No! Atheists are NOT like that!

[Tyrion]

C.S. Lewis - I was at this time of living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world.

I cannot believe my eyes! How could he know what “many atheists” think? Did he interview - say - a thousand of them, and got his information that way? How could a rational person be “angry” at a being in whose existence he does not believe? And angry for what that non-existent being “did”? What kind of nonsense is that?

C. S. Lewis - My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?.. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too–for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning. C.S. Lewis

Of course no rational person would expect the universe to be “kind” or “just”. The universe is not a thinking and/or acting person who could act in a kind or cruel manner or be just or unjust. Sheer anthropomorphization on his part.

And this “so-called thinker” is respected? If atheists would really be like that, they would deserve all the negative adjectives you could pile up on them… But we are NOT like that.

 

[edward_george]

I cannot believe my eyes! How could he know what “many atheists” think? Did he interview - say - a thousand of them, and got his information that way? How could a rational person be “angry” at a being in whose existence he does not believe? And angry for what that non-existent being “did”? What kind of nonsense is that?

Of course no rational person would expect the universe to be “kind” or “just”. The universe is not a thinking and/or acting person who could act in a kind or cruel manner or be just or unjust. Sheer anthropomorphization on his part.

And this “so-called thinker” is respected? If atheists would really be like that, they would deserve all the negative adjectives you could pile up on them… But we are NOT like that.

First off, he’s mostly recounting his own experience and that of his contemporaries. Who are you to say that what he knows from his own experience is wrong?

Second off, on your “anthropomorphization” point, he’s not saying the universe is cruel in the sense that you and I are cruel, i.e. that it consciously decides to act that way. Rather, we perceive it as being cruel since our lives within it are often hard. I think you’re trying to read far too much into Lewis’ words for the sake of making an argument. Analogy is not necessarily anthropomorphization, and even if it is, we use words like that all the time. Your argument is somewhat nit-picky, if you will.

-ACEGC

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I cannot believe my eyes! How could he know what “many atheists” think? Did he interview - say - a thousand of them, and got his information that way? How could a rational person be “angry” at a being in whose existence he does not believe? And angry for what that non-existent being “did”? What kind of nonsense is that?

Yeah, that’s ridiculous. You would expect more out of a thinker of his caliber.

Of course no rational person would expect the universe to be “kind” or “just”. The universe is not a thinking and/or acting person who could act in a kind or cruel manner or be just or unjust. Sheer anthropomorphization on his part.

Right.

And this “so-called thinker” is respected? If atheists would really be like that, they would deserve all the negative adjectives you could pile up on them… But we are NOT like that.

Right again.

 

[Bonnie]

If atheists would really be like that, they would deserve all the negative adjectives you could pile up on them… But we are NOT like that.

So all athiests are just like you?

At one time in my life I was very angry with God for life not being fair, or even nice. I could not be an athiest, because belief in God was so ingrained in me, I couldn’t help believing in His existence. I would have liked to not believe in God, because I thought life as it is would be easier to accept.

So I can understand his point of view, which I suspect is shared by many people. I would have an easier time believing athiest’s assertaion of non-belief if they didn’t swear. If God does not exist, why swear by Him?

 

[MaryT777]

I cannot believe my eyes! How could he know what “many atheists” think? Did he interview - say - a thousand of them, and got his information that way? How could a rational person be “angry” at a being in whose existence he does not believe? And angry for what that non-existent being “did”? What kind of nonsense is that?

Of course no rational person would expect the universe to be “kind” or “just”. The universe is not a thinking and/or acting person who could act in a kind or cruel manner or be just or unjust. Sheer anthropomorphization on his part.

And this “so-called thinker” is respected? If atheists would really be like that, they would deserve all the negative adjectives you could pile up on them… But we are NOT like that.

It is just his opinion but it DOES echo much of what many atheists tell me.
How could a God create a cruel world, etc.
followed by tons of examples of how “unfair” things are.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

So all athiests are just like you?

At one time in my life I was very angry with God for life not being fair, or even nice. I could not be an athiest, because belief in God was so ingrained in me, I couldn’t help believing in His existence. I would have liked to not believe in God, because I thought life as it is would be easier to accept.

So I can understand his point of view, which I suspect is shared by many people. I would have an easier time believing athiest’s assertaion of non-belief if they didn’t swear. If God does not exist, why swear by Him?

So you’re saying that no atheist is actually an atheist? We’re in the theater of the absurd at that point. While we’re at it, might as well add that no Muslim is Muslim and no Buddhist is Buddhist.

 

[Allegra]

Atheists have all sorts of mentalities. Lewis gave an account of his own personal mindset at the time and that of others that he knew. Nowhere does he state that all atheists thing the same way. Also keep in mind that at the time he was writing, the world was very different than it is today. Most of the public atheists he would have known would have been former Christians, or at least individuals who were brought up in some sort of Christian faith. The mindset and experience of an atheist who is rebelling against former beliefs or beliefs that were taught to him are going to be quite different from someone who had never been taught those things or believed them. It’s similar with believers. Often converts have a very different experience than what we call “cradle Catholics”.

PS- Lewis is indeed considered a great thinker and apologist. Many other former atheists and agnostics have felt a connection with his writings through the years and have said that it helped in their conversions.

 

[Linux]

But we are NOT like that.

It seems to me you are doing the same thing he is doing. You can only speak for yourself according to your rebuttal, and yet you talk about “we”. Perhaps some atheists really are like that. You can’t really say otherwise, unless you are suggesting that you can get a general sense of the particular attitude that a social group represents by ones experience of them. If so then he can equally make that claim and has the authority of having once been an atheist himself. Its your word against his really. The question is, why should anybody take your word over his?

This is something that you haven’t addressed in your weak rant.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

It is just his opinion but it DOES echo much of what many atheists tell me.
How could a God create a cruel world, etc.
followed by tons of examples of how “unfair” things are.

That’s an argument about the internal consistency of the belief in the Christian God. This seems to be a matter of great confusion for many Christians for some reason, not sure why because it’s used all the time in other contexts.

For example, a kid goes to the dentist with all of his teeth rotting out. The kid says he’s never eaten a single sweet in his life. The dentist asks, “if you’ve never eaten a single sweet in your life, then what happened to your teeth?” Sure, there may be another explanation for the problem with the kid’s teeth, one that has nothing to do with sweets, but it’s a darn reasonable question for the dentist to ponder.

 

[Allegra]

So you’re saying that no atheist is actually an atheist? We’re in the theater of the absurd at that point. While we’re at it, might as well add that no Muslim is Muslim and no Buddhist is Buddhist.

That isn’t what she said and that isn’t what Lewis said.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

That isn’t what she said and that isn’t what Lewis said.

I’m sorry, she doesn’t say all of them. I just hooked onto this line with the suggestion that atheists are secretly lying about their beliefs: “I would have an easier time believing athiest’s assertaion of non-belief if…”

I guess some atheists could be lying about being atheists. It seems a rather insane thing to lie about though, quite frankly. Much better to lie about being a Christian.

 

[englishredrose]

So what are Atheists like then? Apart from all of you are happy to seem to want to argue that there isn’t a God, so you start by accepting that there is a God because you wanna refute Him. You start with the premise God must exist in order to de-exist Him :coffeeread:

remembering as has already been said CS Lewis was speaking for himself and ScrewTape Letters is an excellent entertaining book to read that useful to many a Christian, written by an Atheist as he declares himself, funny but full of useful trappings to be aware of.

 

[Allegra]

I’m sorry, she doesn’t say all of them. I just hooked onto this line with the suggestion that atheists are secretly lying about their beliefs: “I would have an easier time believing athiest’s assertaion of non-belief if…”

I guess some atheists could be lying about being atheists. It seems a rather insane thing to lie about though, quite frankly. Much better to lie about being a Christian.

I think both her and the author’s assertation is that they are, first and formost, lying to themselves. When someone is engaged in a self-lie, they don’t consider it lying to express it to others. People lie to themselves constantly left and right, so I don’t know why you would think that lying about faith would be so extraordinary.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

So what are Atheists like then? Apart from all of you are happy to seem to want to argue that there isn’t a God, so you start by accepting that there is a God because you wanna refute Him. You start with the premise God must exist in order to de-exist Him :coffeeread:

Not this again.

They (some of them) are examining the internal inconsistencies of a claim, which is a perfectly sensible way to go about things. We might do the same for Allah, Zeus, etc.

 

[MaryT777]

It seems to me you are doing the same thing he is doing. You can only speak for yourself according to your rebuttal, and yet you talk about “we”. Perhaps some atheists really are like that. You can’t really say otherwise, unless you are suggesting that you can get a general sense of the particular attitude that a social group represents by ones experience of them. If so then he can equally make that claim and has the authority of having once been an atheist himself. Its your word against his really. The question is, why should anybody take your word over his?

This is something that you haven’t addressed in your weak rant.

 

[snarflemike]

But we are NOT like that.

How many atheists did YOU interview?

Irony is fun.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Hmmm…this thread may get locked. Before then here’s my thoughts.

I cannot believe my eyes! How could he know what “many atheists” think? Did he interview - say - a thousand of them, and got his information that way? How could a rational person be “angry” at a being in whose existence he does not believe? And angry for what that non-existent being “did”? What kind of nonsense is that?

I think two things may have occured here. One is the conflation of atheist with misotheist (those that believe there is a God but have hatred toward it). The other is that conversation about a god-concept may have been interpreted to mean that the person speaking holds the belief there exists an entity that is described by that concept. Though I think this is akin to thinking that some one expressing their thoughts on Optimus Prim or Megatron believes that those two entities exists; after all how can one talk about them without believing they exists.

 

[Tyrion]

The point is that he described himself as being angry at God for NOT existing, and for also creating the world. Maybe you guys do not see that this as a not-really-borderline lunacy. There would be no difference if he expressed his anger at Santa Claus for not existing and also for not bringing him presents at Christmas. Maybe he would have described himself an atheist, but if so… then personally I am happy that he left our camp. He would have been an embarrassment.

 

[snarflemike]

The point is that he described himself as being angry at God for NOT existing, and for also creating the world. Maybe you guys do not see that this as a not-really-borderline lunacy. There would be no difference if he expressed his anger at Santa Claus for not existing and also for not bringing him presents at Christmas. Maybe he would have described himself an atheist, but if so… then personally I am happy that he left our camp. He would have been an embarrassment.

Have you read “Surprised by Joy” or are you just mining quotes? I think it is yourself you embarrass by dismissing Lewis so flippantly. I suspect he forgot more about atheism than you ever knew.

 

[snarflemike]

Of course no rational person would expect the universe to be “kind” or “just”. The universe is not a thinking and/or acting person who could act in a kind or cruel manner or be just or unjust. Sheer anthropomorphization on his part.

So you’re denying that the “Problem of Evil” is a problem after all?

And this “so-called thinker” is respected?

Who needs CS Lewis when we have you.