'No compulsion in religiion' is not true in islam

[Jay53]

AlGabriel and sedonaman, Do you agree that there should be compulsion in religion or no Compulsion in the matters of faith? that is the topic so please come to the topic and give your expert opinion. What do you say, Compulsion or no Compulsion. Welcome.

I disagree - the topic is whether the claim **in Islam **that there is “no compulsion in religion” is true or false. The fact that people who leave Islam are killed and such killings are supported in Islamic teachings/documents leads one to believe that this verse is false.

 

[sedonaman]

AlGabriel and sedonaman, Do you agree that there should be compulsion in religion or no Compulsion in the matters of faith? that is the topic so please come to the topic and give your expert opinion. What do you say, Compulsion or no Compulsion. Welcome.

Define “compulsion”.

 

[sedonaman]

How do you define a moderate?

I’m glad you asked:

“What is a ‘moderate Muslim?’ What defines moderate? There are two references for moderation. The [Muslim apologist’s] reference is ‘nice.’ A moderate is a nice person who won’t harm a kafir (an unbeliever).

"But we are talking about a Muslim, so the only valid reference for moderation is Islam, not ‘nice.’ It is the model of Mohammed who determines what Islam is. So if a Muslim imitates the Sunna of Mohammed, then he is moderate. Sunna is the words and deeds of Mohammed, the perfect pattern for all Muslims. The Koran says over 70 times that all Muslims are to imitate Mohammed in every detail of their life. To that end Islam has an enormous literature about Mohammed in the Sira (his sacred biography) and the Hadith (his sacred traditions).

"At this point we meet the main sticking point in understanding the doctrine of Islam. Muslims are to be Mohammedans and follow the Koran. But which Mohammed and which Koran do they follow? Mohammed preached the religion of Islam in Mecca for 13 years and gained 150 followers. In Mecca the Koran is generally religious.

“Then Mohammed moved to Medina and became a politician and warrior. In 10 years time he annihilated the Jews of Medina, who were half of the town’s citizens. Then he turned to attacking all kafirs. In the last 9 years of his life he was involved in a violent event every 6 weeks, on the average. He died without a single enemy left in Arabia. The Koran in Medina is political in nature and very violent.
…

“The term ‘moderate’ Muslim has no meaning because it does not identify which side of Islam the moderate is.
…

“What does ‘radical’ mean? Killing, robbing, enslaving, assassination, torture, deceiving, jihad? As long as those behaviors occur with the kafirs on the receiving end, they are all acts that were performed by Mohammed. If Mohammed did them, then they are not radical. Mohammed defines the middle of the road – normative behavior.
…

“The strict meaning of kafir is unbeliever, but unbeliever is a neutral term. The Koran defines kafir by its usage. Kafirs can be robbed, raped, crucified, tortured, deceived, enslaved, plotted against, insulted, and more. Kafir is the worst word in human language.”

Ref: “Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude”
politicalislam.com/blog/refuting-counter-terrorism-dhimmitude
[Emphasis added]

You are a kafir and don’t know it.

And Christianities many many atrocities do not mean one should not try to be fair to it.

To the extent there were “many many atrocities” committed by “Christianities”, they did so contrary to Christ’s teachings; Muslims commit atrocities in imitation of Mohammed, their “perfect” example. They tell us so themselves: “We are not fighting so that you will offer us something; we are fighting to eliminate you.” – Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezb’allah. If you want to be “fair” why don’t you consider what they tell us?

 

[Jay53]

Just thought I would add this story to the mix. I’ve excerpted some of the article below, but you can read the whole story at the link.

A young Christian man was raped and brutally murdered in Pakistan for refusing to convert to Islam, and police are doing nothing about it, the victim’s brother and minister told FOXNews.com.

The family believes Litto Ghauri was murdered by the brothers of his Muslim girlfriend, Shazi Cheema, after they found him in a compromising sexual position with their sister.
The Rev. Haroon Bhatti, a Christian clergyman in the village and a friend of the Ghauri family, said Cheema’s three brothers came to Litto Ghauri’s house on May 11 and gave him an ultimatum: Marry their sister and convert to Islam.

Ghauri agreed to the marriage but refused to accept Islam, and the brothers kidnapped him at gunpoint and drove him to a remote farmhouse, where they tortured and murdered him, the minister said.

After police discovered the body, Ghauri’s death was declared a homicide and the family filed paperwork with the Atta Shaheed police station in their small village, Adda 44SB. But Ghauri’s brother said police still have not arrested the alleged killers and have refused to meet with his family.

“What the Muslim society has done in Pakistan is just associate low caste with being Christian,” said Jeremy Sewall, Advocacy Director of the International Christian Concern, which first reported the killing. “Many of these people, they clean human waste and that’s their job, and that’s what Christians are known for in Pakistan.”

The Rev. Bhatti says that radical Muslims frequently try to trap Christian men into converting to Islam by using a woman as bait — and Ghauri suspects the involvement of his dead brother’s girlfriend in trying to entrap him.

The Ministry of Religious Affairs, which is supposed to protect religious freedom, has a verse from the Koran on its masthead, the report said: "Islam is the only religion acceptable to God."

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526126,00.html

Eternal Rest grant unto Litto Ghauri, O Lord, and let Perpetual Light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen.

May God also bless the family and give them strength and renewal of faith through this time.

 

[koranist]

I see it over and over again. Christians and Jews attacking islam but relying on Sunni jurisprudence. Muslims come and defend the Islam they were raised only to discover that the Sunni jurists, through hadiths and abrogations, did abrogate many verses in the Koran and claimed verse 9-29 abrogated all the verses of the Koran and commanded offensive Jihad. Never mind that the term jihad in the Koran is not about fighting(qital is what Koran uses), many Sunnis and shias do not know the teachings of their sects. The discourse in Islamic countries is very deceptive and many Islamist portray a very different Islam than what the jursits portray. At the same time many Christians and Jews rely on hadith but when it comes to the Koran they deceive themselves and others. If there was violence in the Koran , why the need to abrogate? But because the Koran’s is s\Islam’s holy book, many Christians and Jews have the need to find evidence from it about their attacks in Islam. And thats where we Koranist come in.

The reality is there is no offensive Jihad in the Koran and their is no forced religion and in fact their is no Shariah law. It was all invented by the dynasties centuries after Muhammad.
So the question is who speaks for Muhammad? The Koran, or the hadiths that was compiled centuries after him? But one thing i despise about many Jews and Christians is when they fudge the verses of the Koran like Sam777 does and some others here. Be honest and be transparent. There is no forced conversions and offensive wars and all that in the Koran. Quote the verses correct. They are afraid that without the Koran their attacks on Islam with be not strong. But in reality the Koran has no business with Sunnism and Shiasm. These are political movements.

While the Koran came to confirm the previous scriptures, Sunnis and Shias say it abrogated it and these scriptures have been corrupted. While the Koran says all the prophets and messengers should be followed equally and we should not seperate between them, Sunnis and Shias believe Muhamamd is the one to follow and the others have been abrogated and Muhamamd is the best of creation. While the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel should be followed by the Jews and Christians, Sunnis and Shias believe they are infidels and these scriptures are now worthless.

Sunnis don’t eat with their right hand. Did the Koran say that? Sunni men don’t wear gold and silk, did the Koran say that? Sunnis grow berads as an act of piety, did the Koran say that? Sunni women can not marry except a Muslim, did the Koran say that? Sunnis believe that those who leave Islam should be persecuted, did the Koran say that?

Ok, so you get what I mean.

So who speaks for Islam. The Koran, or the hadiths? But don’t tell me they compliment each other. They CONTRADICT each other in many cases.

 

[planten]

You really need to back up your generalizations with proof. I don’t recall any command that Moses gave to anyone to continue whatever behavior he did, or Solomon commanding us to continue his behaviors. In fact, Jesus stopped stonings, had a clear message of ‘one man and one woman for marriage’, etc. I have no idea why you would be defending Islam when you are so obviously bothered by what you perceive are injustices. What you bring up is thousands of years old.

** Agabriel, You are wrong. Jesus never stopped stoning. he did not abrogate the punishment of stoning. He allowed it very well. he only suggested that the first stone should be thrown by some one who was not an adulterer. So the punishment for adultery can only be stopped if Jesus knew that all the Jews and christians are adulterers**.

If you are bothered by the Old Testament then you should be very bothered by what Muslims do to this very day and the ones who are defending those behaviors by either their inaction, or when they riot in the streets when their jihadists get attacked back after years of lobbing bombs into Israel

.

There are many things common between the Jews and Muslims. They eat pure things only and do not go near the flesh of swine. they circumsize the foreskin. The best of all, the Jews and the Muslims are strict monotheists. Christians lack all these three good things while they have the worst kind of drinking and gambling and sex life in their society.

I really do not know what your point is - maybe to show us your vocabulary - but other than that your defense of Islam when you abhor such behavior is confusing.

When some non-Catholic makes a good point, you always say you do not understand. Why is that? Do you want to weaken the point or you want to avoid the seriousness of that good point. That is not a good attitude.

 

[planten]

In view of its history, being “fair” to Islam would be like being fair to the Mafia, as this non-Christian author observes:

The Decrees of Islam
by Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari
31 Dec, 2008
islam-watch.org/Brahmachari/Decrees-of-Islam-1.htm

This is not to say there are no well-meaning Muslims, but wherever Islam rules, the so-called “moderates” are nowhere to be seen or heard.

**sedonoman, the moderates have all been active. You had the king Henry the Eighth in England. And other kings having divine rights. Some people stood up against them and removed the divine right of kings. That is an effort every where.

Muslim moderates do try to stand up against bombing and oppression and even try to give their life to save the truth, just like Jesus tried to give his life for the sake of truth. However his sacrifice was accepted and life was spared the God Almighty.**

 

[sedonaman]

**sedonoman, the moderates have all been active. You had the king Henry the Eighth in England. And other kings having divine rights. Some people stood up against them and removed the divine right of kings. That is an effort every where.
**

King Henry was not a Muslim. What does he have to do with so-called “moderate” Muslims?

**
Muslim moderates do try to stand up against bombing and oppression … **

Oh yeah? Well name some of them.

 

[Jay53]

Oh yeah? Well name some of them.

Here’s one (and you can see what happened to him.)

May he rest in peace.

ISLAMABAD — Supporters of a popular moderate cleric mourned his assassination in one of several suicide bombings for which the Taliban claimed responsibility Saturday to retaliate for a Pakistani military offensive against extremists.
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526089,00.html

Among the dead was Sarfraz Naeemi, the senior cleric at the Jamia Naeemia seminary in the eastern city of Lahore. He is a nationally known figure who in the past has been critical of the Taliban.
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525943,00.html

 

[Jay53]

** Agabriel, You are wrong. Jesus never stopped stoning. he did not abrogate the punishment of stoning. He allowed it very well. he only suggested that the first stone should be thrown by some one who was not an adulterer. So the punishment for adultery can only be stopped if Jesus knew that all the Jews and christians are adulterers**.

As usual this is off topic, but I feel compelled to correct this. Jesus did NOT say that “the first stone should be cast by some one who was not an adulterer”. Here is the correct verse:

But when they continued asking him, he raised himself and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” John 8:7

Note the words WITHOUT SIN. It does not specify adultery at all. Since Jesus is the only One without sin, no one can cast a stone. Jesus thereby effectively eliminated this punishment. We are all sinners.
.

 

[planten]

King Henry was not a Muslim. What does he have to do with so-called “moderate” Muslims?

You have completely misunderstood the good work done by some (Christian) moderates.

Oh yeah? Well name some of them.

There is no need to teach you anything at this time..

 

[planten]

Changes are being made in the bible daily. It is difficult to keep track of even one generation of changes.

Planten you keep trying to prove what is in the Bible without obviously having read it or if you have read it is some considerable time ago. Considering hundreds of editions of the Bible are available on-line your inability to actually cite scripture accurately bespeaks laziness. I purposefully do not cite Q’uranic excerpts as it is not the religous text I grew up with

.

I do not do anything with any bad intentions. My reply here is again what I gave in my above para i.e. too many slight changes in the bible going on in the name of improvement. Does a Godly book need to be improved??

In addition you are recently becoming highly offensive in your posts - what was once comedy is now degenerating into mere malicous insults. I fail also to see what King Henry the VIII of England has to do anything. When you say ‘you had’ him it is bizarre. The majority of posters here are Americans, King Henry is a part of English and British history. You are just once again lumping everyone Christian and non-Muslim into one giant homogenous stew without regard for ethnic or national differences. I may as well say Egypt had Kemel Ataturk as a ruler as after all he was a Muslim and both Egypt and Turkey were states with a population made up primarily of Muslims. It would be a nonsensical statement but no less nonsensical than saying Christians from widely differing culturual and national backgrounds had King Henry

.

**Please undrstand that King Henry the 8th was a christian king. Whatever he was doing and the other christian kings of England were doing was considered “divine”. That was according to the christian faith and that was wrong.

Some liberals (christians) came along and corrected the matter. I was trying to point out that there are liberals every where. Only one has to open his/her eyes to see them.**

I deplore the constant attempts to present all Muslims as bogeymen but your own approach of been a friend one minute and then sneering at the filthy Christians is equally deplorable.

I do not call any one filthy. I love every one. When some one goes out of control over the discussion and starts one sided traffic, i have to show the other side too. Otherwise i have nothing against the christians or the jews or the Americans or the English (and the Irish too). I love them all.

 

[sedonaman]

You have completely misunderstood the good work done by some (Christian) moderates.

.

As though you didn’t know, the subject was moderate Muslims. Why do you inject extraneous information into a discussion?

There is no need to teach you anything at this time..

Ha! I figured there weren’t any.

 

[planten]

** The topic is “‘No compulsion in religiion’ is not true in islam”. But I see that it is very much written in the Quran, verse 2:256. It is a very good verse giving the right to all persons to follow any faith they like.

On the other hand, There is nothing like that in the bible. Also the bible does not believe or say that God spoke to every nation and sent messengers to every nation. So bible lacks many good points (teachings) when compared to Quran.**

 

[sedonaman]

** The topic is “‘No compulsion in religiion’ is not true in islam”. But I see that it is very much written in the Quran, verse 2:256. It is a very good verse giving the right to all persons to follow any faith they like.
**

That’s right! But again we have to consider the Muslim mindset: If I hold a gun to your head and say, “Deny Mohammed, and become a Christian or I’ll shoot you,” you still have freedom of choice.

On the other hand, There is nothing like that in the bible.

Right again! The Bible is better because it says that man is created in the image and likeness of God, and as such, has free will.

Also the bible does not believe or say that God spoke to every nation and sent messengers to every nation.

You have made this claim eighteen bazzillion times and have been asked almost as many to name them. Who was God’s messenger to the Native Americans? Who was God’s messenger to the South-Sea Islanders? Who was God’s messengers to the billions who have never heard of Him?

Either tell us or stop making this claim.

So bible lacks many good points (teachings) when compared to Quran.

“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

 

[sedonaman]

**
…
So bible lacks many good points (teachings) when compared to Quran.**

From the Dictionary of Islamic Terms: good - adj., characterized by the advancement of Islam.