No Consciousness or Perception in Buddhist Nirvana?

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We are trapped in an ocean of suffering. Self created suffering from misunderstandings of the real nature of things.
Can you explain that a bit?

Would this include sufferings from such things as birth defects or cancer?

Would it include suffering from depression or natural grieving from the death of a loved one?

Would it include suffering from an accident?

Would each of those be “a self created suffering” having a “misunderstanding of the real nature of things” as a basis?

Would it mean possibly something in nature has been “thrown” off by another individual?
 
Okay you are totally misrepresenting Parinirvana (which is not biblical/real, btw).
Of course, parinirvana is not biblical. I’m not discussing the Bible or Catholic doctrine, I’m discussing Buddhism.

How am I misrepresenting parinirvana? In the Dabba Sutta, regarding the parinibbana of Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, it states
The body broke up, perception ceased, feelings went cold[1] — all — fabrications were stilled, consciousness has come to an end.
 
Of course, parinirvana is not biblical. I’m not discussing the Bible or Catholic doctrine, I’m discussing Buddhism.

How am I misrepresenting parinirvana? In the Dabba Sutta, regarding the parinibbana of Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, it states
Sorry for the “not biblical” thing, I felt like I was encouraging an idea, I don’t know, but anyway…

Well there are different branches of Buddhism, but I still feel that in this context,
the consciousness that does die is that of the individual self, again like a drop of
rain falling into the ocean.
 
Okay you are totally misrepresenting Parinirvana (which is not biblical/real, btw).
In that state of enlightment and no more cycles of life, death, & rebirth, the one
that reaches this state experiences Pure Bliss and Pure Consciousness.

You don’t have you’re consciousness, that’s true, but you were an illusion, you
are not yourself BY YOURSELF, but there is only One Mind, One Spirit, ONE
SUPREME ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS (guess I can use Brahman here).
Brahma that sounds Hindu long after buddhism. Unless you’re talking Jainism. Remember buddhism is non-theistic. It’s Karma and a mass or collective Karma we share. Freedom from suffering can be accomplished here. Buddha’s teachings on freedom from suffering help me here and now.
 
Can you explain that a bit?

Would this include sufferings from such things as birth defects or cancer?

Would it include suffering from depression or natural grieving from the death of a loved one?

Would it include suffering from an accident?

Would each of those be “a self created suffering” having a “misunderstanding of the real nature of things” as a basis?

Would it mean possibly something in nature has been “thrown” off by another individual?
Yep. It would include all those things. There’s no such thing as incurable disease only those who don’t know how to cure it or it’s nature. “My people suffer from a lack of knowledge.” Birth defects are more a teaching aid I would say. Some higher part of us or karma sees fit to endure this.
 
How do you know any of this is true if Buddha was someone who just lived and passed away like other human beings? Who told you (or the book or person that informed you) that he attained Pariniravana after his death? How did he find that out?

If all descriptions of Nirvana fall short and you haven’t personally attained it, how do you know that all descriptions fall short?

EDIT: I am not asking these to belittle your faith but just honest questions I had while reading your post.
Because those who have attained Nirvanna tell us that. All is faith. He fell over and heavenly music played. (Like beatfic vision if you will).
 
Why the rebirth? Does the person is being made known of what his past life is - whether a sin or virtue? Thus in his/her rebirth, is he/she to correct/maintain his past life? If not, what is the motivation in one’s life since after death ‘it is finished’ if in the re-incarnation one does not know what one was in the past life?
Jesus’s religion and people taught reincarnation too. It may not be taught in the church because Jesus didn’t feel that the people he was talking to needed to know about this kind of thing. [The catholics]. I could get into him studying buddhism and Knights Templar but it’s also possible that the church and the powers that be didn’t want it taught. You can’t gain all experience after just one life. I haven’t been a woman since the 1300s that experience goes into the soul. I am also an avatar or emmanation of buddha Saraswati who is outside of time. She sends her emmanations into the three times to help creation. I think in time when all ths is over and Nirvanna is close, you will realize that sin/virtue, well there’s not much difference in the two. Only the perception of such. Now we see through a glass darkly. Our perception is off and needs changed. We need to pursue what we see from here as virtue and eschew evil.
 
Thanks. 🙂

Seems there is an interruption in one’s awareness of one’s life journey until the Nirvana.
I have found that my angels that have been with me in many lifetimes when something comes up they don’t want me to know will “shut off the picture”. Could you imagine the regrets and deaths and pain and sorrow of innumerable lifetimes on your shoulders? We have enough guilt and sorrow for what we’ve done in only what we can remember of one lifetime.
 
You can’t gain all experience after just one life. I haven’t been a woman since the 1300s that experience goes into the soul. I am also an avatar or emmanation of buddha Saraswati who is outside of time. She sends her emmanations into the three times to help creation.
I’m a bit lost in following this.

Does this mean you have been a variety of beings, and in past lives you were a woman, but haven’t been a woman since the 1300s.

What does it mean to be “an avatar or emmanation of buddha Saraswati”?
 
Ah, a thread on Buddhism. Since you mention about life and death … just curious, how many times has a person had to die and live in order to attain nirvana?
There is no set number, but the number is very large:

[The Buddha said:] “What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

“This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

– Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3
And what is re-incarnation?
The continuation of the causal chain of which you are part. What you are now is the sum of many past causes. Unresolved causes will cause you to continue into the future. Someone who has attained nirvana no longer creates any new causes to be resolved, and so the chain ceases on death rather than continues into a subsequent life.

rossum
 
How do you know any of this is true if Buddha was someone who just lived and passed away like other human beings?
It works. The Buddha himself said to test his words to see if they gave the results he promised:

[The Buddha said:] “Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

– Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 3.65

Essentially, Buddhism is a collection of techniques that work. Undoubtedly, many of the techniques have been added since the Buddha died, and that is not a problem. As long as the path leads up the mountain and can be useful for some people then it is acceptable.
If all descriptions of Nirvana fall short and you haven’t personally attained it, how do you know that all descriptions fall short?
Because people who have attained nirvana have said so. Can a description of swimming ever give you the actual experience of swimming? How can words on their own convey the actual sensation of swimming in water?

Here is (probably) one description of nirvana, and one of the more approachable ones from the Western point of view:

[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything - without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening.

I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures, the clarity and fluidity of shape and line, the design of the monumental bodies composed into the rock shape and landscape, figure rock and tree. And the sweep of bare rock slopping away on the other side of the hollow, where you can go back and see different aspects of the figures. Looking at these figures I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded (much more “imperative” than Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa because completely simple and straightforward).

The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem and really no “mystery.” All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life is charged with dharmakaya… everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination. … I mean, I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

It says everything, it needs nothing. And because it needs nothing it can afford to be silent, unnoticed, undiscovered. It does not need to be discovered. It is we who need to discover it.

– The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum
 
I’m a bit lost in following this.

Does this mean you have been a variety of beings, and in past lives you were a woman, but haven’t been a woman since the 1300s.

What does it mean to be “an avatar or emmanation of buddha Saraswati”?
I know some of these are foreign to you. For Avatar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar

The hinduism definition is the one I mean.

We have all been a variety of beings and human beings now for a long time and yes I haven’t been a woman since the 1300s.
now do you see why the church doesn’t get into reincarnation. Not that it doesn’t exist. Jesus just didn’t get into it. He had his message. He knew all this yes and there is record of him talking about it. but he said save the meat for the mature
HTH
 
It works. The Buddha himself said to test his words to see if they gave the results he promised:

[The Buddha said:] “Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

– Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 3.65

Essentially, Buddhism is a collection of techniques that work. Undoubtedly, many of the techniques have been added since the Buddha died, and that is not a problem. As long as the path leads up the mountain and can be useful for some people then it is acceptable.

Because people who have attained nirvana have said so. Can a description of swimming ever give you the actual experience of swimming? How can words on their own convey the actual sensation of swimming in water?

Here is (probably) one description of nirvana, and one of the more approachable ones from the Western point of view:

[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything - without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening.

I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures, the clarity and fluidity of shape and line, the design of the monumental bodies composed into the rock shape and landscape, figure rock and tree. And the sweep of bare rock slopping away on the other side of the hollow, where you can go back and see different aspects of the figures. Looking at these figures I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded (much more “imperative” than Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa because completely simple and straightforward).

The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem and really no “mystery.” All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life is charged with dharmakaya… everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination. … I mean, I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

It says everything, it needs nothing. And because it needs nothing it can afford to be silent, unnoticed, undiscovered. It does not need to be discovered. It is we who need to discover it.

– The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum
Very good rossum. Are you Theravadin? The Tibetan tradition I’m most familiar with is Vajrayana the higher vehicle. I should put on my religion catholic/buddhist because when I became catholic I never left buddhism. Why should I. Do you have a dharma name?
 
I know some of these are foreign to you. For Avatar

We have all been a variety of beings and human beings now for a long time and yes I haven’t been a woman since the 1300s.
now do you see why the church doesn’t get into reincarnation. Not that it doesn’t exist. Jesus just didn’t get into it. He had his message. He knew all this yes and there is record of him talking about it. but he said save the meat for the mature
HTH
Where is it recorded that Jesus knew about reincarnation? (I guess its reincarnation that you are referring when you write that you (we) have all been a variety of beings and human beings.)

Do you know this because you were an avatar, the human or animal form of a Hindu god on earth?
 
It works. The Buddha himself said to test his words to see if they gave the results he promised:

[The Buddha said:] “Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

– Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 3.65

Essentially, Buddhism is a collection of techniques that work. Undoubtedly, many of the techniques have been added since the Buddha died, and that is not a problem. As long as the path leads up the mountain and can be useful for some people then it is acceptable.
What do you mean by “It works”? Have you died once and experienced that this is true? Can you elaborate on how you know it works?

Also, you did not answer how you knew that Buddha reached Paranirvana after his death. Who witnessed that he did so?
Because people who have attained nirvana have said so. Can a description of swimming ever give you the actual experience of swimming? How can words on their own convey the actual sensation of swimming in water?
How do you know that someone else has truly attained Nirvana if no description of it exists? What if they are just lying?
Here is (probably) one description of nirvana, and one of the more approachable ones from the Western point of view:

[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything - without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening…

I do not mean to belittle your belief here. But there are some serious questions about what you have written.

You describe states of Sunyata, Nirvana while there is no actual description for them. You claim you got this info from those who had attained it. But how would you be able to know they attained it? Can they mimic attaining it if they knew what you expected them to say?

It just seems like you are subscribing to a belief system that is completely based on other normal human beings like yourself who claim that they are experiencing a different state of mind. Would you think that is a reasonable source to arrange your life around?​
 
Very good rossum. Are you Theravadin?
Sort of. My practice is mostly Theravada, with some Soto Zen thrown in. My theory is Mahayana, Prasangika-Madhyamika. I often use the Theravada approach as an introduction to those who have little knowledge of Buddhism. Jumping straight into Nagarjuna can be disconcerting for those who do not have a grounding in the Theravada background.
The Tibetan tradition I’m most familiar with is Vajrayana the higher vehicle.
I have tried some Tibetan techniques, but they didn’t work for me – I am completely rubbish at visualisation. Obviously, I read some of the more philosophically oriented Tibetan texts related the the Prajñaparamita, Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti.
I should put on my religion catholic/buddhist because when I became catholic I never left buddhism. Why should I.
Indeed. There are many useful techniques in the older forms of Christianity. I sometimes suggest the Jesus Prayer to Christians who want to try meditation.
Do you have a dharma name?
No.

rossum
 
What do you mean by “It works”?
The Buddha promised that using his techniques would lead to peace, happiness and nirvana. I have proved the first two to myself in my own life. Nirvana will have to wait, though others have attained it. So far I am following a path, and I have passed a number of the landmarks that I was told I would find on the path. That gives me confidence that the map I am using is a good one.

Do I have absolute certainty? No. If I waited for absolute certainty then I would never do anything. Are you absolutely certain that you will not be struck by a meteorite if you step outside your front door?
Also, you did not answer how you knew that Buddha reached Paranirvana after his death. Who witnessed that he did so?
Ananda was present when the Buddha died. Many more were present when he was cremated.
How do you know that someone else has truly attained Nirvana if no description of it exists? What if they are just lying?
Do you think that Thomas Merton was lying in the passage I quoted?
You describe states of Sunyata, Nirvana while there is no actual description for them.
There are many descriptions. Here is another one:

There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned. If there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no escape would be possible from the born, become, made, conditioned. But precisely because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, escape from the born, become, made, conditioned is possible.

– Udana 8.3

It is not that there are no descriptions. My point is that the descriptions are just descriptions, not the actuality. I can describe a cigarette lighter. That description will not actually light a cigarette. The description of X is not the same as X.
Can they mimic attaining it if they knew what you expected them to say?
Difficult, but probably possible. They would have to be monks or nuns and to have spent years meditating. The Buddha took six years while Bodhidharma took seven. That is a very long time to keep up a pretence.
It just seems like you are subscribing to a belief system that is completely based on other normal human beings like yourself who claim that they are experiencing a different state of mind. Would you think that is a reasonable source to arrange your life around?
The Buddha was a normal human being. What he did others can do as well. That is the point, everyone can become enlightened. It just takes longer for some than for others. As to the “different state of mind”, see Buddhists ‘really are happier’. Meditation techniques do indeed change the way our minds work. Meditation techniques have been incorporated into non-religious therapies such as Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy.

Do I have absolute certainty about this? No. Do I have reasonable confidence that the path I am following is helpful and taking me to a worthwhile destination? Yes.

rossum
 
The Buddha promised that using his techniques would lead to peace, happiness and nirvana. I have proved the first two to myself in my own life. Nirvana will have to wait, though others have attained it. So far I am following a path, and I have passed a number of the landmarks that I was told I would find on the path. That gives me confidence that the map I am using is a good one.

Do I have absolute certainty? No. If I waited for absolute certainty then I would never do anything. Are you absolutely certain that you will not be struck by a meteorite if you step outside your front door?
I am not speaking of absolute certainty. I am asking if you have any certainty?

Just because peace and happiness came to you doesn’t mean Nirvana is coming too. Since you do not know if someone actually attained Nirvana (if you do, you haven’t mentioned it so far as to how you concluded that) it seems like you are following a myth with no basis to think it true in the first place, right?
Ananda was present when the Buddha died. Many more were present when he was cremated.
I understand. But the claims are about things that happened after his death. So how can one know such things?
Do you think that Thomas Merton was lying in the passage I quoted?
I do not presume anything. I am just analyzing the evidence. Thomas Merton could very well have been mislead if he didn’t ask why think Nirvana is true in the first place.
There are many descriptions. Here is another one:

There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned. If there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no escape would be possible from the born, become, made, conditioned. But precisely because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, escape from the born, become, made, conditioned is possible.

– Udana 8.3

It is not that there are no descriptions. My point is that the descriptions are just descriptions, not the actuality. I can describe a cigarette lighter. That description will not actually light a cigarette. The description of X is not the same as X.
Yes, I do understand what you are saying. But all I am asking is how would you know if someone ever attained it?
Difficult, but probably possible. They would have to be monks or nuns and to have spent years meditating. The Buddha took six years while Bodhidharma took seven. That is a very long time to keep up a pretence.
What is there to pretend? Is a Nirvana person who can stay in a meditative stance for a long time? How do we conclude that is true?
The Buddha was a normal human being. What he did others can do as well. That is the point, everyone can become enlightened. It just takes longer for some than for others. As to the “different state of mind”, see Buddhists ‘really are happier’. Meditation techniques do indeed change the way our minds work. Meditation techniques have been incorporated into non-religious therapies such as Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy.

Do I have absolute certainty about this? No. Do I have reasonable confidence that the path I am following is helpful and taking me to a worthwhile destination? Yes.
If Buddha is a normal person, what reason do you and I have to think that
  1. He had any knowledge beyond what we know?
  2. He came to know concepts such as Nirvana to be true states rather than some mental issue he was having?
 
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