No catholic anymore

[guanophore]

Matt what does faith have to do with what is sin and what is not sin? Are you saying that if we have faith in God we have the right to go against what God says is a sin?

Kind of, yes. He believes that the Church is just "a bunch of humans’ and therefore do not have anymore authority to determine what is sin than he does. He does not believe he is going against God to reject the teachings of the Church, since he is following his own conscience and his conscience tells him what he is doing is ok, even if the church says the opposite. He believes God left no way of knowing what is sin,“until he comes again” so that any one can, “by faith” define for himself his moral conduct.

So then if you are correct you can commit adultery because you have faith, and I can’t commit adultery because I have faith? Because your faith says its cool and my faith says its not cool.

Technically this is an accurate conclusion, as PR so well pointed out. This is the danger of moral relativism. Each man does what is right in his own eyes.

So we have different truths then? But God said there is ONE truth. but I guess is you have faith,  again,  we can have different truths.

Because we are fallen, and the Truth is not evident to all of us equally. Therefore, we must respect and tolerate these differences.

But yet GOd said thy shall not commit adultery. And GOd said there is only ONE truth.

But Rinnie! You only believe that because of your faith. Other people with other faith believe differently, and that is their faith.

So who is right God or the person with faith

Actually CM has posted that the law of the land is right, and that we can do whatever is allowed by civil authorities.

Sometimes Matt you can sure come up with some off the wall thoughts

If CM were to accept that the Church teaches the Truth, and he has a responsibility to conform his behavior accordingly, some drastic lifestyle changes would be needed. You don’t really want to cause that, do you?

Because many people believe they can commit adultery if its okay with the other spouse because after all its not only sex its LOVE!!

Open marriage. Are you so old fashioned?

And then there is Me and My Husband who believe we cannot commit adultery even if it is LOVE because God says its a sin.

You are free to believe that, because that is YOUR faith.

 

[CMatt25]

Kind of, yes. He believes that the Church is just "a bunch of humans’ and therefore do not have anymore authority to determine what is sin than he does. He does not believe he is going against God to reject the teachings of the Church, since he is following his own conscience and his conscience tells him what he is doing is ok, even if the church says the opposite. He believes God left no way of knowing what is sin,“until he comes again” so that any one can, “by faith” define for himself his moral conduct.

Technically this is an accurate conclusion, as PR so well pointed out. This is the danger of moral relativism. Each man does what is right in his own eyes.

Because we are fallen, and the Truth is not evident to all of us equally. Therefore, we must respect and tolerate these differences.

But Rinnie! You only believe that because of your faith. Other people with other faith believe differently, and that is their faith.

Actually CM has posted that the law of the land is right, and that we can do whatever is allowed by civil authorities.

If CM were to accept that the Church teaches the Truth, and he has a responsibility to conform his behavior accordingly, some drastic lifestyle changes would be needed. You don’t really want to cause that, do you?

Open marriage. Are you so old fashioned?

You are free to believe that, because that is YOUR faith.

Hello Guan, your “kind of” made me laugh. But in truth I’ve yet to meet a man physically walking the earth today who is not at least kind of a human.

Guan, every man has free will in faith to make moral decisions. The Church Herself says so. See CCC 1782. Then I believe we each shall have the opportunity to stand before God and answer. And it is only He who shall know our hearts. Not any human.

Guan, the law of the land is indeed what we live by in a democracy of plural beliefs. But I separate what I believe is right before God with civil authorities. I just do not reside in a theocracy but in a democracy and I find myself able to separate the two.

I hope this kind of helps Rinnie kinda coming from my own mouth and not too much off the wall for her. Peace and love to all of you.

 

[PRmerger]

But Rinnie! You only believe that because of your faith. Other people with other faith believe differently, and that is their faith.

This made me SOL.

<(snicker out loud)>

It is a good synopsis of how inadequate this paradigm is. One can permit much social injustice in the name of this paradigm. For one’s faith can tell him adultery is what God wants him to do to make him happy, and an adherent of this paradigm must say, 'Yep, that’s what your faith tells you." Too bad for his wife, though. Hopefully this man has friends who are steeped in truth and can lovingly address this man’s sin.

 

[CMatt25]

Hopefully this man has friends who are steeped in truth and can lovingly address this man’s sin.

Or at least has friends whose faith perhaps can help to lovingly address the man. But still in the end the man might or might not share the same belief that he is sinning. But at least his friends can try.

 

[PRmerger]

Or at least has friends whose faith perhaps can help to lovingly address the man. But still in the end the man might or might not share the same belief that he is sinning. But at least his friends can try.

If you tried to talk to this man he’s going to tell you, rightly, “Dude! Who in the heck are you to tell me what I’m doing is wrong? You told me to follow my heart and that’s what I’m doing. I have faith that this is what God wants me to do. This is the direct result of you, man. So thanks for giving me permission!”

 

[CMatt25]

If you tried to talk to this man he’s going to tell you, rightly, “Dude! Who in the heck are you to tell me what I’m doing is wrong? You told me to follow my heart and that’s what I’m doing. I have faith that this is what God wants me to do. This is the direct result of you, man. So thanks for giving me permission!”

PR, no difference than if you talk to him and he says:

"Maam! (PR in my scenario this hypothetical man of yours calls you “maam” either because he is younger or simply respectful and polite. You therefore are taking no offense to the term I am nearly 100% certain)

Anyway he could then go on to say, “PR, you know we’ve been friends a long time. And you know I do not share your beliefs on everything. But anyway doesn’t the Christian faith’s Scriptures say something about not judging and instead concerning yourself with your own eye beam?” I know I read that, I believe it’s in Matt 7 in the NAB version you gave me last Christmas. So thanks and I appreciate your concern. But I’m a big boy now. I refer you to CCC 1782 for more about it."

See PR. Either of us can give it a try and hope for the best. But no difference in what could be the possible outcome regardless of which one of us speaks to the man.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, no difference than if you talk to him and he says:

"Maam! (PR in my scenario this hypothetical man of yours calls you “maam” either because he is younger or simply respectful and polite. You therefore are taking no offense to the term I am nearly 100% certain)

'Tis true, this.

BTW, I am not one of those women who gets easily offended. If I ask my honey if I look fat in an outfit I’ll be quite receptive to whatever he says.

*One thing that offends me: hearing people say, “You play like a girl!” as if being a girl is an insult. Oh, and I once heard an otherwise good daddy tell his son that he was “acting like a girl”. Why should that be perceived as a catalyst for making his son change his behavior?

Anyway he could then go on to say, “PR, you know we’ve been friends a long time. And you know I do not share your beliefs on everything. But anyway doesn’t the Christian faith’s Scriptures say something about not judging and instead concerning yourself with your own eye beam?” I know I read that, I believe it’s in Matt 7 in the NAB version you gave me last Christmas. So thanks and I appreciate your concern. But I’m a big boy now. I refer you to CCC 1782 for more about it."

See PR. Either of us can give it a try and hope for the best. But no difference in what could be the possible outcome regardless of which one of us speaks to the man.

I find it curious that you would post the above scenario–for is it not exactly your paradigm? It’s exactly what we’ve been saying to you, Matt. You cannot right any wrong because of your paradigm…and that, sadly, lets injustice and evil prevail.

And, oh, the poor wife, your friend, too. She has to hear you say, “Sorry, Leslie, I have my own beam.” But then she remembers! “Oh, thank goodness I have PR to talk to my husband. She’s Catholic.”

Thankfully, he would have me to say, “Carlos, you misunderstand the Catechism and our Lord. I have never told you to just follow whatever you feel is right. I have told you to conform your conscience to Christ’s and then you can follow your heart.”

 

[CMatt25]

I find it curious that you would post the above scenario–for is it not exactly your paradigm? It’s exactly what we’ve been saying to you, Matt. You cannot right any wrong because of your paradigm…and that, sadly, lets injustice and evil prevail.

And, oh, the poor wife, your friend, too. She has to hear you say, “Sorry, Leslie, I have my own beam.” But then she remembers! “Oh, thank goodness I have PR to talk to my husband. She’s Catholic.”

Thankfully, he would have me to say, “Carlos, you misunderstand the Catechism and our Lord. I have never told you to just follow whatever you feel is right. I have told you to conform your conscience to Christ’s and then you can follow your heart.”

PR, I don’t know why it makes you so curious. Just because you hold faithfully to the Catholic faith and are a faithful, practicing Catholic, doesn’t necessarily mean Carlos does/is nor that he will be after Leslie has you talk with him. This is what I’ve been trying to tell you. You have faith beliefs but your friend Carlos might have other beliefs. So after you have your talk with him, just because you present the Catholic faith to him, does not mean he is going to embrace it as his faith. In that case the injustice we both believe Carlos is involved in, might still prevail in his life at least for the time being. Only God shall know Carlos’s heart later.

In the meantime Leslie would have the option of divorce if we go by what Jesus said in Douay Rheims Matt 19:9 about divorcing for fornication. Although I see in the NAB it has been changed to no divorce unless the marriage is unlawful. Which I suppose is to support the Catholic belief of annulment. I don’t know if Leslie is Catholic or not or if they were married in the Catholic Church. But I suppose she could seek an annulment if that were to turn out to be her last resort.

What you and I could do after all of this talking to Carlos and consoling Leslie would be to pray for them.

Peace to you PR.

 

[guanophore]

But anyway doesn't the Christian faith's Scriptures say something about not judging and instead concerning yourself with your own eye beam?"  I know I read that, I believe it's in Matt 7 in the NAB version you gave me last Christmas.  So thanks and I appreciate your concern.  But I'm a big boy now.  I  refer you to CCC 1782 for more about it."

That scripture is being misused in this context. The judgment is not of the person, but the behavior. When someone next to us is committing a sin, we are to discern that behavior according to God’s standards.

John 7:24
4 Do not judge by appearances, but **judge with right judgment." **

It is incumbent upon us as Christians to be able to determine the difference between sinful behavior, and behavior that conforms itself to Christ.

1 Cor 5:12-13
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? **Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? **13 God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

Now, granted, the neighbor may not call himself a “brother”, and that makes your responsiblity different.

Ezek 3:18-19
8 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.

How can one person warn another about iniquity if they can’t tell the difference between iniquity and righteousness? Such a discernment is called making a judgment.

That does not mean we condemn the person to hell. It just means we don’t pretend there is nothing wrong when there is.

 

[CMatt25]

That scripture is being misused in this context. The judgment is not of the person, but the behavior.

That does not mean we condemn the person to hell. It just means we don’t pretend there is nothing wrong when there is.

Guan, of course you can not condemn PR’s imaginary friend, Carlos, to hell since you can not possibly know his heart at the moment he takes his last breath.

Yet CCC 846 appears to judge that a person who once believed fully in the Catholic faith but who has had some change of behavior due to a change in beliefs, can not (a tense of could not) be saved and is judged and condemned to hell.

CCC 846 “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

This judging of people Guan, telling them they can not be saved if they don’t “remain” in the Catholic Church due to a change in beliefs, troubles me. When another (call him person B) who has had the same beliefs without ever “knowing” the Catholic Church was necessary, that person can be saved. It makes no sense to me that person B can be saved but person A at some point having had a change of beliefs simliar to those of person B, can not.

God knows and understands the heart, Guan. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

Yet CCC 846 appears to judge that a person who once believed fully in the Catholic faith but who has had some change of behavior due to a change in beliefs, can not (a tense of could not) be saved and is judged and condemned to hell.

CCC 846 “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

This judging of people Guan, telling them they can not be saved if they don’t “remain” in the Catholic Church due to a change in beliefs, troubles me. When another (call him person B) who has had the same beliefs without ever “knowing” the Catholic Church was necessary, that person can be saved. It makes no sense to me that person B can be saved but person A at some point having had a change of beliefs simliar to those of person B, can not.

I think the difference is one of ignorance. If a person does not know any better, then they are not as liable as one who knows more. To those whom much is given, much is required. A person who is well catechized, who then turns away from the Catholic faith has done so “mortally”, that being, with full knowledge and consent of the will engaged in this serious matter.

This is why it is so dangerous for one to turn their back on the Catholicity in which they are baptized. To use a Pauline parallel, a Catholic is one who is such inwardly (not just by virture of their baptismal certificate).

How does one have a “change of beliefs”. To me, that sounds like a falling away from, or rejection of the faith into which they were baptized.

God knows and understands the heart, Guan. Peace.

Indeed He does, so if any of us think that He will not notice if we try to sneak in without a wedding garment, we can think again!

Matt 22:11-14

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[CMatt25]

A person who is well catechized, who then turns away from the Catholic faith has done so “mortally”, that being, with full knowledge and consent of the will engaged in this serious matter.

How does one have a “change of beliefs”. To me, that sounds like a falling away from, or rejection of the faith into which they were baptized.

When someone disagrees with the Catholc Church on something it always seems to come back to someone not being catechized properly. Instead of them having reached a different faith belief than what they were catechized about on something. But Guan I am at least glad to see you acknowledge it is faith :clapping: we speak of, when you speak in terms of it being a “rejection of faith”. God bless you Guan in yours and always along your faith journey with Him. Peace be with you.

 

[guanophore]

When someone disagrees with the Catholc Church on something it always seems to come back to someone not being catechized properly.

I probably did not express myself well. I always start with poor catechesis for several reasons. One is that it has been my personal experience to walk away because I did not understand.

I am also aware that there have been 40 years of very poor catechesis after Vat II. For that reason, it is likely that people were not well educated in their faith.

This is not the persons that are being addressed by the portion of the catechism you cited, though. The ones being addressed there are those that KNOW that the CC is right, yet still choose to walk away.

of them having reached a different faith belief than what they were catechized about on something.

That is because a well formed conscience is always in unity with the teachings of the church.

Jesus taught the Truth. He committed His Truth to the Apostles, and they to the Church. In the Church, the Truths of Christ are infallibly preserved by the Holy Spirit. A person who has the “mind of Christ” will have unity with His One Body, the Church.

If a person develops a “different faith belief” that means they are separated from Christ, and from His church, to the extent that they have embraced that which is contrary to His Teaching.

But Guan I am at least glad to see you acknowledge it is faith :clapping: we speak of, when you speak in terms of it being a “rejection of faith”. God bless you Guan in yours and always along your faith journey with Him. Peace be with you.

We mean different things by that, though, CM. The Apostles’ taught that "the faith "is an objective reality, not a subjective one. When one rejects the Catholic faith, one is rejecting the Teachings of the Apostles, and in so doing, has lost Catholicity.