest of the world, as it is largely established and supported by American Protestant missionary efforts? Are “local churches” in developing countries largely extensions of the groups that plant them, rather than home grown phenomena?

Not trying to cause trouble: just hypothesizing…

Some Protestant authors in the USA have suggested that the USA is somehow indispensable to the existence of Protestantism ​

I don’t buy this for a second - if the USA vanished overnight, there would still be plenty of Protestants elsewhere. I think this is one of those ideas which gains currency because it suits the Messiah-complex of some (not all) tendencies in US Christianity - the notion that the USA is “a city set on a hill”, is another form of it; as is the notion that the US is mentioned in “Bible prophecy”. No it’s not. And neither, for that matter, is the UK. To quote emphasis in original]: **"Is the world’s greatest nation *ignored *in Bible prophecy? If it is, how could prophecy be considered valid? How could prophecy be *inspired, *If the United States of America is nowhere mentioned?" **

This shows very well the way in which the US as the religion of the US can endanger Christian faith - it is not clear that patriotism is compatible with Christianity, since we have “no abiding city” on earth (as is pointed out in Hebrews).

If the US were not so large, it might be easier for Christians in it to realise that, actually, there are other countries in the world - some of them are even democracies

Is this unfair ? One doesn’t want to to be unkind, but IDSTM (not being from the US) that because the US has been so phenomenally successful in some ways, folk in the US may have trouble realising that there is intelligent life, plenty of it Christian, outside the US. Of course, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps any people that does rather well for itself tends to have unrealistic perceptions about the rest of the world - especially if its geography means it is cut off from other countries

 

[deb1]

It’s not clear why that should be so - the US is not alone is sending missionaries; far from it. The answer might be “Yes”, if churches planted by missionaries could​

not survive without them; Catholic churches are required to be in union with Rome, so there would be a problem for Catholics: they could not survive well (one hesitates to say “at all”, given the survival of Catholicism in Korea & Japan in the past despite absence of communion with the outside world). Many churches in the US are of a kind which have a loose structure, of a sort which has been exported to plenty of countries - churches with such a structure might very well survive even without outside help. ##

Some Protestant authors in the USA have suggested that the USA is somehow indispensable to the existence of Protestantism ​

I don’t buy this for a second - if the USA vanished overnight, there would still be plenty of Protestants elsewhere. I think this is one of those ideas which gains currency because it suits the Messiah-complex of some (not all) tendencies in US Christianity - the notion that the USA is “a city set on a hill”, is another form of it; as is the notion that the US is mentioned in “Bible prophecy”. No it’s not. And neither, for that matter, is the UK. To quote emphasis in original]: **"Is the world’s greatest nation *ignored ***in Bible prophecy? If it is, how could prophecy be considered valid? How could prophecy be *inspired, *If the United States of America is nowhere mentioned?"

This shows very well the way in which the US as the religion of the US can endanger Christian faith - it is not clear that patriotism is compatible with Christianity, since we have “no abiding city” on earth (as is pointed out in Hebrews).

If the US were not so large, it might be easier for Christians in it to realise that, actually, there are other countries in the world - some of them are even democracies

Is this unfair ? One doesn’t want to to be unkind, but IDSTM (not being from the US) that because the US has been so phenomenally successful in some ways, folk in the US may have trouble realising that there is intelligent life, plenty of it Christian, outside the US. Of course, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps any people that does rather well for itself tends to have unrealistic perceptions about the rest of the world - especially if its geography means it is cut off from other countries

I agree with this and I think that it is one of the reasons why the Left Behind books are so popular in America.

American Christians can ignore the fact that in other parts of the world Christians are martyred and God does not return simply to save those Christians from death and suffering. But somehow American Christians will not have to suffer through physical persecutions. Why should we be more important then the rest of the world?

Just curious, is the way Protestantism practiced in USA different then the way that it is practiced elsewhere in the world?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Imagine how things would be here if the Spanish maintained a foothold and colonized instead of the English…

Or if the French had won the War and colonized instead of the English…

 

[rr1213]

Evangelical, and especially fundamentalist, Christians in the US often do think of the US as the City Upon The Hill based, in part, on the influence of the Pilgrim colonists in New England. Forgetting, often, that the first English colonists were good Anglicans in Virginia at Jamestown. The US also has been traditionally insular in outlook due to being “the New World”, separated from the “Old World”, by huge oceans and, also, with an immense frontier to explore and conquer (poor Indians). While isolationism *per se *was pretty much defeated after the experience of WW II (and the regional and global mechanisms created after the war that tended to keep the US involved in the world…UN, NATO, GATT, ASEAN, etc), there is still a deep founded desire among many Americans to just stay at home and let everyone else fend for themselves.

 

[puzzleannie]

BIG hypothetical here:

If there had been no United States of America-- what would have happened to Protestantism as a world religion? Since the ecclesial communities of the original “Reformation” are in their death throes in Europe and elsewhere, would Protestantism as a whole be all but extinct had the “American experience” not come about? …

bear in mind that most of the British Empire was mission territory for the Anglican Church, and in fact it is stronger and more orthodox in many former Commonwealth nations than in England itself. Also England and many Protestant countries of Europe sent missionaries around the world not only to countries they colonized, but also to China and other areas.

 

[kellie]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I live in Australia, and I was under the impression that King Henry VIII started his own religion, breaking away from Catholicism, as the Pope would not let him divorce.

Isn’t that how his Church of England started? The English monarchy used to be Catholic, and now are Church of England due to Henry.

As Australia was settled by the English, we have many Church of England churches here now.

Is this Protestantism too? I know you mentioned the Reformation meaning Luther, and America, is that correct?

But I think people would have eventually split from the Catholic Church, as King Henry VIII did. It was just that America did it first

 

[LRThunder]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I live in Australia, and I was under the impression that King Henry VIII started his own religion, breaking away from Catholicism, as the Pope would not let him divorce.

Isn’t that how his Church of England started? The English monarchy used to be Catholic, and now are Church of England due to Henry.

As Australia was settled by the English, we have many Church of England churches here now.

Is this Protestantism too? I know you mentioned the Reformation meaning Luther, and America, is that correct?

But I think people would have eventually split from the Catholic Church, as King Henry VIII did. It was just that America did it first

It wasn’t really until Elizabeth I that major doctrinal differences between the Church of England and the Catholic Church really began to form. He didn’t break away from the Catholic Church on theological grounds, but political.

 

[rr1213]

I’d say that doctrinal differences between the Church of England and Rome began with King Edward’s reign. Elizabeth, to some small extent, papered over those differences in her famous Elizabethan Settlement. Agreed that the primary reason for Henry VIII’s split was political, actually dynastic, rather than theological. BTW, most of this happened in the 1500s, many years prior to the colonization of British America in the early 1600s. The USA may have been a product of the Reformation in some sense, but it most certainly was not a cause.

 

[kellie]

It wasn’t really until Elizabeth I that major doctrinal differences between the Church of England and the Catholic Church really began to form. He didn’t break away from the Catholic Church on theological grounds, but political.

I’d say that doctrinal differences between the Church of England and Rome began with King Edward’s reign. Elizabeth, to some small extent, papered over those differences in her famous Elizabethan Settlement. Agreed that the primary reason for Henry VIII’s split was political, actually dynastic, rather than theological. BTW, most of this happened in the 1500s, many years prior to the colonization of British America in the early 1600s. The USA may have been a product of the Reformation in some sense, but it most certainly was not a cause.

Ok, cool, I am not very good at history

 

[cheddarsox]

Imagine how things would be here if the Spanish maintained a foothold and colonized instead of the English…

Or if the French had won the War and colonized instead of the English…

Don’t have to imagine it, just take a look at South America. And are there not countries in Africa that were colonized and ruled by the French?

 

[Fidelis]

Don’t have to imagine it, just take a look at South America. And are there not countries in Africa that were colonized and ruled by the French?

Yes indeed – not to mention African colonies established by Spain, Portugal, and Belgium – all Catholic countries.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Yes indeed – not to mention African colonies established by Spain, Portugal, and Belgium – all Catholic countries.

Assuming I know nothing about Africa, is this a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Steadfast]

Great question!

I don’t know.

Some argue that the form of liberal egalitarianism which guarantees freedom of the religion was a matter of God’s providence for the sustenance of the Evangelical faith.

I really don’t know.

I do know that in Asia and Africa the Protestant churches are vibrant, predominantly conservative in theology and growing rapidly, but I also know that they were evangelized, for the most part, and are being sustained by American churches.

It remains as well that the UK has always had a strong evangelical minority and continues to have it today. But its strength lately seems to rest on close ties with US evangelical churches and organizations as much as on anything homegrown.