"No Bible 'til 397" is misleading

  • Thread starter Thread starter Usagi
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
U

Usagi

Guest
Hey folks,

I’m a pretty staunch Catholic, but I’ve seen some ideas thrown around in recent threads that seem to reflect misunderstandings (or at least poor presentation) of the history of Scripture and Tradition. Such misstatements leave our apologetic efforts open to challenge or even outright dismissal by our Protestant friends.

I’m referring especially to the repeated notion that the Church “didn’t have the Bible” until the late fourth century. While this is true in a sense, the way in which it is usually stated oversimplifies matters and runs into a real danger of denigrating the Scriptures, which is something no Christian should want to do.

It is true that we don’t hold up the Scriptures as the clear, self-interpreting sole rule of faith as some of our brethren do, but we must be careful in our arguments not to go so far as to tear down the actual importance of the written Word. Just as we are disturbed by Protestant apologists who seemingly reduce Mary to the status of a walking incubator in their zeal to challenge the honors Catholics accord her, we risk causing only consternation (in fellow Catholics as well as Protestant readers) if our efforts to “dethrone” the Scriptures make it seem as though we have no use for them at all.

Here’s the deal:

We must acknowledge that the majority of the written Word (forty-six books of seventy-three, by our count) did precede the existence of the Christian Church and even the earthly life of Christ. We see that both Christ and the Apostles used the Old Testament Scriptures to demonstrate Jesus’ Messiahship to their fellow Jews. Indeed, one of the earliest elements of Christian oral Tradition must have been the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament Scriptures. We even have a record (in the later New Testament Gospels) of Jesus himself starting the ball rolling on that element of Tradition by explaining all the Scriptural references to Himself to the disciples he met on the road to Emmaus. (Catholics could call that the first post-Resurrection Liturgy of the Word, complete with homily by Jesus Himself, and of course followed by what appears to be the first post-Resurrection Eucharist.)

So even from the beginning of Christianity, we already had Scripture in a central role, though existing within the framework of a new understanding (the beginnings of Christian Sacred Tradition).

After Jesus’ Ascension, the Apostles and their close associates did much of their preaching and teaching orally, as we know, but some things were conveyed in written form: letters of instruction, correction, or revelation; multiple narratives of the life and teachings of Jesus, each aimed at a particular audience under particular circumstances; and even (as a continuation or sequel to one of those narratives) a history of the Church’s spread so far, focusing on the roles of Peter and Paul.

It is generally agreed that all twenty-seven works of our present New Testament were completed by the end of the first century. So at that point, Christians had access to the entire Bible as we know it now. We know from the famous “twisting the Scriptures” bit in one of Peter’s letters that some of the earliest of these documents were already regarded as Scripture by the time the latest ones were written.

Now, of course, at that time there was no formal declaration of exactly what was “in” or “out” of the Christian canon, and there were some corner cases – some of the later-written NT books we now accept were not universally accepted at first, and some churches had liturgical readings from works that didn’t ultimately make the canon (the Didache, the Letter of Clement, etc.) But to say that the Church as a whole did not possess the Scriptures would be disingenuous. As we know, and often have to explain in response to other challenges, the Church usually doesn’t make formal declarations unless there is a strong heterodox view being presented. We know the Jews didn’t formally settle on a single canon until after we Christians came along, and even the Catholic Church didn’t finally set the canon in stone until after the Protestants appeared and started questioning it. So just because we didn’t have an “official” determination of the canon at that point is no grounds for saying that “the Church didn’t have the Bible” then.

Modern scholarship seems to show that the explosion of “alternative” gospels, books of apostolic acts, and so forth did not occur until the second century. By that time it would have been fairly easy for the “mainstream” Christian churches to realize that these works were not of apostolic origin – though I suppose that, just as when rediscovered in our modern day, they would have been presented as “lost” apostolic works, and might thereby have drawn astray some local churches. Certainly there must have been some advantage to the Gnostics of the time of associating their ideas with Christ and the Apostles, since they did so much of it.

Moving on, the fourth century is when Christianity finally came out from under the shadow of periodic persecution. Accompanying that, spurred on by growing heresies like that of Arius, was a great push for Christian leaders to meet together and hammer out details that had previously been left kind of fuzzy. Orthodox understandings of the nature of God and of Christ were worked out in the earliest ecumenical councils. The canon of Scripture was not addressed ecumenically at that time, perhaps indicating that it was not in great dispute. Nevertheless, at the end of the fourth century is when we see the local synods of Carthage and Hippo putting forth the first formal Christian canons of Scripture that we know of. Apart from some combining of books that we now treat as separate, these synods offer the same list of Old and New Testament books that Catholics now acknowledge. Around the same time, Pope Damasus issues a similar list.

This is what Catholic apologists on these boards often argue to be the beginning of the Christian Bible. Certainly, those synods and papal declarations represent the first attempt to settle on at least a regional canon, but to argue (as I’ve seen some of my fellow Catholics do) that therefore the Christians of the earlier centuries “didn’t have the Bible” is disingenuous. They always had the Old Testament and quickly accumulated the New, and the vast majority of what we now accept as Scripture was likewise accepted throughout the Church fairly early on.

Now, understand, I’m a faithful Catholic myself. I fully acknowledge that the Bible is our book, meant for use within the Christian community and in the context of its Tradition and practice, not an independent Guidebook to Everything that just anyone can pick up and use to recreate Christianity from scratch. Likewise, I acknowledge that, while God is the author of Scripture, He composed, revealed, and preserved it through the medium of His Church. The New Testament, and the Christian understanding of the Old Testament that we have recorded in it, are the written form of pre-existing Apostolic Tradition, and the Scriptures continue to be read and understood through the lens of a broader Tradition than what is explicitly written.

Still, it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to speak as though the early Christians had no Scriptures until synods of bishops began issuing official canons. We rightly look askance at those who talk as though the Bible fell from Heaven in its present form, with no involvement by earlier generations of Christians (i.e., the Church). However, others would just as rightly look askance at us for speaking as though a previously-unknown Bible emerged from the 4th-century synods, even if that’s not really what we mean.

Usagi
 
Usagi, I’m not sure if anyone is implying that (though I may be wrong). But truth be told, some books were in high conflict even up to the 4th century.

James, Peter and John Epistles, Revelation, and Hebrews were all highly contentious arguement on their canonicity.

The Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas, as well as St. Clement’s Epistle to Corinth were thought as Scriptural as well for a long time.

It was the authority of the Church that settled these issues. I think why Catholics hold to this truth is to show that the Church had the authority to do this.
 
Well Done Post. Very Nice.👍

We do get into a lot of conflict over these points and much of what you say is true about what constitutes the Books of the Bible being pretty much set by 150-200 AD. All of this I agree with.

However, when we get to talking about “The Bible”, we are usually trying to refer to the collection of books that are bound together today in a single volume. That is “The Bible”. There are sub-sets of the Bible that we call OT and NT. OT obviously predating Christ and NT written after Christ’s Ascencion. The thing we need to remember is that these various texts were not refered to as a bible or as The bible so far as I know. Rather they were refered to as Scripture or Sacred Scripture, and the accepted books would vary from place to place so that no one Church was using the same set of “Sacred God Breathed Texts”.

Today, we have a set of NT books that we all, Catholic and Protestant, agree are the correct books. We have some disagreement on the OT which is a source of some contention here. So the question comes up of when this set of accepted books were compiled into this single volume and standardized across the universal Church as “The Bible” that we use today.

We, as catholics, can easily point to the councils which produced the list Codified Books. Many of our protestant bretheren must somehow refute this if they are to reject the Catholic authoritative origin of the Book they hold in their hands as The Word Of God. It was the Catholic (universal) Church in council, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who determined the codex and promulgated these books as THE Sacred Scripture.

It is important to note that we, as catholics, are not claiming to have written all these NT texts FOR the Bible, though we certainly believe that the Christians who wrote them were catholic. Rather that “The Church,” that single Christian entity in the decades at the end of the fourth century, was responsible for declaring and codifying and copying and spreading and protecting these particular books across all of the Churches of Christendom.
It did this under the divine protection of Christ Himself and acted under the Guidance of the HS.

So - What does all this mean.
It means that, when people speak of “Scripture”, they are talking about books written and accepted over a long period of time. However when they refer to “The Bible” or “The Holy Bible” they are refering to a specific grouping of Books used and accepted by Christian Churches worldwide. This “Book”, or more correctly this “Volume” came into existance as a result of the actions of Holy Mother Church acting with the authority of Christ, and in accordance with the Will of God.

Peace
James
 
Usagi,

I need to do some reviewing of history. It’s been too long. Until such time as I am able to, I wanted to state that I concur with your post overall, but take issue with these few things:
Hey folks,
It is generally agreed that all twenty-seven works of our present New Testament were completed by the end of the first century. So at that point, Christians had access to the entire Bible as we know it now.
Did they. Where? Online? 😉

The printing press did not exist until the 1500’s. Every single work before then had to be copied by hand and was an expensive endeavour in addition to being a time consuming one. Yes, multiple copies of letters from people like Paul did exist. But to imply that “everybody had one” would have been nowhere near true.
We know from the famous “twisting the Scriptures” bit in one of Peter’s letters that some of the earliest of these documents were already regarded as Scripture by the time the latest ones were written.
Do we. The word “scripture” simply means “writing” and it seems that there have been multiple levels of “appreciation” of the scriptures over the centuries, ranging from “pay attention” to “these are special” to a vague sense of divine inspiration to “the infallible word of God”. Yes, Peter groups some of Paul’s writings with what he calls “the other scriptures”. But the question remains as to what Peter meant specifically when he used the word. Was he referencing the understanding that we have today (the infallible word of God)? Or did he have something less definitive in mind, more along the lines of a generally “inspirational” set of spiritual writings (“scriptures”) which could have easily included things such as the Didache, other letters from early Church fathers and writings from Saints?

Further more, as you know, this only begs another question anyway. If Peter was assigning “infallible word” status to Paul’s writings, who was he to make that call? 😉
As we know, and often have to explain in response to other challenges, the Church usually doesn’t make formal declarations unless there is a strong heterodox view being presented. We know the Jews didn’t formally settle on a single canon until after we Christians came along, and even the Catholic Church didn’t finally set the canon in stone until after the Protestants appeared and started questioning it. So just because we didn’t have an “official” determination of the canon at that point is no grounds for saying that “the Church didn’t have the Bible” then.
No, it’s not. But neither is the opposite true. It cannot be said that because there was no infallible pronouncement until the Council of Trent, this means that “everybody knew” what was scriptural and what wasn’t. It may be the case, for example, that the issue was not important enough to address until later times…
Modern scholarship seems to show that the explosion of “alternative” gospels, books of apostolic acts, and so forth did not occur until the second century. By that time it would have been fairly easy for the “mainstream” Christian churches to realize that these works were not of apostolic origin – though I suppose that, just as when rediscovered in our modern day, they would have been presented as “lost” apostolic works, and might thereby have drawn astray some local churches.
The only problem with this statement is that it begs the question: Why does it matter? Who said “apostolic origin” was a necessary requisite for canonicity?
This is what Catholic apologists on these boards often argue to be the beginning of the Christian Bible. Certainly, those synods and papal declarations represent the first attempt to settle on at least a regional canon, but to argue (as I’ve seen some of my fellow Catholics do) that therefore the Christians of the earlier centuries “didn’t have the Bible” is disingenuous. They always had the Old Testament and quickly accumulated the New, and the vast majority of what we now accept as Scripture was likewise accepted throughout the Church fairly early on.
The specifics on this vary. You’re right in pointing out the fact that certain letters were “around” from very early on in the Church’s history and were little if ever disputed as being an “important part of the faith”. It’s true that sometimes Catholic apologists represent the Bible as if it dropped from the sky around 400 A.D., which is not so. However, to suggest more or less the opposite - that the Bible sort of “formed itself as soon as it was written” is also inaccurate. The truth, as it so often the case, lies somewhere in between.

Good post overall.

Peace,

SK
 
Usagi, I’m not sure if anyone is implying that (though I may be wrong). But truth be told, some books were in high conflict even up to the 4th century.

James, Peter and John Epistles, Revelation, and Hebrews were all highly contentious arguement on their canonicity.

The Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas, as well as St. Clement’s Epistle to Corinth were thought as Scriptural as well for a long time.
Yup. I did acknowledge that in the midst of my lengthy post, though I did not give as full a list of the disputed books as you have.
It was the authority of the Church that settled these issues. I think why Catholics hold to this truth is to show that the Church had the authority to do this.
Oh, definitely. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m making the Protestants’ argument for them, here. But of late, I’ve seen more than one discussion with Protestants in which a too-eager Catholic poster drops the “no Bible until 397” datum, and the Protestant then says “Um, you do realize the books were written and being read in the churches well before that, right?” It makes it look as though the Protestant has scored a debate point on the topic of the antiquity of Scripture, even though if we were speaking in more detail we would agree with him.

Usagi
 
Did they. Where? Online? 😉

The printing press did not exist until the 1500’s. Every single work before then had to be copied by hand and was an expensive endeavour in addition to being a time consuming one. Yes, multiple copies of letters from people like Paul did exist. But to imply that “everybody had one” would have been nowhere near true.
Oh, definitely. That is an important point that I neglected to address in my post, thank you.

I was emphasizing the theoretical availability of the entire Bible as we have it now by the end of the 100s, but I should have included a caveat that of course practical considerations meant that not every Christian (and likely not even every local church) would have all the writings in their possession until considerably later.

That is important, since our Protestant brethren often seem to speak as though the Scriptures were just as available in the early years as they are now, creating a distorted view of history in which “Scripture as sole rule of faith” looks far more viable than it actually would have been in practice.
Do we. The word “scripture” simply means “writing” and it seems that there have been multiple levels of “appreciation” of the scriptures over the centuries, ranging from “pay attention” to “these are special” to a vague sense of divine inspiration to “the infallible word of God”. Yes, Peter groups some of Paul’s writings with what he calls “the other scriptures”. But the question remains as to what Peter meant specifically when he used the word. Was he referencing the understanding that we have today (the infallible word of God)? Or did he have something less definitive in mind, more along the lines of a generally “inspirational” set of spiritual writings (“scriptures”) which could have easily included things such as the Didache, other letters from early Church fathers and writings from Saints?
I had not considered that possibility, I must admit. It does appear that the idea of “the Scriptures” as a special collection of divinely inspired works appeared fairly early (consider the famous “All Scripture is God-breathed” passage), undoubtedly based on the similar Jewish understanding of “the Law and the Prophets.”

Hmm, there’s a thought. The third category of the Hebrew Scriptures (besides Law and Prophets) is known as “the Writings.” Maybe that’s where the early Christians picked up the term “Scripture(s),” seeing their own prominent writings as additions to that third part of the quasi-canon?
Further more, as you know, this only begs another question anyway. If Peter was assigning “infallible word” status to Paul’s writings, who was he to make that call? 😉
Well, naturally. I do clarify later on that I am perfectly on board with God having used the Church to show which writings were inspired (both in choosing between possible Jewish canons and in compiling what became the New Testament).

I’d be careful about arguing that Peter is “making the call” in that passage, though. As Popes often do, he seems more to be acknowledging what is already the common Tradition. Certainly a Protestant would not be obliged to read that as any exercise of Peter’s personal authority to canonize writings.
No, it’s not. But neither is the opposite true. It cannot be said that because there was no infallible pronouncement until the Council of Trent, this means that “everybody knew” what was scriptural and what wasn’t. It may be the case, for example, that the issue was not important enough to address until later times…
It’s true that we can’t say “everybody knew,” since we have direct evidence of differing canons (usually larger) among those churches that broke away well before Trent. On the other hand, the fact that (as we often like to point out) those lists from Hippo, Carthage, and Pope Damasus are identical (save for combining multiple books into one in some cases) to the current Catholic canon means that at least there’s been general agreement for a long time. The very fact that the Church didn’t feel the need to close the canon fully until Trent would imply that there was little serious disagreement until the early Protestants started demoting (if not technically “removing” at that point) certain books.
The only problem with this statement is that it begs the question: Why does it matter? Who said “apostolic origin” was a necessary requisite for canonicity?
The Church, of course. I’m a Catholic worried about misleading assertions, remember, not a Protestant arguing for sola scriptura.
The specifics on this vary. You’re right in pointing out the fact that certain letters were “around” from very early on in the Church’s history and were little if ever disputed as being an “important part of the faith”. It’s true that sometimes Catholic apologists represent the Bible as if it dropped from the sky around 400 A.D., which is not so. However, to suggest more or less the opposite - that the Bible sort of “formed itself as soon as it was written” is also inaccurate. The truth, as it so often the case, lies somewhere in between.
Oh, definitely. If I was unclear about that, thank you for helping to clarify. I agree completely that the Bible did not “fall out of the sky” at any time, either all on its own or solely via the actions of the hierarchy. Rather, like most things about the Church, its different parts accumulated over time, winning recognition by the faithful in various places and times. When disputes arose, Church authorities stepped in to settle them, and only when a serious alternative to the longstanding Tradition finally arose did the Church as a whole make a formal declaration that what had long been understood as the canon was not up for change.
Good post overall.
Thankye.

Usagi
 
Well, naturally. I do clarify later on that I am perfectly on board with God having used the Church to show which writings were inspired (both in choosing between possible Jewish canons and in compiling what became the New Testament).
I know. I was just highlighting the issue for the sake of any Protestant observers. 😉
I’d be careful about arguing that Peter is “making the call” in that passage, though. As Popes often do, he seems more to be acknowledging what is already the common Tradition.
How do you figure?
It’s true that we can’t say “everybody knew,” since we have direct evidence of differing canons (usually larger) among those churches that broke away well before Trent. On the other hand, the fact that (as we often like to point out) those lists from Hippo, Carthage, and Pope Damasus are identical (save for combining multiple books into one in some cases) to the current Catholic canon means that at least there’s been general agreement for a long time. The very fact that the Church didn’t feel the need to close the canon fully until Trent would imply that there was little serious disagreement until the early Protestants started demoting (if not technically “removing” at that point) certain books.
From about 400 A.D. to Trent, yes. Before then (which, in this case, is the period that really counts) would be another story…
The Church, of course. I’m a Catholic worried about misleading assertions, remember, not a Protestant arguing for sola scriptura.
I know. Again, just fleshing things out for the other side.

👍

SK
 
The printing press did not exist until the 1500’s. Every single work before then had to be copied by hand and was an expensive endeavour in addition to being a time consuming one. Yes, multiple copies of letters from people like Paul did exist. But to imply that “everybody had one” would have been nowhere near true.
You might also note that when Gutenburg printed his bible, he had to do it in two volumes. So even at that time we did not have A bible, but a collection of volumes that make up the bible. A single volume bible did not appear until pages became thinner (onionskin) or spines were made that could hold greater number of pages.

I don’t know when the first Bible appeared that a person could carry without putting it in a backpack or on your donkey.
 
Further more, as you know, this only begs another question anyway. If Peter was assigning “infallible word” status to Paul’s writings, who was he to make that call? 😉
Ah! Very clever…

It does appear to me, that sola scriptura, even if it was found in the Bible, is a circular argument - this letter is inspired because this other letter says it is, and since they are both in the same collection of books (the Bible) that means that both letters are inspired… well, according to one of the letters.

Scripture is inspired, but we don’t know that from Scripture, but rather from sacred tradition and the magisterium - whose authority comes from Jesus and is witnessed in the Gospels. So you don’t have to first believe that the Scriptures are inspired, you just have to believe that they give a fairly good account of things. Then follows apostolic tradition and the papacy, which can then go on to define the Canon.
  • CB
 
That is important, since our Protestant brethren often seem to speak as though the Scriptures were just as available in the early years as they are now, creating a distorted view of history in which “Scripture as sole rule of faith” looks far more viable than it actually would have been in practice.
Indeed, even in modern days, most Christians can not read the Bible, either because they don’t have one, or because they can’t read at all. So for all the good wishes of Luther and Calvin that everyone should be able to read the Scriptures for themselves, still only a minority can.

And so the Christians in China, Ethipoia or Uganda regardless of their denomination, rely almost exclusively on tradition and the interpretation of their own pastor.
  • CB
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top