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Deacon_Tony560
Guest
No. The Newman Center that I ment was Fresno State.
Deacon Tony
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Deacon Tony
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Mysty101
Guest
I still think that unity of posture and submission to the pastor’s judgement as to the “common spiritual good of the community” take priority to my own assessment of the situation.
I agree with TNT–If you don’t trust your Pastor, find another Parish. His Bishop trusts him, and the Pope trusts his Bishop.
I agree with TNT–If you don’t trust your Pastor, find another Parish. His Bishop trusts him, and the Pope trusts his Bishop.
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retiredtxn
Guest
Sorry, folks…didn’t mean to stir up a hornets nest and I apologize to whoever was offended because I called the Mass a “service”. Let’s not be “nit-picky”. 
To answer a question about other people kneeling…no. No one was kneeling. I just felt very uncomfortable not “adoring” my Blessed Savior. It caught me off guard and I was wondering why this was not done at this parish. I’m afraid I didn’t give myself entirely to the Mass.
I won’t be visiting there again so I don’t think I need to worry about setting an example by kneeling with a pillow or on the floor.
To answer a question about other people kneeling…no. No one was kneeling. I just felt very uncomfortable not “adoring” my Blessed Savior. It caught me off guard and I was wondering why this was not done at this parish. I’m afraid I didn’t give myself entirely to the Mass.
I won’t be visiting there again so I don’t think I need to worry about setting an example by kneeling with a pillow or on the floor.
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MaggieOH
Guest
We do have cushions for people who have to kneel on the marble floor which is the first pews only. Most people have adjusted to the lack of kneelers in my parish. There is no justificaiton to remain standing.Sorry, folks…didn’t mean to stir up a hornets nest and I apologize to whoever was offended because I called the Mass a “service”. Let’s not be “nit-picky”.
To answer a question about other people kneeling…no. No one was kneeling. I just felt very uncomfortable not “adoring” my Blessed Savior. It caught me off guard and I was wondering why this was not done at this parish. I’m afraid I didn’t give myself entirely to the Mass.
I won’t be visiting there again so I don’t think I need to worry about setting an example by kneeling with a pillow or on the floor.
MaggieOH
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Nota_Bene
Guest
Wrong. Wrong. Don’t be so arrogant.
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Mysty101
Guest
Nota Bene:
But, I repeat, there is no way you can do something different than everyone else without drawing attention to yourself, whether or not that is your intention.
“Baloney & Wrong” are far more arrogant and hostile than anything I said.
I never said you were wrong, I merely said I do not agree.
But, I repeat, there is no way you can do something different than everyone else without drawing attention to yourself, whether or not that is your intention.
“Baloney & Wrong” are far more arrogant and hostile than anything I said.
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Kelly
Guest
Why are you so concerned with “doing something different than everybody else”. In previous posts you were very concerned that people were not following the GIRM down to the letter when it came to kneeling to receive the Eucharist. Well it clearly states in the GIRM, as you well know, that we should kneel during the consecration.
How far would you be willing to go to follow the crowd? Maybe someone should have pointed out to our Blessed Mother and St. John that they were not in line with the rest of the apostles at Calvary, shouldn’t they have chosen the route of not drawing attention to themselves, and hidden away with the other apostles and disciples? After all this seemed to be “for the greater good of the community”!
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Mysty101
Guest
Kelly,
I am merely quoting from the GIRM. We are called to act as one, and to follow the instructions of our Shepherds.
Of course you can choose to do your own thing, and in the case of kneeling for Communion, we are told you cannot be called disobedient, but this is not the case with other instructions.
None of these abuses are serious, and I doubt the disobedience would be sinful, but it is the better choice to do as you are told.
(as I said, if it were something serious, I would look for another Parish)
I am merely quoting from the GIRM. We are called to act as one, and to follow the instructions of our Shepherds.
Of course you can choose to do your own thing, and in the case of kneeling for Communion, we are told you cannot be called disobedient, but this is not the case with other instructions.
None of these abuses are serious, and I doubt the disobedience would be sinful, but it is the better choice to do as you are told.
Plus I do think my pastor is entitled to my respect and obedience, and I would give it, even if I were not instructed to do so.
(as I said, if it were something serious, I would look for another Parish)
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Kelly
Guest
Mysty,
Please take the time to read this reponse given by Colin Donovon, STL from EWTN. You will notice that his sources include the GIRM and the Code of Canon Law.
Kneeling at the Consecration
Whether one kneels or stands for the Eucharistic Prayer is a matter of ecclesiastical tradition. Human customs of paying respect, or in this case worship, determined the development of the practices of the Eastern and Western Churches in this, as in other matters.
In the Orthodox Churches and the Eastern Catholic Churches standing is the norm during the Eucharistic Prayer. At the Consecration is added the customary sign of adoration in these Churches, a profound bow. In the Latin Church, however, kneeling is the sign of adoration for Christ who has just become present on the altar. This came about through the dogmatic development of Eucharistic theology in the West. To go back to the earlier practice in the West would be a sign of devolution of doctrine, and in fact, that is the way the devout faithful perceive efforts to change Latin practice, as a counter-sign of faith. For Eastern Catholics this is not a problem, since they have never inculturated the Latin way of expressing adoration.
Finally, the Magisterium desires each Church to preserve what is peculiar to it, thus manifesting in the unity of the universal Church a legitimate diversity of Rites. Therefore, on many grounds efforts to require Latin Catholics to stand at the Consecration are wrong-headed, as well as disobedient.
Continued below:
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Kelly
Guest
The Latin Norm. In the Latin Rite adoration of Christ in the Eucharist calls for either kneeling or genuflection. In the Liturgy the people are obliged to kneel for the Consecration and the main celebrant to genuflect (both after Consecrating each element and before receiving Holy Communion). Concelebrants are to bow profoundly. Deacons and the laity are to be kneeling.
The law on the posture of the people is as follows:
43 … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.
Continued:
The law on the posture of the people is as follows:
- Universal Law. The General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43 establishes as the universal norm of the Roman Rite the practice of kneeling for the Consecration. This is understood to mean from the Epiclesis (the prayer calling for the sending down of the Holy Spirit) to the Mysterium Fidei (The Mystery of Faith).
- American Particular Law. The U.S. Bishops adapted the universal norm with Roman approval, retaining the practice of kneeling from after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) to the Doxology (Through Him, with Him, in Him), in other words for the entire Eucharistic Prayer. Thus, while in Italy and many other places they stand until the Consecration, at which time they kneel down for the Consecration, in the US we have knelt for the Canon in the past and continue to do so.
43 … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.
Continued:
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Kelly
Guest
Local norms. Since the law governing adapting the norms to a particular church (diocese) or nation are spelled out in the General Instruction, and require obtaining Roman approval before implementation, the existence of an adaptation departing from the norm for the US, such as standing for the Consecration, is easily verified: a Roman document granting approval.
Circumstances. The law itself foresees the possibility that the celebrant could grant an exception, or the person excuse himself from kneeling, “on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason” (GIRM 43). The keys are good reasons and occasions. If Mass must be held in a gym or outdoors, or it’s a crowded Midnight Mass, or you are sick and don’t feel you can kneel, or similar just causes, then there is a good reason for not kneeling. Occasions means particular circumstances that apply once, or periodically, or even for a period of time, such as during a church’s construction, as opposed to being the norm.
No kneelers. The liturgical law says we are to kneel, it does not require kneelers. There can only be one of two reasons a Catholic church would be built without kneelers or would remove them. Either the pastor is faithful and wants his people to do some penance by kneeling on the floor, in which case they should oblige him, or, he intends to disobey the liturgical law of the Roman Rite, in which case they should obey the Church. Naturally, if it is too hard for them to kneel then they are excused by n.43.
Unity argument. The General Instruction (nn.42-43) does call for a unified posture of the people. These are important norms, since the outward sign of being the Mystical Body is in part manifested by the one posture of all, just as the sign of Christ the Head, and sign of His members, is manifested by the different postures and actions of the ordained versus the people. BUT, unity is also manifested, and more importantly, by the unity of rite with the Bishop and with the Pope. The life of every parish is dependant upon communion with the successor of the Apostles who is Bishop in that place. And, the life of the particular Church (the canonical term for a diocese) is the communion of its Bishop with the Successor of Peter, the Pope. Of what value is a common posture that acts as a sign of disunity with the particular and universal Church? None! It is a liturgical sign of Congregationalism, not Catholicism.
Roman churches don’t have kneelers. This is simply not true. I’ve lived in Rome and been to Mass in many different churches. Parishes churches have kneelers, just as ours do. The reason the basilicas, like St. Peter’s, don’t have kneelers is the size of the nave. The floor is left open most of the time and chairs are set up by the thousands in various configurations, according to need, when there is a large celebration. In the reservation chapel, where adoration is held daily, there are pews with kneelers. In the left arm of the Basilica, the Chapel of St. Joseph, where the scheduled daily Masses are celebrated each morning until noon, there are pews and kneelers. At the many side altars where visiting priests celebrate Mass, with or without a congregation, there are communion rails, where people kneel. Others kneel on the floor. Kneeling is alive and well in Rome, even if not in your parish!
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Second Vatican Council:
Can. 837
Circumstances. The law itself foresees the possibility that the celebrant could grant an exception, or the person excuse himself from kneeling, “on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason” (GIRM 43). The keys are good reasons and occasions. If Mass must be held in a gym or outdoors, or it’s a crowded Midnight Mass, or you are sick and don’t feel you can kneel, or similar just causes, then there is a good reason for not kneeling. Occasions means particular circumstances that apply once, or periodically, or even for a period of time, such as during a church’s construction, as opposed to being the norm.
No kneelers. The liturgical law says we are to kneel, it does not require kneelers. There can only be one of two reasons a Catholic church would be built without kneelers or would remove them. Either the pastor is faithful and wants his people to do some penance by kneeling on the floor, in which case they should oblige him, or, he intends to disobey the liturgical law of the Roman Rite, in which case they should obey the Church. Naturally, if it is too hard for them to kneel then they are excused by n.43.
Unity argument. The General Instruction (nn.42-43) does call for a unified posture of the people. These are important norms, since the outward sign of being the Mystical Body is in part manifested by the one posture of all, just as the sign of Christ the Head, and sign of His members, is manifested by the different postures and actions of the ordained versus the people. BUT, unity is also manifested, and more importantly, by the unity of rite with the Bishop and with the Pope. The life of every parish is dependant upon communion with the successor of the Apostles who is Bishop in that place. And, the life of the particular Church (the canonical term for a diocese) is the communion of its Bishop with the Successor of Peter, the Pope. Of what value is a common posture that acts as a sign of disunity with the particular and universal Church? None! It is a liturgical sign of Congregationalism, not Catholicism.
Roman churches don’t have kneelers. This is simply not true. I’ve lived in Rome and been to Mass in many different churches. Parishes churches have kneelers, just as ours do. The reason the basilicas, like St. Peter’s, don’t have kneelers is the size of the nave. The floor is left open most of the time and chairs are set up by the thousands in various configurations, according to need, when there is a large celebration. In the reservation chapel, where adoration is held daily, there are pews with kneelers. In the left arm of the Basilica, the Chapel of St. Joseph, where the scheduled daily Masses are celebrated each morning until noon, there are pews and kneelers. At the many side altars where visiting priests celebrate Mass, with or without a congregation, there are communion rails, where people kneel. Others kneel on the floor. Kneeling is alive and well in Rome, even if not in your parish!
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Second Vatican Council:
- Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
- In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
- Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
Can. 837
- Liturgical actions are not private actions but celebrations of the Church itself, which is “the sacrament of unity,” namely, a holy people assembled and
ordered under the bishops; therefore liturgical actions pertain to the whole body of the Church and manifest and affect it, but they affect the individual members of the Church in different ways according to the diversity of orders, functions and actual participation. - Liturgical actions, to the extent that by their proper nature they involve a common celebration, are to be celebrated where possible with the presence and active participation of the Christian faithful.
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Kelly
Guest
Sorry, this is the last page. I wanted to get it in its entirety and not edit it in any way. I didn’t realize that it would be this long!
Can. 838
Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
Can. 838
- The supervision of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See and, in accord with the law, the diocesan bishop.
- It is for the Apostolic See to order the sacred liturgy of the entire Church (universa ecclesia), to publish the liturgical books, to review their translations into the vernacular languages and to see that liturgical ordinances
are faithfully observed everywhere. - It pertains to the conferences of bishops to prepare translations of the liturgical books into the vernacular languages, with the appropriate adaptations within the limits defined in the liturgical books themselves, and to publish them with the prior review by the Holy See.
- It pertains to the diocesan bishop in the church entrusted to him, within the limits of his competence, to issue liturgical norms by which all are bound.
Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
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selvaraj
Guest
In my parish(in India) all the kneelers, which really makes me happy.
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Nota_Bene
Guest
You are flat-out wrong.
I personally have to attend a parish now and then with no kneelers. I sit in the last row on an end. I quietly slide around and kneel behind the pew when it is time to kneel.
No one has a clue that I am doing this – except perhaps the people in the sanctuary, or those that are kneeling beside me.
I am sure there are several more ways to kneel without being noticed…
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Mysty101
Guest
Nota Bene:
What about the people in your row? And could 20 or 30 people do this (as you are suggesting we are commanded) without being noticed?
Rules must be made for the majority, and the rest should do their best to comply. This is not private prayer. It is Public worship.
When our kneelers were being refurbished, the frames were left in place and some people were kneeling on them, even though the Pastor had told them, this would cause damage. They were told to stand, since sitting is not a legitimate liturgical posture, but they had to be “reverent” and break the kneelers.
And you’re flat out hostile
What about the people in your row? And could 20 or 30 people do this (as you are suggesting we are commanded) without being noticed?
Rules must be made for the majority, and the rest should do their best to comply. This is not private prayer. It is Public worship.
As I said, I am not going to try to determine if the Pastor has the Bishops approval when he decided this was in the best interest of the congregation. Also I do not think it is a serious abuse to kneel in a standing congregation, and I would feel the same way about someone standing in a kneeling congregation.
When our kneelers were being refurbished, the frames were left in place and some people were kneeling on them, even though the Pastor had told them, this would cause damage. They were told to stand, since sitting is not a legitimate liturgical posture, but they had to be “reverent” and break the kneelers.
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Mysty101
Guest
Kelly,
Yes that is the conservative interpretation, but I will still go with the Pastor of the Parish where I attend Mass, and his determination if an exception applies (space, health, etc)
By the way, my parish does have kneelers, and we do kneel. I doubt I would belong to a parish which doesn’t have kneelers, not because I think this is a serious abuse, but because I doubt this would be the only abuse.
Yes that is the conservative interpretation, but I will still go with the Pastor of the Parish where I attend Mass, and his determination if an exception applies (space, health, etc)
By the way, my parish does have kneelers, and we do kneel. I doubt I would belong to a parish which doesn’t have kneelers, not because I think this is a serious abuse, but because I doubt this would be the only abuse.
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Mysty101
Guest
And most of us are sorry if we got too passionate in our responses. Sometimes we do get carried away (or maybe we should beSorry, folks…didn’t mean to stir up a hornets nest and I apologize to whoever was offended because I called the Mass a “service”. Let’s not be “nit-picky”.
.
Lately, I am really trying to just be a part of the community as best I can and join my worship to the congregation without worring about what I prefer. If something doesn’t seem right to me, I try to ask the Priest about it.
Yes, this would be my choice, if possible.
PS And don’t be sorry—most of us love a hornet’s nest—there would be no discussion, if we all agreed
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
two threads and a poll on kneeling that are active at the same time
it is odd how similar topics come up in groups
it is odd how similar topics come up in groups
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Mysty101
Guest
…and you just missed the other 3 
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