No birth control? No fair!

[e_c]

And @e_c, yes, Scripture DOES say something about a father marrying his daughter. It comes in the sections of Deuteronomy and Leviticus dealing with incest. In it, the law also states (simplified) that incest is when you have sex with someone your mother, father, son, or daughter has had sex with.

Yet it is not explicitly mentioned, like umpteen other relationships.

It’s something the Talmud and other exegetical traditions have struggled with. Usually they say it’s “obvious.” So too could we say that contraception is “obvious” and doesn’t need an even more explicit condemnation!

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

1. If I go on a shooting spree, God will keep alive those he wants alive, right? We can just presume on God getting what He wants, so in turn we can do whatever we want. Right?

Exactly!

Here is a joke about the subject:
The Catholic priest, the Protestant preacher and the Jewish rabbi talk about how they use money on the collection plate.

The priest says: “I draw a line on the floor, throw the money in the air. Whatever lands on my side, I keep, whatever lands on the other side belongs to God”.
The preacher says: “I draw a small circle on the floor, and toss the money in the air. Whatever lands in the circle, belongs to God, whatever lands outside the circle, is mine”.
Says the rabbi: “Bah, you are beginners… I simply toss all the money in the air, whatever God wants, he keeps, the rest, which falls back on the floor - is mine”.
But, joke aside, if God definitely does not want to happen, he prevents, the rest he allows. It would not make sense to believe that God allows anything that he does NOT want to happen. Why would God allow something that he does NOT want to happen? If there is something that you definitely do NOT want to happen, and you have the power to prevent it, would you stay on the side and let it happen? Of course not. You would be crazy, if you did. Why do you have such a low opinion about God?

 

[goout]

if God definitely does not want to happen, he prevents, the rest he allows. It would not make sense to believe that God allows anything that he does NOT want to happen. Why would God allow something that he does NOT want to happen? If there is something that you definitely do NOT want to happen, and you have the power to prevent it, would you stay on the side and let it happen? Of course not. You would be crazy, if you did. Why do you have such a low opinion about God?

Observation:
This is a very “Old Testament” fundamentalist point of view. Everything that happens is seen as the direct will and action of God.
Murdered your enemy’s women and children in battle? Must have been God’s will.
River overflowed and killed all the heathens? God wanted them dead (and probably added a heap of suffering along the way just to prove how bad they were).

We might say that God has a permissive will and an active (or perfect) will.

 

[Rau]

… if God definitely does not want to happen, he prevents, the rest he allows. It would not make sense to believe that God allows anything that he does NOT want to happen.

I’d suggest God “definitely wants” to see his law complied with - but it doesn’t happen. To “want” and to “choose to procure” are quite different.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Observation:
This is a very “Old Testament” fundamentalist point of view. Everything that happens is seen as the direct will and action of God.
Murdered your enemy’s women and children in battle? Must have been God’s will.
River overflowed and killed all the heathens? God wanted them dead (and probably added a heap of suffering along the way just to prove how bad they were).

We might say that God has a permissive will and an active (or perfect) will.

I’d suggest God “definitely wants” to see his law complied with - but it doesn’t happen. To “want” and to “choose to procure” are quite different.

Answer to both posts:

I was not talking about what God (allegedly) wants. I was talking about what God (also allegedly) does NOT WANT. Let’s put it this way: If God wants something, but does nothing to make it happen, then God does not want it ENOUGH. In other words, God is indifferent to the outcome. Permissive will = indifference.

 

[Rau]

Answer to both posts:

I was not talking about what God (allegedly) wants. I was talking about what God (also allegedly) does NOT WANT. Let’s put it this way: If God wants something, but does nothing to make it happen, then God does not want it ENOUGH. In other words, God is indifferent to the outcome. Permissive will = indifference.

God “wants” his law obeyed - Christian history is pretty clear about that. God does not choose to force outcomes in this world. That’s right. You can label that behavior as you see fit.

 

[goout]

Answer to both posts:

I was not talking about what God (allegedly) wants. I was talking about what God (also allegedly) does NOT WANT. Let’s put it this way: If God wants something, but does nothing to make it happen, then God does not want it ENOUGH. In other words, God is indifferent to the outcome. Permissive will = indifference.

Reinforces the point I made that you envision a fundamentalist oppressive God that micromanages everything and violates free will.
To be clear, I am not saying you promote that god or believe in it, I’m saying that is your conception of god.
We simply do not share the same vision of who God is.

If your god were God, I would object also.

 

[Bookcat]

VicMorrow17 - made only 2 posts.

Seems rather trollish.

Total Posts: 2
Posts Per Day: 0.00

Should let this thread go.

 

[e_c]

Answer to both posts:

I was not talking about what God (allegedly) wants. I was talking about what God (also allegedly) does NOT WANT. Let’s put it this way: If God wants something, but does nothing to make it happen, then God does not want it ENOUGH. In other words, God is indifferent to the outcome. Permissive will = indifference.

This presupposes an errant view of omnipotence. No, God can’t make a square circle, nor can He give the good of glory without suffering. What evil is allowed is allowed from His unique point of view and with His special wisdom which belongs to Him and His office alone.

Maybe start another thread.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

God “wants” his law obeyed - Christian history is pretty clear about that. God does not choose to force outcomes in this world. That’s right. You can label that behavior as you see fit.

Yes, I call it as I see it. If you permit something that you do not want to happen, then your behavior can be best described as “indifferent”.

Reinforces the point I made that you envision a fundamentalist oppressive God that micromanages everything and violates free will.

On the very contrary, what it means is that God does not object the actions of humans, even the worst ones. He lets our “free will” go rampant and berserk, regardless of the desirability of the outcome. Or, maybe he prefers the outcome as it happens. That would be another rational conclusion.

This presupposes an errant view of omnipotence. No, God can’t make a square circle, nor can He give the good of glory without suffering. What evil is allowed is allowed from His unique point of view and with His special wisdom which belongs to Him and His office alone.

Since he does not explain his special point of view, we are free to interpret his non-action rationally and logically. I never mentioned omnipotence, which is another undefined concept. What does the “glory” have to do with “suffering” is another unanswered question. I would point out that no one has ever been able to present a logical and rational solution to the “problem of evil”.

 

[e_c]

Since he does not explain his special point of view, we are free to interpret his non-action rationally and logically.

I never mentioned omnipotence, which is another undefined concept.

What does the “glory” have to do with “suffering” is another unanswered question.

I would point out that no one has ever been able to present a logical and rational solution to the “problem of evil”.

1. Nature, Scripture, Tradition.
2. You mention implicitly a view of omnipotence when mixed with benevolence and omniscience, namely, an all-powerful God who knows what bad things are happening and can stop them but doesn’t can’t possibly be benevolent. This is not new.
3. Omnipotence is the ability to do whatever one wants which does not imply an internal contradiction, such as drawing a square circle.
4. Start with the quip from Socrates in the Phaedo about the chains on his legs, and we can go from there.
5. A unique good comes from suffering which can’t otherwise be obtained, and which God knows is best for us to have the chance to obtain. If that’s inadequate, you will have to explain why other than saying “it’s illogical.”

 

[ArielRussu]

1. A unique good comes from suffering which can’t otherwise be obtained, and which God knows is best for us to have the chance to obtain. If that’s inadequate, you will have to explain why other than saying “it’s illogical.”

Ok, so someone who commits suicide because they can’t take the suffering God allows in there life, for the ‘betterment’ of that individual, is supposed to be a positive how? Just because suffering happens doesn’t mean it should be encouraged and not stopped and even prevented if possible.

 

[Lea101]

My 2 cents:

I know a lot of people do not want to get children right after they get married. They want to enjoy the time they have together before having to deal with diapers. For some, that’s traveling and sipping alcohol. That’s fine.

I personally wouldn’t want kids right after, unless I get married at an older age and my ovaries are about to shrivel up.

And yes, for couples who aren’t ready for kids or a woman who got raped, etc…kids can be seen as a punishment. Yes, that phrase is offensive, but it IS a valid feeling for those who are not ready yet. No point whining about what OP says…even the most loving parents can be against having kids at the start!

I was an oops baby, parents were probably devastated, we have no money to travel at all. Not even a random family outing in the country. My family is probably what you are afraid of

But listen, there are bigger families than mine and they are way happier and they get by. Don’t be that scared. Plus I would suggest maybe saving up instead of going on many trips. Your kids will appreciate it.

You don’t have to have a big family though…NFP can be used to space out your children…i know this gets debated but from what I was told here, you need a reason deemed important by you and your spouse (for some it could be that you are not financially stable enough). Don’t quote me on that. But from what I see here on other threads, you don’t have to have kids right away as long as you don’t abort/use abc but instead use nfp.

I’m not married yet so I don’t know the struggle of NFP but yes, I do feel annoyed that the woman has to essentially do everything. But hey, we are the ones that are pregnant.

Pills are poison, condoms break. Nfp has a similar ‘success’ rate as ABC, i think. I don’t know why you are afraid.

 

[e_c]

Ok, so someone who commits suicide because they can’t take the suffering God allows in there life, for the ‘betterment’ of that individual, is supposed to be a positive how? Just because suffering happens doesn’t mean it should be encouraged and not stopped and even prevented if possible.

Often, when we are able to alleviate suffering, we ought.

Sometimes, we ought not.

Sometimes we are not able to alleviate it except through sin. So it ought not be alleviated in that case.

The best kind of love and trust is made and proven in times of suffering, not in times of pleasure and ease.

 

[SecretCatholic]

Yes, I call it as I see it. If you permit something that you do not want to happen, then your behavior can be best described as “indifferent”.

God’s allowance of evil is frustrating for us, but it does not necessarily indicate indifference nor approval. In fact, God specifically communicated to the ancient Jews that he did NOT approve of evil acts and commanded that they not be done. He also entered into the world in human form and continued teaching while he lived and entering into our suffering and suffered great evil for our benefit. That doesn’t sound like an evil-approving or indifferent God to me.

Please see catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/the-problem-of-evil for one of many, many articles about the problem of evil.

For a longer, more detailed treatment see here: reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil

Ok, so someone who commits suicide because they can’t take the suffering God allows in there life, for the ‘betterment’ of that individual, is supposed to be a positive how? Just because suffering happens doesn’t mean it should be encouraged and not stopped and even prevented if possible.

We believe that God tolerates evil to bring about good. So, for example, he tolerates evil acts by men for the good of free will. Additionally, although he does not will evil acts, he is able to work them into his plan so that good may come of them. God is glorified by good, by seeing his creatures “fully alive” and prosperous. And so, in a sense, suffering can work to glorify God by bringing out more virtue and good in men.

Someone who has suffered and been victorious is much better for it than someone who has never suffered and never been tested. That is true at least in this world, with these fallen natures that we have.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

God’s allowance of evil is frustrating for us, but it does not necessarily indicate indifference nor approval. In fact, God specifically communicated to the ancient Jews that he did NOT approve of evil acts and commanded that they not be done. He also entered into the world in human form and continued teaching while he lived and entering into our suffering and suffered great evil for our benefit. That doesn’t sound like an evil-approving or indifferent God to me.

Please see catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/the-problem-of-evil for one of many, many articles about the problem of evil.

For a longer, more detailed treatment see here: reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil

We believe that God tolerates evil to bring about good. So, for example, he tolerates evil acts by men for the good of free will. Additionally, although he does not will evil acts, he is able to work them into his plan so that good may come of them. God is glorified by good, by seeing his creatures “fully alive” and prosperous. And so, in a sense, suffering can work to glorify God by bringing out more virtue and good in men.

Someone who has suffered and been victorious is much better for it than someone who has never suffered and never been tested. That is true at least in this world, with these fallen natures that we have.

None of these are new. They have been refuted innumerable times.

Of all the apologists only Rabbi Henry Kushner gave a valid analysis in his book: “When bad things happen to good people”. Worth to read it.

 

[SecretCatholic]

None of these are new. They have been refuted innumerable times.

None of your arguments are new either.

But you are correct, your arguments have been refuted innumerable times. In fact, it is the consensus among philosophers today that the intellectual problem of evil fails to prove that any contradiction exists between God’s attributes.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

None of your arguments are new either.

But you are correct, your arguments have been refuted innumerable times. In fact, it is the consensus among philosophers today that the intellectual problem of evil fails to prove that any contradiction exists between God’s attributes.

Ever since when do we decide philosophical problems (or any other logical problems) by voting?

 

[Rau]

Ever since when do we decide philosophical problems (or any other logical problems) by voting?

The inclination to vote often reflects the inability to decide the matter.

 

[SecretCatholic]

Ever since when do we decide philosophical problems (or any other logical problems) by voting?

Consensus does not decide truth. But rather truth can create consensus, if it is honestly sought. If most scientists agree that there was a big bang, it is reasonable that I believe them by default. While I don’t believe that an appeal to authority or consensus is the ultimate say in the matter of any truth, neither do I believe that individual judgement is the ultimate say.

It should give you pause when a majority of people who study these philosophical problems come to a certain conclusion. Furthermore, they are not merely stating so- You can look at their work! Or you can repeat your arguments and counter-arguments as if they have never been said before and as if they were the defeaters to theism that you incorrectly believe them to be.