No catholic anymore

[CMatt25]

'zactly. And that’s what you have to tell him. You’re walking by your faith, brother, and keep it up.

Well no, not exactly PR. I don’t have to say the part about “keep it up” if I don’t believe he should be cheating. But you already agree I can’t force him to believe as I believe. I’m not going to pluck his eye out while I cut off my hands and feet. At some point I have to say brother, that is your faith. We will have to agree to disagree until in faith He, Who calls Himself the Truth, comes again and we shall then know. In the meantime God bless all of us merged with Him along our faith walks. United in Him :grouphug: He knows our hearts. And God bless all His created chldren everywhere whose hearts He knows as well. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guan, and somehow I knew you were going to end up accusing moral relativism even though the ultimate truth is not relative.

Don’t tease me like that, CM! I know you are proud to be a moral relativist. I was so amazed that I saved the post somewhere.

The point you always have seemed to misunderstand though is that what you and Mother Angelica describe is for instance yours and her faith as it is the faith of the most faithful Catholic.  But the keyword is still faith. :thumbsup:  God bless you Guan in yours and peace to you always and to all as we journey in faith.  :grouphug:

No, CM, I don’t misunderstand. I just know that the Revealed Truth of God stands outside and above any one person’s faith, or even a consensus of person’s faith. This objective Truth would exist the same whether Mother Angelica, myself, or all other Catholics that embrace the One Faith had never been born. The reality of what is sin, and what is not sin is not a product of any one person’s faith experience, but the immutable revelation of God to mankind.

 

[guanophore]

:sad_yes: I believe it is too PR. So our understandings and faiths jive on that one. :yup:

But it will still be a sin even if you don’t agree, CM. It does not cease becoming a sin just because a consensus of individuals decide it is not.

 

[CMatt25]

Don’t tease me like that, CM! I know you are proud to be a moral relativist. I was so amazed that I saved the post somewhere.

No, CM, I don’t misunderstand. I just know that the Revealed Truth of God stands outside and above any one person’s faith, or even a consensus of person’s faith. This objective Truth would exist the same whether Mother Angelica, myself, or all other Catholics that embrace the One Faith had never been born. The reality of what is sin, and what is not sin is not a product of any one person’s faith experience, but the immutable revelation of God to mankind.

I don’t know I’d say proud to be a moral relativist Guan. I am at peace though knowing I know the difference between faith and belief vs absolutely knowing with 100% absolute certainty. But now if this is how you define a moral relativist then yes. But to me a moral relativist is one who believes relative truths exist. That’s not me. As you also know I believe ultimately there is one truth. I just believe God knows the heart as we seek it. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

No one is saying when someone follows their conscience that the person is infallible. I know I never claim infallibility.

That is ok, though, because Jesus placed His infallible guidance in the Church, so that we as individuals never need to doubt. We can embrace His revelation of Truth that was deposited "once for all to the saints’.

 In the meantime we walk by our faith understandings, not by sight.

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

 

[CMatt25]

That is ok, though, because Jesus placed His infallible guidance in the Church, so that we as individuals never need to doubt. We can embrace His revelation of Truth that was deposited "once for all to the saints’.

To use a word from my friend PR, Guan, 'zactly. That is you faith.

 

[guanophore]

To use a word from my friend PR, Guan, 'zactly. That is you faith.

No, CM, it is an historical fact.

It would still be an historical fact if I did not believe it. In fact, for many years, I did not believe it. But my lack of faith did not make the Revelation of God any less real.

 

[PRmerger]

Well no, not exactly PR. I don’t have to say the part about “keep it up” if I don’t believe he should be cheating.

Well, then, Matt, what’s he doing wrong? Is he not following the exact way you do to come to an understanding of how to walk in the Lord?

What is he doing wrong?

 

[CMatt25]

No, CM, it is an historical fact.

It would still be an historical fact if I did not believe it. In fact, for many years, I did not believe it. But my lack of faith did not make the Revelation of God any less real.

But Guan here is where you still seem to misunderstand me despite all of our multiple conversations. I know I have explained it this way before. But Guan, before you can even begin to believe it is fact, you must place faith in a Creator, faith in the NT story, faith in Catholic interpretation of the Revelation and faith in all She says and interprets, faith in ECFs and in how She interprets them… Peace be with you Guan always in faith. God bless!

 

[CMatt25]

Well, then, Matt, what’s he doing wrong? Is he not following the exact way you do to come to an understanding of how to walk in the Lord?

What is he doing wrong?

PR if he is wrong, then perhaps he has not exactly arrived at full understanding. You seem to miss my point apparently that he and I are human and do not proclaim infallibilty. Some of us who believe, I think might be most comfortable with everything spelled out and need to convince ourselves we think we truly know matters of faith with absolute certainty. Others of us are ok with not having to think finite human minds can know with 100% absolute certainty all of these matters of faith. And we trust in Him to know our hearts and place ourselves upon His mercy and love. God bless you PR, my friend, in Christ. And united in faith and belief in Him let us :hug1: in peace.

Maybe PR and Guan, the thread can go back now to what we should call Catholics.

 

[Lapey]

But Guan here is where you still seem to misunderstand me despite all of our multiple conversations. I know I have explained it this way before. But Guan, before you can even begin to believe it is fact, you must place faith in a Creator, faith in the NT story, faith in Catholic interpretation of the Revelation and faith in all She says and interprets, faith in ECFs and in how She interprets them… Peace be with you Guan always in faith. God bless!

Look at all you have listed here. Unless I misunderstand you, you believe and follow your conscience more than you believe the New testament, the ECF’s, the Church’s interpretation of all this and all of history that backs up the Church’s statements of fact.

To the OP’s point, we must understand that once a person is brought into the Church, they are always Catholic. They may not be in good standing or lapsed, but Catholic for sure, you too CMatt and Esdra!!!

But with that comes much responsibility to learn the faith, to form one’s conscience to move towards the fullness of the faith. Otherwise you choose by your own free will to reject Christ. Still Catholic, but in name only.

Judas was as much an apostle as any other, but he chose to go his own route. He chose to ignore the Grace of Jesus Christ.

I love when a person I am talking to tells me, “I used to be Catholic.” My regular responce comes with a smile and a chuckel, “you are still Catholic, you can’t wash it off!”

 

[CMatt25]

Look at all you have listed here. Unless I misunderstand you, you believe and follow your conscience more than you believe the New testament, the ECF’s, the Church’s interpretation of all this and all of history that backs up the Church’s statements of fact.

To the OP’s point, we must understand that once a person is brought into the Church, they are always Catholic. They may not be in good standing or lapsed, but Catholic for sure, you too CMatt and Esdra!!!

But with that comes much responsibility to learn the faith, to form one’s conscience to move towards the fullness of the faith. Otherwise you choose by your own free will to reject Christ. Still Catholic, but in name only.

Judas was as much an apostle as any other, but he chose to go his own route. He chose to ignore the Grace of Jesus Christ.

I love when a person I am talking to tells me, “I used to be Catholic.” My regular responce comes with a smile and a chuckel, “you are still Catholic, you can’t wash it off!”

Yes you misunderstand me, Lapey, if you think I do not believe in the NT story such as Christ’s death and resurrection and His Gospel of love, peace, His concern for the poor and sick. His ascension into heaven where He is seateth at the righthand of God the Father. Until He comes again.

But in line with the thread as to what to call, regardless of what the Church says about once brought into, Lapey, neither Esdra nor I can use the term Catholic with or without an adjective for identification in our profiles. For Esdra it is by his choice he does not and I respect his faith and his choice not to. But hmm. Can’t be washed off? Well I agree with you in the eyes of the Church it can not be washed off.

Lapey, if by forrming one’s conscience to fit the faith which I have learned, you mean turning my conscience entirely over to other humans, I have to tell you, Lapey, I’m just a little uncomfortable with that. But neither do I believe, Deacon, if one does not form one’s conscience to fit the learned faith, that they are rejecting Christ. I truly hope you are not judging Esdra nor I as Judas.

God bless you in all you do, Deacon, in your work. Peace.

 

[Lapey]

Yes you misunderstand me, Lapey, if you think I do not believe in the NT story such as Christ’s death and resurrection and His Gospel of love, peace, His concern for the poor and sick. His ascension into heaven where He is seateth at the righthand of God the Father. Until He comes again.

But in line with the thread as to what to call, regardless of what the Church says about once brought into, Lapey, neither Esdra nor I can use the term Catholic with or without an adjective for identification in our profiles. For Esdra it is by his choice he does not and I respect his faith and his choice not to. But hmm. Can’t be washed off? Well I agree with you in the eyes of the Church it can not be washed off.

Lapey, if by forrming one’s conscience to fit the faith which I have learned, you mean turning my conscience entirely over to other humans, I have to tell you, Lapey, I’m just a little uncomfortable with that. But neither do I believe, Deacon, if one does not form one’s conscience to fit the learned faith, that they are rejecting Christ. I truly hope you are not judging Esdra nor I as Judas.

God bless you in all you do, Deacon, in your work. Peace.

It is not for me to judge, but to teach and inform…if a person rejects truth, or the existance of it, they reject His Church. By rejecting His Church, He is rejected.

Here is another CCC 2567:

2567 God calls man first. Man may forget his Creator or hide far from his face; he may run after idols or accuse the deity of having abandoned him; yet the living and true God tirelessly calls each person to that mysterious encounter known as prayer. In prayer, the faithful God’s initiative of love always comes first; our own first step is always a response. As God gradually reveals himself and reveals man to himself, prayer appears as a reciprocal call, a covenant drama. Through words and actions, this drama engages the heart. It unfolds throughout the whole history of salvation.

He is tirelessly waiting for us to get over our own opinions, and our own wants and desires. He is tirelessly waiting for us to die to one’s self and come to Him. Through His sacrements and His Church His grace flows, this is where He waits for us to get finish with hiding our faces.

I hid my face for 35 years, after being baptised at 6 days old and confirmed in the 8th grade. I came to know Jesus at 35, He has taken me on this jorney, and has instructed me to teach, that I am doing. Good day and God bless you and may He bring you the gift of knowledge and understanding!

 

[rinnie]

I might agree Guan if all faiths and all believers in good faith agreed on what constitutes sin. But that’s why we call it faith. Peace.

Matt what does faith have to do with what is sin and what is not sin? Are you saying that if we have faith in God we have the right to go against what God says is a sin?

So then if you are correct you can commit adultery because you have faith, and I can’t commit adultery because I have faith? Because your faith says its cool and my faith says its not cool.

So we have different truths then? But God said there is ONE truth. but I guess is you have faith, again, we can have different truths.

But yet GOd said thy shall not commit adultery. And GOd said there is only ONE truth.

So who is right God or the person with faith

Sometimes Matt you can sure come up with some off the wall thoughts

Because many people believe they can commit adultery if its okay with the other spouse because after all its not only sex its LOVE!!

And then there is Me and My Husband who believe we cannot commit adultery even if it is LOVE because God says its a sin.

Personally I like your way better, until we can all agree on what is and what is not sin, fair game!

 

[rinnie]

Yes you misunderstand me, Lapey, if you think I do not believe in the NT story such as Christ’s death and resurrection and His Gospel of love, peace, His concern for the poor and sick. His ascension into heaven where He is seateth at the righthand of God the Father. Until He comes again.

But in line with the thread as to what to call, regardless of what the Church says about once brought into, Lapey, neither Esdra nor I can use the term Catholic with or without an adjective for identification in our profiles. For Esdra it is by his choice he does not and I respect his faith and his choice not to. But hmm. Can’t be washed off? Well I agree with you in the eyes of the Church it can not be washed off.

Lapey, if by forrming one’s conscience to fit the faith which I have learned, you mean turning my conscience entirely over to other humans, I have to tell you, Lapey, I’m just a little uncomfortable with that. But neither do I believe, Deacon, if one does not form one’s conscience to fit the learned faith, that they are rejecting Christ. I truly hope you are not judging Esdra nor I as Judas.

God bless you in all you do, Deacon, in your work. Peace.

I don’t want to speak for the Deacon but what I got out of what he said is who has the truth the word of God or your Conscience.

What does believing in the N.T. that the Church is the Pilar of all faith and not your conscience have to do with turning your conscience over to others?

Christ said the Advocate the Holy Spirit is leading the RCC so if you call the HS others OKAY but then are we not supposed to rid of oneself and become Christ like??

 

[Carlan]

I enjoy reading the book of Proverbs now and then!

**How to acquire Wisdom. **
My son, do not forget my teaching,
Let your heart keep my principles,
For these will give you lengthier days,
Longer years of life, and greater happiness.

Let kindliness and loyalty never leave you:
Tie them round your neck,
Write them in your heart,
So shall you enjoy favour and good repute
In the sight of God and man.

 Trust wholeheartedly in Yahweh,

Put no faith in your own understanding;
In every course you take, have Him in mind:
He will see that your paths are smooth.
Do not think of yourself as wise,
Fear Yahweh and turn your back on evil:
Health giving this to your body,
Relief to your bones.

My son, do not scorn correction from Yahweh,
Do not resent his rebuke;
For Yahweh reproves the man he loves,
As a father checks a well-loved son.

Peace, Carlan

 

[Lapey]

I don’t want to speak for the Deacon but what I got out of what he said is who has the truth the word of God or your Conscience.

What does believing in the N.T. that the Church is the Pilar of all faith and not your conscience have to do with turning your conscience over to others?

Christ said the Advocate the Holy Spirit is leading the RCC so if you call the HS others OKAY but then are we not supposed to rid of oneself and become Christ like??

That pretty much covers it…

 

[Lapey]

I enjoy reading the book of Proverbs now and then!

**How to acquire Wisdom. **
My son, do not forget my teaching,
Let your heart keep my principles,
For these will give you lengthier days,
Longer years of life, and greater happiness.

Let kindliness and loyalty never leave you:
Tie them round your neck,
Write them in your heart,
So shall you enjoy favour and good repute
In the sight of God and man.

 Trust wholeheartedly in Yahweh,

Put no faith in your own understanding;
In every course you take, have Him in mind:
He will see that your paths are smooth.
Do not think of yourself as wise,
Fear Yahweh and turn your back on evil:
Health giving this to your body,
Relief to your bones.

My son, do not scorn correction from Yahweh,
Do not resent his rebuke;
For Yahweh reproves the man he loves,
As a father checks a well-loved son.

Peace, Carlan

Thanks for shareing this Carlan!

 

[CMatt25]

Matt what does faith have to do with what is sin and what is not sin? Are you saying that if we have faith in God we have the right to go against what God says is a sin?

So then if you are correct you can commit adultery because you have faith, and I can’t commit adultery because I have faith? Because your faith says its cool and my faith says its not cool.

So we have different truths then? But God said there is ONE truth. but I guess is you have faith, again, we can have different truths.

But yet GOd said thy shall not commit adultery. And GOd said there is only ONE truth.

So who is right God or the person with faith

Sometimes Matt you can sure come up with some off the wall thoughts

Because many people believe they can commit adultery if its okay with the other spouse because after all its not only sex its LOVE!!

And then there is Me and My Husband who believe we cannot commit adultery even if it is LOVE because God says its a sin.

Personally I like your way better, until we can all agree on what is and what is not sin, fair game!

Hi Rinnie, no what I believe is not that there shall be different truths in the end. But that there are people of good faith here on earth whose conscience might not agree within their faith understanding with all the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church says about the revelation of God or that the Advocate is leading the RCC as you put it in another post. Some of us have such faith while others of us have another faith. So I just acknowledge in our earthly presence a reality that what we walk by is faith…

Btw though I perhaps don’t have faith in everything on the wall my faith is not cool with adultery. So on that matter you and your husband and I share the same faith! God bless you Rinnie and Lapey and Carlan et al. Peace.

 

[seeker57]

I have a friend who was raised Catholic, but who now is a UU.

He seems to agree with Lapey, who said you can’t just wash it off. He calls himself a recovering Catholic and likens it to a recovering alcoholic, because he said some church teachings were toxic to his well being, just as being a chronic alcoholic would be toxic to a person’s health.

I have never gone in depth with him about what particular beliefs he found toxic, but, since the OP asked what those who no longer consider themselves Catholic should be called, i thought “recovering Catholic” was appropriate, at least according to someone who is in that position.

Peace

Seeker