No brats allowed!

[Le_Cracquere]

Rob's Wife:

The poster wasn’t saying let the kids go nuts. She was saying that even normally well-behaved dc have their less angelic moments.

That rather goes without saying, and when it’s what the speaker means, it does go without saying. In my limited experience, though, this observation is inevitably offered to someone who raises the slightest objection to a child’s public misbehaviour, no matter how grave or disruptive. Hard not to think, then, that “let the kids go nuts” is precisely what the speaker is saying. Perhaps this time is the exception.
Rob's Wife:

I find the longer I’ve been parenting the less critical I am of others. If for no other reason than I hope they give me the same attitude when we’re having a bad time and it shows…
[snip]
It comforts me to know that even if I was a perfect parent (as He certainly is) able to design my own children, it still wouldn’t guarantee me a well-behaved and obediant kid!

I applaud your uncompromising stance against perfectionism and rigidity in child-rearing. I confess I wasn’t aware that unruly children weren’t receiving widespread benefit of the doubt; could have sworn, in fact, that a surfeit of control and criticality towards children’s public behaviour was the very last problem that we suffered from. (As with the moderns for whom “hypocrisy” is the cardinal sin, we hate most those vices that least threaten us.)

Neither did I realize that my upbringing was so deprived and slavish–if you’re right, then my brother & I were treated like so many household pets. If fact, the extent to which we were successfully “controlled” and “trained” makes me question our humanity–if children are as you say, there’s simply no way that we should have responded to the sort of things that we did, in fact, respond to. If anything peculiar turns up in my DNA test, I’ll let the list know.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

sigh you were doing so well and then you ruined it at the end. What determines whether a child should be is the parent’s realistic knowledge of their own kid, not your opinion based on every other kid. We do take our children to very fancy restaurants and stage plays and have never given much thought to it. If a kid has enough attention span to go nearly brain dead in front of a tv or movie theatre for a couple of hours, they can darn well behave at a fancy resturant or stage play.

---

I ageee that it is possible. Some kids are ready for stage plays and the Nutcracker at 2. I have no doubt that yours behave beautifully.

Some kids are not read for such heady activity, and some parents are never ready to take their children to such activity, as they will not enforce good behavior.

This baby I saw was not ready for such an activity. Her mother was not really ready to take her to such a performance. They were were there for “effect”.

 

[crystal]

I can say that when I was teaching I noticed that the longer I stayed in it the more children with behavior problems there were every year. I would ask around and all the teachers agreed. I think there are many reasons for this not just bad parenting.

Many kids don’t get to run around their neigborhoods with each other all the time like we did. Children need to have daily exercise outside in the form or play that allows them to develop their minds, imaginations and bodies and burn off energy. PE is too structured to count and is no longer a daily subject in most schools anyway. Recess isn’t enough either though it helps.

Kids need boundaries. They want them but will test them until they know what’s what. Many parents can’t set boundaries with their kids because they don’t know how or they work too much or they’re going through divorce etc… This really isn’t their fault. Learning to set boundaries without being abusive to kids is usually something that needs to be studied and both parents have to provide a united front.

Also, kids aren’t the only ones that I think are more out of control these days. Many adults are and I think it’s often for the same reasons that I stated above.

My 2 cents.
Crystal

 

[mrs_abbott]

My mother does this alot too. “She’s little, let her do it!”

It’s as if people have no idea how to raise kids. They see me and say in one breath that my kid is well behaved but I am definatly parenting wrong and they wonder why their kid is a brat.

How do these people think my child GOT well-behaved in the first place?? They have to be taught to be that way!

I read your post and wanted to run over and give you a big (((hug))) because I know exactly what you are saying. My husband’s niece runs wild all the time and never listens to anyone because her mother (my sil) doesn’t care enough to keep tabs on her. When I try and discipline my son in front of her when he starts acting up, she just looks at me and says “what did you do that for? he wasn’t doing anything wrong.” It’s frustrating and upsetting when it comes from someone OTHER than maybe a spouse who’s invovled in the daily discipline of your children.
I’ve discovered that there’s so many people with so many theories on how to raise kids. I say those theories are bull and you need to formulate your own based on your situation with your own child. Each and every family is different.

 

[Syele]

I read your post and wanted to run over and give you a big (((hug))) because I know exactly what you are saying. My husband’s niece runs wild all the time and never listens to anyone because her mother (my sil) doesn’t care enough to keep tabs on her. When I try and discipline my son in front of her when he starts acting up, she just looks at me and says “what did you do that for? he wasn’t doing anything wrong.” It’s frustrating and upsetting when it comes from someone OTHER than maybe a spouse who’s invovled in the daily discipline of your children.
I’ve discovered that there’s so many people with so many theories on how to raise kids. I say those theories are bull and you need to formulate your own based on your situation with your own child. Each and every family is different.

Thansk for the hug there.

My mom is starting to learn to keep her mouth shut. But I’m always amazed at the gall of strangers! My reward is when we ar ein the Grocery store (Or some other public place), we see some kids misbehaivng and Sami tells me “Mom! look at that kid! Why don’t they act nicer?!?” She gets it.

 

[bluerose]

Except for the overall tone of the article (implying that all children are a nuisance PERIOD), I have to agree that with the way discipline has, for the most part, gone by the wayside there should be some places that are off limits to children. This has nothing to do so much as with the children themselves but their parents who are clueless about how children should behave in certain places!

Personal example: my husband’s parents own a religious gift shop in a nearby resort community. They have a lot of fragile and expensive items–crucifixes, statues, etc. Across the courtyard from them is an ice cream shop. Despite the warning signs posted on the doors–“No Food or Drink Allowed in Store” and “Parents, Please Do Not Allow Your Children to Handle the Merchandise”–every day, they have at least one person (usually an adult) try to walk in with a dripping triple-scoop or a child come charging through the door like the proverbial bull in a china shop. And if Mom and Dad say anything like “Please hold your child’s hand” or “Please don’t bring that ice cream in here”, they get dirty looks and usually a huffy “And you call yourself a Christian!” They’ve been told they’re going to hell for being so mean (i.e., they just took an $85 Italian alabaster statue of Our Lady of Grace or a $70 leather-bound family Bible out of a two-year-old’s ice-cream smeared fingers). They’ve been accused of hating children (they have 16 grandchildren, all of whom are welcome in the shop whenever they like because they know not to touch.) They’ve been told that they don’t know how to appreciate their customers, while the customers’ children are beating on the glass display cases with dirty hands, throwing a ball to each other (which I’m sure their parents bought them because they were “bored” going shopping), and running and screaming, weaving around if not crashing into other shoppers who would like to buy an $85 statue or $70 Bible without the ice cream stains.

There are toy stores up and down the street which welcome children to come in and trash the place if they like (at least, judging by the appearance of the interiors, that’s what it looks like). But there are boutiques and gift shops that scream “Warning: your kids will be bored to tears coming in here!” and that will be the place where you will find kids playing hide-and-seek among $200 one-of-a-kind outfits, throwing tantrums on the polished hardwood floor of a gourmet shop that cause $45 bottles of wine to shimmy toward the edge of the shelves, and picking up $$$ blown glass vases and Lalique statues to “show” Mom.

And the “you break it, you bought it” policy? Yeah, right! If something gets broken, unless Mom or Dad sees the action take place, they usually find the pieces tucked behind something else (after the perpetrators make a suddenly quiet, hasty departure).

I work at WalMart, which hardly has the quality of items my in-laws carry. But that is where kids learn this attitude from their parents. “Oh, this stuff is cheap, they can mess with it, and if it breaks, so what? This company can afford the loss!” Maybe they think the same of my in-laws or the other merchants in the downtown area, but it’s not true. My own kids aren’t allowed to play with the toys at WalMart, just as they aren’t allowed to touch anything that doesn’t belong to them at another person’s home.

Now hear this loud and clear: RESTAURANTS AND STORES ARE NOT “PUBLIC” PLACES, LIKE PARKS OR LIBRARIES. They are PRIVATE businesses; the stuff in stores does NOT belong to anyone who walks in the door UNLESS THEY PAY FOR IT FIRST! People who do not realize this are the ones who can’t understand why a store owner gets bent out of shape when Junior breaks something (“he’s just 3-years-old, it was a mistake, and then they expected me to pay for it! Isn’t that RUDE?”)

What my in-laws want is for the people who come in to buy a special gift to find that item in good condition–not chipped or cracked, not smudged or smeared, not torn or wrinkled. They want their customers to enjoy their shopping experience, listening to the soft music play as they browse among the items that aren’t usually available in other stores (we have customers come from hundreds of miles away to find certain items and special gifts.) They want their workdays to be pleasant and to spend them helping people find what they’re looking for, not policing other people’s children.

Whew! That needed to be said for a long time. I’m glad other people on this forum agree… although I’m sure those are the people who would be welcomed anywhere, anytime… even with their children!

BlueRose

 

[jmcrae]

BlueRose;

Yes, I understand you perfectly.

There are a lot of people who have no idea where they are when they come into a store. We were talking about this in Religion class one time, on the subject of “What is theft?” and the kids were saying, “But how can it be theft to break or take something from a store? It doesn’t belong to anyone, yet!”

I had to explain to them that the store owners actually buy those things from the people who make them. The things are owned by the people who own the store, and made available for other people to buy from them.

They still didn’t get it, though - they wanted to know why the people who make things have to be paid for their work. They really do think that someone out there is living for free, and that the only reason we have to pay for things is because someone out there is very greedy - and that it doesn’t matter if you break something or take it without paying for it, because they can bump the cost back up the line to this mythical person who is living for free and doesn’t really need the money.

 

[bluerose]

Now that IS scary!

And where are these attitudes being learned? Hmm… so who are the REAL brats?

My mother-in-law has always maintained that if the adults did their jobs properly, she wouldn’t have to post signs about children’s behavior!

BlueRose

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

When I say “in public” I mean “not in the privacy of one’s home, where they might have a little leeway.” Of course stores are private establishments, and the owners set the rules. Your in-laws are saints, saints I tell you, to put up with that kind of abuse!

 

[Asella]

I have a few points to make on this subject.

1. A lot of children misbehave because the parents don’t know how to be parents. Example: I have heard a TON of parents refer to their child as “Buddy.” It must be a new trend.
   “Hey, buddy, don’t touch that.”
   “Hey, buddy, quit pulling your sister’s hair.”
   “Hey, bud, come back here!”
   How are kids supposed to take their parents seriously if their parents refer to them as “Buddy”? They address their child the same way they would address a friend, with no authority in their voice. If the parents would try to be less of a friend to the child, and try to be more of a parent, the kid might actually listen to them for once. As a result, there would be better behaved children.
2. I think it’s OK for certain places to not allow children. I think this should be done out of courtesy to others. For example, I use a public swimming pool that has adults-only hours. This is nice because it can be very hard for adults to swim laps in the pool when there are half a dozen little ones leaping all over in the pool. It’s also nice to go to a fancier restaurant and not have a child throwing a tantrum at the next table. Don’t get me wrong, I like kids, but just because I like them doesn’t mean I want to be around them constantly.
3. The article briefly touched on how museums are clogged with strollers, and I have to admit, the whole stroller issue is a personal pet peeve of mine. Although the article was about the behavior of children, one thing that is almost worse than an unruly child is having to work your way around a gigantic stroller. Why are strollers so huge?? Aren’t little umbrella strollers sufficient?? Some of these strollers are almost as big as my car. It’s ridiculous. Same goes for the “Shopper in training” carts. Kids operate these carts as if they are intoxicated, constantly bumping into me or my cart. If anything should be banned, it should be those little carts!!

OK, I may have gotten a bit off topic, but the article just brought these few random thoughts into my head. That’s just my two cents on the issue.

 

[tamccrackine]

Now that IS scary!

And where are these attitudes being learned? Hmm… so who are the REAL brats?

My mother-in-law has always maintained that if the adults did their jobs properly, she wouldn’t have to post signs about children’s behavior!

BlueRose

Your entire situation/story made me remember what my MIL/FIL had on their office door. (The ran a ruby mine in NC)… “Unattended children will be worked as slaves. Please keep your children under supervision and control at all times. Management has final authority.” Now keep in mind that this place was in the middle of the backwoods of NC yet they expected children to obey civil rules. People were there on retirement, or vacation, or just a weekend getaway and they certainly didn’t want Jr or Missy to be ruining their weekend with the screeching, tossing rocks, splashing in the flume line, using foul language, etc.

My three children (6 and under) walk into a store and immediately lock their hands behind their backs. I’ve been commented too, from both angles… the store owners tell me I’ve got the best behaved kids they’ve ever seen walk into a store because they don’t touch. The other side tells me I’m too harsh. I could careless about the latter. I personally think some of them are jealous because my children aren’t embarrassing the tar out of me.

There is a time and place to take kids to more “adult” fares. I recently went to Vegas as a kind of honeymoon when my DH came home from Iraq on R&R. I was beyond shocked to see so many small children. We did NOT bring our three children as that place in its totality is NOT for kids! Smut and pornographic images EVERYWHERE, kids running amok in the casinos, my DH and I went to a dinner that was obviously going to cost more than McDonalds yet a family chose to bring their two small children (4 being the oldest I can safely assume) and both children were so unruly with clinking the china, spilling the water, tossing their silverware on the floor, yelling, one threw bread at the other and it missed its intended mark and landed on the table next to them which had a lovely couple trying to enjoy their dinner, it was such a blessing to see the Matra’D (sp?) finally whisper something to the parents and dad took the kids out. Certain shows had to advertise all over the place that children under 12 were NOT allowed (and it wasn’t just because the performance was scary or late at night).

Anyway… I agree with BlueRose… the learning proper ettiquette/ social behavior starts at home.

 

[jmcrae]

I am also astounded at the places I see little kids. My mother and I attended an operatic performance last weekend, and there were some very small children there. I didn’t notice them misbehaving (my mother and I were too busy misbehaving, ourselves - the opera itself was quite terrible, and we kept laughing in all the wrong places), but it just seemed awfully late at night for little kids, to me.

What ever happened to Wee Willie Winky, running through the town,
Up stairs and down stairs in his night-gown,
Tapping at the window, crying at the lock,
“Are the children in their bed? for now it’s eight o’clock!!”

A sign at the zoo: “Naughty children will be eaten.” with a picture of a hungry lion.

 

[katybird]

I usually take my kid outside during Mass at least once, often twice. I have pretty high standards for behavior during Mass: no excessive noise, no crawling under the pew, no touching the hair or backs of people behind us, no leaving the pew. The goal is to train him to sit still and quiet on his butt, but he’s only 2.5, so that’s not realistic, yet. DH has laxer standards. He tends to compare our son to the behavior of other children. I don’t think that’s good enough. I want a kid who at least knows he’s supposed to sit as still as his temperment and age allows, and who has no expectations of being allowed to yell, leave the pew, or play with toys. (Looking at a picture book would be fine by me, up until the age when they can at least pretend to follow what’s going on.)

I was taking him out before Mass even got started once and the priest was in the vestibule and told me that he really, truly didn’t mind small children being noisy. I appreciated that, truly, but the truth is that it bothers ME and I know it bothers other people.

Remember the descriptions of long, boring Sunday afternoons in Little House on the Prarie books? Poor little Almanzo had to stay seated in a slippery horsehair chair, not allowed to do anything but read the Bible. He hated Sundays, but the thing of value was that he learned that, sometimes, you just do things you’re not thrilled to do. That can bear fruit in other areas of life - a sense of duty, the ability to put up with things we don’t much like, the ability to be polite even when you don’t want to.

I wasn’t raised with the best manners. I’ve learned many things as an adult. I didn’t know that you weren’t supposed to begin eating until everyone had been served. I didn’t know that you really do have to sit and appear interested when someone else is speaking, no matter how boring and unimportant what they’re saying really is. I had to learn as an adult that being polite and decent often means doing things we’d rather not do.

So, sitting still in Church is one of the first lessons I’m instilling in my son.

 

[bluerose]

In one of the threads that was lost in “The Crash”, I related the story about how I got my nieces and nephews (then about ages 6 and on down) to sit still in church. After an exhausting round of their dad taking them out of church one by one, when we got home I said, “Let’s read!” and I got out “Little House in the Big Woods”, and read the chapter about Sundays–how Laura and Mary had to sit still and listen to the Bible stories, no running, no yelling, no paper dolls, no reading for fun, no anything and the chapter in the book (I forget which one) where they had to remember the text that was discussed during the sermon, etc. By the time I finished, I had four little pairs of huge eyes around me. I closed the book and said, “Now, would you rather sit quietly and behave in church for ONE HOUR on Sunday, or would you rather have a “Little House” Sunday next week?”

We never had problems after that. The one tough case we finally got through to with this: after Mass, he wanted to watch a video. I said, “no”. He said, “why not?” I said, “because you couldn’t sit still for one hour in church quietly, how can you sit still for two hours here at home?” Next Sunday, he “proved” he could sit still for one hour so he got to watch his video (but Dad made him “prove” it every week… he was four at the time and it was a great game to him… now he’s fourteen and thinking about a religious vocation!)

BlueRose

 

[bluerose]

Speaking of signs posted in stores, my husband and I saw this one in a shop in Estes Park, CO about 15 years ago. There was a shop that specialized in collectable figurines: Lalique, Hummel, etc. and hand-blown glass and Swarovski crystal. *** I ***was almost afraid to go in there! Just outside the door was a little “corral” about two and half feet high with a sign that said, “Parents, please leave your children here before entering the store”. At first, I was shocked, but after we went in, someone else in the store commented to the owner that they couldn’t imagine people bringing kids into a shop like this. The owner said they used to have the standard polite, “Please watch your children” signs, but no one paid any attention. Another shopper said, “But isn’t it hurting your business?” “Not at all!” said the owner. “For one thing, a lot of people who would buy here were put off by kids running wild, the people with the wild kids weren’t buying anything, and I’ve been able to stop taking my ulcer medication!”

It is awful that people have to feel this way about children… especially since it isn’t the children’s fault! But it seems like a lot of parents aren’t “getting it”.

BlueRose

 

[mrs_abbott]

Speaking of signs posted in stores, my husband and I saw this one in a shop in Estes Park, CO about 15 years ago. There was a shop that specialized in collectable figurines: Lalique, Hummel, etc. and hand-blown glass and Swarovski crystal. *** I ***was almost afraid to go in there! Just outside the door was a little “corral” about two and half feet high with a sign that said, “Parents, please leave your children here before entering the store”.

That store is still there with all its glass collectibles. I don’t think the sign was there (we were just there in May of this year) because we saw children in there with their parents. I did see a sign by the front door that said “you are responsible for paying for all merchandise that you and/or your party break”. I think that’s fair enough.

 

[DaveBj]

This is a great thread!

Our two boys (now in their 30s) were both very good in public, and frankly I don’t know what specifically we did to get them that way. Older son has given us two grandchildren, and they, too, are excellent in public.

On the other hand, I do frequently see bratty kids in WalMart or other places. To tell the truth, that doesn’t bother me a bit. In fact, it makes me smile. Why? Because I know they’re not going home with me.

But for those who see a deterioration in children’t behavior in general, I offer the following poem that I first read back in the '50s.

“My grandpa notes the world’s worn cogs
And says we’re going to the dogs.
His grandpa in his house of logs
Said things were going to the dogs.
His grandpa in the Flemish bogs
Said things were going to the dogs.
His grandpa in his hairy togs
Said things were going to the dogs.
But this is what I wish to state.
The dogs have had an awful wait.”
-Anon., “The Hymn of the Pessimist”

DaveBj

 

[CatholicSam]

I don’t get annoyed with parents who give in to their little kids’ tantrums and whining. They’ll reap what they sow I just try not to smile too big and think to myself, “I’m glad I’m not taking *that *little boy home with me tonight!” or “I bet *they’re *going to have fun at home tonight!”

 

[Island_Oak]

Yes, I thought that was tacky and rude, considering the woman was from some natural foods place. What, kids aren’t natural enough for ya, lady?

Worse…the quote came from a public relations consultant. I guess that kind of derogatory labeling is her idea of solid P.R.!!! We can all agree that it’s no fun having ill-mannered, undisciplined, self-centered people inflict their rude behaviour on others (whatever their age), but you’d expect a polished P.R. “professional” to be a little more adept in her public statements. After all some of her clients might just fall into the “breeder” category. What a moron!

“Josephine Charlton, a public relations consultant in West Hollywood, Calif., says she loves children but feels they are becoming public nuisances nonetheless. Her local Whole Foods has been overrun by “breeders” with an oversized sense of entitlement, she says…”

 

[Black_Jaque]

If a society allows the parents to discipline their children in whatever manner the parents choose, then that society has the right to expect some fairly decent behavior.

However, when a society instills fear in the parents that if the parents are too harsh on their children, Social Services will be visiting, then that society has no right to expect anything but bratty behavior.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. You reap what you sow.

I do agree that there are some places that will stretch a child’s dicipline. You just have to have a sense of what and where you can bring you child.

The rest of the public must also have a sense of what and where a parent must bring their children. If you get bent out of shape because you encounter a brat in the grocery store you need a good slap back into reality. However, I think you should be safe from bad behavior at an opera. The family shopping must get done, on the other hand, no one will starve if mother doesn’t go to the opera. Sunday mass is obligatory in the Catholic Church therefore we better have some tolerance for children’s behavior.

I think we stand right in the middle of the behavior spectrum. I sit at mass surrounded by four kids. The 10 and 8 year olds stand, sit and kneel when appropriate and read and respond when appropriate. The 6 year old quietly figits, occasionally whispering questions in my ear. The 3 year old climbs under the pew, on the pew, looks backwards, upside down, and crawls along the pew between family members. Occasionally the 3 year old blurts out a laugh. The 3 year old is not allowed to invade non-family member’s space ala going into the isle or other pews is out of bounds. If the 3 year old does not like these boundaries and makes a vocal fuss Ma takes him to the cry-room.

Now, I’m sure there’s some folks who are just aghast that my 3 year old is allowed to crawl all over the pew. On the other hand there we sit, a living testimony that as children age they behave better, given patient discipline.