No Communion line offered

[richiejm3]

So kneeling is ok but not the norm in the U.S. and the alter rail so far also seems to be ok although if it’s not something you see normally. It can throw you off just a little. So where is the unity in all this. If I decide to instruct my children here they will be confused when we attend Mass at the majority of other parishes wouldn’t they? Or would it be worth it to expose them to the orthodoxy of everything else done at this parish. I do move often and will have to pick up and leave in the future, so I will be looking for another parish and most likely it wont be a parish with alter rail only Communion.

 

[Lucania]

Actualy this is a real issue for me. I wouldn’t have come here with this if it wasn’t. I do nit pick things when I know I shouldn’t but this is something that until I get an answer it will distract me constantly.

I will talk to the pastor that would would be the best thing to do. Thanks.

I can’t help but think that there are many out there( these Forums included), who would love to have this dilemma! To have Altar Rails and actually use them! We have them at my Church but only use them for the 8:00 Tridentine Mass every Sunday. We are the only Church in our Diocese that offers the Tridentine. My understanding is that you may kneel while taking Communion, with or without Altar Rails.

 

[jmcrae]

So kneeling is ok but not the norm in the U.S. and the alter rail so far also seems to be ok although if it’s not something you see normally. It can throw you off just a little. So where is the unity in all this. If I decide to instruct my children here they will be confused when we attend Mass at the majority of other parishes wouldn’t they? Or would it be worth it to expose them to the orthodoxy of everything else done at this parish. I do move often and will have to pick up and leave in the future, so I will be looking for another parish and most likely it wont be a parish with alter rail only Communion.

It will be good for your kids to be exposed to the variety of practices that are licitly available in the Catholic Church.

It will prepare them for when someone approaches them to offer them a “better alternative” in some Protestant organization, because they will be able to say, “Oh, that reminds me so much of St. Xyzabc parish that we went to when Dad was working with Mr. Soandso - yes, the Catholic Church has that, too.”

Variety doesn’t contradict unity at all - in fact, it promotes it, by making a place for everyone to be able to belong.

 

[richiejm3]

Thanks everyone for your response. It all does give me a better view of this issue and along with talking to the pastor I hope to be put at ease. Thanks again.

 

[chicago]

The only judgement that CAN be made is kneeling for Communion is perfectly licit.

I don’t think that is the question in play here, though. Rather, it is one of whether a pastor can decide that ONLY kneeling will be allowed at his parish when the local norm not only permits but regulates standing. What we have at issue, then, is the OPPOSITE of the usual question concerning a person who desires to kneel when the pastor wants them to stand.

 

[chicago]

As concerns unity, I think that this is why the U.S Bishops creates the norm. There had begun to be a certain “do it yourself” mentality sprouting up where communicants decided that they would stand here, kneel over there, genuflect in line… it was creating confusing and some disruption. The bishops desired to streamline things effectively while adding a greater depth of devotion at the same time. So they figured that asking everyone to receive standing but bow to the Sacrament before recieving was a good and healthy middleground.

Naturally, there were still some who wanted to kneel out of their preferred sense of devotion. And the Vatican said that this is fine and shouldn’t be prohibited.

So I agree in that each practice has it’s own special sense of worth and should be appreciated. I know of at least one parish locally which has a communion line AND a communion rail. People come up in line, if they want to receive standing they just stay in line; if kneeling, they walk over to the rail and kneel down when they get close enough. Fair enough; enable people to do what they feel best drawn to. But I also think that it would be worthwhile if an accomodation were found that would simply suit a couple of clear needs rather than everyone deciding that they’ll simply focus on their own personal practices of piety. The latter could, indeed, be confusing and disruptive. Alas, this is the Catholic Church where you have as many different ways of people deciding to do things as there are people in the world!

 

[VociMike]

As concerns unity, I think that this is why the U.S Bishops creates the norm. There had begun to be a certain “do it yourself” mentality sprouting up where communicants decided that they would stand here, kneel over there, genuflect in line… it was creating confusing and some disruption. The bishops desired to streamline things effectively while adding a greater depth of devotion at the same time. So they figured that asking everyone to receive standing but bow to the Sacrament before recieving was a good and healthy middleground.

But there was unity of kneeling for a thousand years before that. So why suddenly the need for unity of standing?

 

[chicago]

But there was unity of kneeling for a thousand years before that. So why suddenly the need for unity of standing?

I mean in the latest go round. Most people already received standing these days. The confusion was coming in because people who wanted to kneel or genuflect or something were tossing others off. Simultaneously, it was recognized that perhaps there wasn’t signifigant enough respect being shown in outward gestures towards the Eucharist. So establishing what most do anyway (standing) with the additional request for a bow was an attempt to move things forward and provide for some standarization.

 

[CRW]

Kneeling for Communion is the Universal Norm of the Church. In the US, the Vatican approved a Particular Norm of Standing.

BUT… A Particular Norm only supercedes a Universal Norm when it is specifically approved to do so.

The Vatican has said that it has not granted permission for the Universal Norm to be superceded.

So kneeling for Communion is permitted under the GIRM and cannot be forbidden by a priest or bishop.

As far as being an ‘act of defiance’, that would speak to the specific intent of the person(s) involved. I cannot read their hearts, so I cannot make a judgement here.

The only judgement that CAN be made is kneeling for Communion is perfectly licit.

The Holy See approved the USCCB version of the Instruction of the General Missal, thereby making it the norm in the US. Chapter 1V of the US GIRM, paragraph 160: Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with **proper catechesis on the reasons for the norm. ** In other words, if you receive kneeling, you are in fact, being unfaithful and unlawful to the norms established by the USCCB and approved by the Holy See. In this case, the priests is instructed to speak to the person(S) in violation. This could be considered a sin, a serious sin, intentional disobedience toward the charity (love) of the Church teachings and faithful. Yes, the priest or EMHC has to allow the person to receive but with knowledge that the person is not within the norms established by the authority of the church.

 

[netmilsmom]

. If I decide to instruct my children here they will be confused when we attend Mass at the majority of other parishes wouldn’t they? Or would it be worth it to expose them to the orthodoxy of everything else done at this parish. I do move often and will have to pick up and leave in the future, so I will be looking for another parish and most likely it wont be a parish with alter rail only Communion.

Oh my! You have no clue of the blessing you are passing up for your children! Please, please, reconsider.
Not many can be taught to kneel for the Eucharist! Some out there would give an arm to receive this way.

At my parish, we receive kneeling and by intinction. I did have to instruct my daughter how to receive in the hand. She did fine in the parishes where people stand.

It really is no problem for the child who kneels to go to another parish. I just tell my daughter that this is how they do it there.

 

[netmilsmom]

In other words, if you receive kneeling, you are in fact, being unfaithful and unlawful to the norms established by the USCCB and approved by the Holy See.

No, you are not allowed to call anyone disobedient.

Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina
Sacramentorum
Prot. n. xxxx/02/L
xx July 2002

Your Excellency,

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has recently received reports of members of the faithful in your Diocese being refused Holy Communion unless while standing to receive, as opposed to kneeling. The reports state that such a policy has been announced to parishioners. There were possible indications that such a phenomenon might be somewhat more widespread in the Diocese, but the Congregation is unable to verify whether such is the case. This Dicastery is confident that Your Excellency will be in a position to make a more reliable determination of the matter, and these complaints in any event provide an occasion for the Congregation to communicate the manner in which it habitually addresses this matter, with a request that you make this position known to any priests who may be in need of being thus informed.

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213).
In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (Canon 843 s. 1), **there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. ** Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and—if the complaint is verified—that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary

CON"T

 

[netmilsmom]

---

Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum
Prot. n. xxxx/02/L
xx July 2002

Dear Xxxx,

This Congregation for Divine Worship gratefully acknowledges receipt of your letter, regarding an announced policy of denial of Holy Communion to those who kneel to receive it at a certain church.

It is troubling that you seem to express some reservations about both the propriety and the usefulness of addressing the Holy See regarding this matter. Canon 212 s.2 of the Code of Canon Law states that “Christ’s faithful are totally free to make known their needs, especially their spiritual ones, and their desire: to the Pastor of the Church.” The canon then continues in s.3: “According to their own knowledge competence and position, they have the right, and indeed sometimes the duty, to present to the sacred Pastor; their opinions regarding those things that pertain to the good of the Church.” Accordingly, in consideration of the nature of the problem and the relative likelihood that it might or might not be resolved on the local level, every member of the faithful has the right of recourse to the Roman Pontiff either personally or by means of the Dicasteries or Tribunals of the Roman Curia.

Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is “the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments.” In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (Canon 843 s.1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

Please be assured that the Congregation takes this matter very seriously, and is making the necessary contacts in its regard. At the same time, this Dicastery continues to be ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again in the future.

Thanking you for your interest, and with every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary

---

Congregatio de Culto Divino et Disciplina
Sacramentorum
Prot. N. xxxx/02/L
Rome, xx February, 2003

Dear _______:

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received your letter dated xx December 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congregation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, **this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. ** Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”
This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

With every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary

(if this is too much for the mods, please edit accordingly)

 

[palmas85]

At the Cathedral in San Diego, you see all types, most stand, some kneel. No one has been refused Holy Communion by either the Bishop or any other Priest there. The Cathedral has no communion rail…

While visiting New Orleans recently, I attended several Masses at St Patricks, which is a truly beautiful orthodox church in every respect… Weekly Masses are Pauline Rite, Sunday Masses are Traditional, Pauline and Pauline in Latin. Altar servers are in cassock and surplice at all Masses, and are you ready?? confessions prior to Masses, not only on Saturdays…

Communion is received by all at the communion rail either on the tongue or in the hand at **ALL **Masses. Almost everybody knelt, a few didn’t and nobody seemed to get upset over it. It was the first time I had seen people receive in the hand kneeling though

 

[richiejm3]

Oh my! You have no clue of the blessing you are passing up for your children! Please, please, reconsider.
Not many can be taught to kneel for the Eucharist! Some out there would give an arm to receive this way.

At my parish, we receive kneeling and by intinction. I did have to instruct my daughter how to receive in the hand. She did fine in the parishes where people stand.

It really is no problem for the child who kneels to go to another parish. I just tell my daughter that this is how they do it there.

Believe me, I would rather kneel and for a while I would just before recieving our Lord. A Priest had instructed me not to do so anymore. This was a battle for me for a while. After praying and doing some reading I determined that I am being instructed by the Bishops of the U.S. who have been appointed by Christ himself to lead and guide me. And I have come to the conclusion that it would be best to obey these Christ appointed leaders in these defined matters instead of doing what I feel would better suit me. I believe our gesters are very important but I think that obediance is a more sure route to the truth. I guess my goal here is to be as completly obediant to the Church as I can.

I do believe that kneeling would be a very good expeiriance for my children but I wouldn’t do it if I thought it could foster any ideas of disobediance towards the Church and so I will pray about it. Thank you and I do value everyones time here.

 

[chicago]

… and are you ready?? confessions prior to Masses, not only on Saturdays…

As an aside, in my experience, I find that the places which are doing the best with fostering the Sacrament of Reconciliation are the ones offering it on Sundays before (and sometimes during/after) Mass. Maybe they’re onto something that the others ought to consider.

 

[Brendan]

The Holy See approved the USCCB version of the Instruction of the General Missal, thereby making it the norm in the US.

Yes, I know. The Holy See approved it as a Particular Norm, that is a Norm particualr to a specific See or Synod.

The Vatican later clarified (as Netmil(name removed by moderator) so kindly provided) that it was not the intent of the approval of this particular norm to supercede the universal norm of kneeling.

 

[Brendan]

After praying and doing some reading I determined that I am being instructed by the Bishops of the U.S. who have been appointed by Christ himself to lead and guide me.

I do hope you have also realized that the instruction you are recieving from the US Bishops in no way precludes you kneeling to recieve Communion, provided you do so not out of any act of disobedience; but rather as a specific act of personal piety or a sign of unity with the Universal Church.

Any direction you would recieve to the contrary would not be true instruction, but rather the propogation of a falsehood.

 

[AlexV]

Note: the question is asked because it will trouble the poster “constantly”, a poster who notes a propensity to “nitpick”, and who is only, in the end, concerned with being “obedient”.

How did this all come about in Catholic liturgical history? This scrupulous obsession with following every norm issued by the bishops as if all were of equal importance (i.e., spiritual life and death)? No nuance, no judiciousness, no historical context or appreciation for legitimate liturgical diversity…

…just “nitpicking constantly so as to be obedient”.

For the sake of answering this recent pseudo-problem in American Novus Ordo liturgy: KNEELING IS NOT DISOBEDIENT.

 

[palmas85]

As an aside, in my experience, I find that the places which are doing the best with fostering the Sacrament of Reconciliation are the ones offering it on Sundays before (and sometimes during/after) Mass. Maybe they’re onto something that the others ought to consider.

I agree. There are several churches in San Diego which offer confessions prior to** EVERY MASS **as well as a set time on Saturdays. The sacrament is very well received and well attended.

 

[netmilsmom]

I agree. There are several churches in San Diego which offer confessions prior to** EVERY MASS **as well as a set time on Saturdays. The sacrament is very well received and well attended.

Exactly!!
Our parish offers confessions 1/2 hour before every mass and two hours on Saturday. Many times one will be waiting and have miss the beginning of mass.
We go on Saturdays when the lines are shorter and have more time.

For Christmas and Easter there are confessional set up in the Main, the chapel and the cryroom. Last Easter we had 12 priests (I think, may have been more). Our pastor asks those who are weekly partakers of the sacrament to refrain from coming on the day that all the priest are there to encourage those who need it most and they are still packed!

I love my parish!