No contrition?

[Thoughtfulone]

I have never claimed that the Church “posesses all Truth”. The Truth she possesses was given to her by Christ. It specifically relates to the things we need to know in order to attain heaven. The doctrines of the faith, especially those about sexual sin, have never changed, and cannot be changed. They are part of the immutable deposit of faith.

They cannot change per se, but they can “evolve” as have many teachings of the Church over the centuries.

I agree, but the promise that the HS would lead the Church into all Truth was given to the Magesterium, where it resides to this day. For that reason, none of us need be concerned that one person may not be listening, because it is the Church that speaks.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, you can show “love” through your actions by DOING something for your enemies or even by NOT DOING something against them. Tell me then, how one can show hatred/regret for sin…I would have said by simply not committing that sin, amending one’s life, attempting to follow God’s will in the future etc., but you have already said that it is not enough to amend one’s life…so what is it?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

The foot note is referencing the Ecumenical Council of Trent.

I was reading today some of Trent…so hence I am posting…

Trent notes the above as well as states:

" Wherefore the holy Synod declares, that this contrition contains not only a cessation from sin, and the purpose and the beginning of a new life, but also a hatred of the old…"(Trent, Fourteenth Session…Chapter IV)

Of course again note…that one is not detesting any “good” that God has brought out of ones sins…but one is detesting the evil…the sin that one has done…it is a “detestation for the sin committed” (CCC 1451)

---

Such is a choice…involving the will…a repentance…(again with or without effects in ones emotions)…a turning away from all mortal sin…a detesting of the sins…a turning toward the truth…a renewal of ones Faith…of ones living ones baptism…

Jesus said “repent” and believe the Gospel…

 

[kentuckyliz]

God detests fornication and adultery…the Bible is resoundingly clear on that. Even in the New Covenant, Paul, speaking to believers about believers, says that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He had a direct revelation of the God-man Jesus Christ Resurrected–so this is divine revelation, not mere shifting sands of human opinion.

Our society is abnormal; the sinfulness and/or illicitness of fornication and adultery is a universal feature of human cultures. This moral law is obvious through natural law.

It takes continuing conversion so see things as God sees them, especially in our corrupt culture that has crazily strayed so far from God’s ways.

Sin, especially habitual sin, darkens the intellect and compromises the will. You will not know the damage of your sin until the unfolding of your whole life, and perhaps not deeply and fully and clearly until the next life.

So–if you did what was right, are you going to teach your children to fornicate freely no matter what God says? That is failing in your first duty as a parent–doing your best to get your children to heaven.

And I pose my favorite Bible pop quiz once again: when in the Bible, it says, “They did what was right in their own eyes,” is that a good thing or a bad thing? Look it up and read it in context and you will have your answer.

It took me years to be deeply converted and scrubbed clean of my sins, and I am not done yet–God is till working on me. Sometimes it feels like a Silkwood shower! So I am preaching primarily to myself here, since I am the most miserable of unworthy sinners.

 

[Bookcat]

“conversion (metanoia), in its precisely Christian meaning, signifies a change in thinking and in acting, as the expression of the new life in Christ proclaimed by faith: a continuous reform of thought and deeds directed at an ever more intense identification with Christ (cf. Gal 2:20), to which the baptized are called before all else. This is, in the first place, the meaning of the call made by Jesus himself: “repent and believe in the Gospel””

From the Doctrinal Note of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on some aspects of Evangelization approved by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Thoughtfulone]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

The foot note is referencing the Ecumenical Council of Trent.

I was reading today some of Trent…so hence I am posting…

Trent notes the above as well as states:

" Wherefore the holy Synod declares, that this contrition contains not only a cessation from sin, and the purpose and the beginning of a new life, but also a hatred of the old…"(Trent, Fourteenth Session…Chapter IV)

Of course again note…that one is not detesting any “good” that God has brought out of ones sins…but one is detesting the evil…the sin that one has done…it is a “detestation for the sin committed” (CCC 1451)

---

Such is a choice…involving the will…a repentance…(again with or without effects in ones emotions)…a turning away from all mortal sin…a detesting of the sins…a turning toward the truth…a renewal of ones Faith…of ones living ones baptism…

Jesus said “repent” and believe the Gospel…

I know what the CCC says. My question is how SPECIFICALLY does one “hate” or “detest” the sin if it has nothing to do with emotions and if turning away from the sin and turning towards Got is not enough?

I honestly don’t think that you can answer the question because it doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

God detests fornication and adultery…the Bible is resoundingly clear on that. Even in the New Covenant, Paul, speaking to believers about believers, says that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He had a direct revelation of the God-man Jesus Christ Resurrected–so this is divine revelation, not mere shifting sands of human opinion.

Our society is abnormal; the sinfulness and/or illicitness of fornication and adultery is a universal feature of human cultures. This moral law is obvious through natural law.

It takes continuing conversion so see things as God sees them, especially in our corrupt culture that has crazily strayed so far from God’s ways.

Sin, especially habitual sin, darkens the intellect and compromises the will. You will not know the damage of your sin until the unfolding of your whole life, and perhaps not deeply and fully and clearly until the next life.

So–if you did what was right, are you going to teach your children to fornicate freely no matter what God says? That is failing in your first duty as a parent–doing your best to get your children to heaven.

And I pose my favorite Bible pop quiz once again: when in the Bible, it says, “They did what was right in their own eyes,” is that a good thing or a bad thing? Look it up and read it in context and you will have your answer.

It took me years to be deeply converted and scrubbed clean of my sins, and I am not done yet–God is till working on me. Sometimes it feels like a Silkwood shower! So I am preaching primarily to myself here, since I am the most miserable of unworthy sinners.

I think there is a difference in the seriousness of “fornication” when one goes around sleeping with whomever they feel like with no concern for God or other people, and sleeping with your betrothed and ONLY your betrothed before you are married and spend the rest of your lives together.

 

[Bookcat]

I know what the CCC says. My question is how SPECIFICALLY does one “hate” or “detest” the sin if it has nothing to do with emotions and if turning away from the sin and turning towards Got is not enough?

I honestly don’t think that you can answer the question because it doesn’t make any sense.

I have answered it already. Several times.

Ones emotions can enter into it as well…

But emotions do not always follow the will…

It is a choice.

I choose to detest my sins. I choose to love God…I choose to turn away from my sins…I choose to not do them anymore…

 

[Bookcat]

I know what the CCC says. My question is how SPECIFICALLY does one “hate” or “detest” the sin if it has nothing to do with emotions and if turning away from the sin and turning towards Got is not enough?

I honestly don’t think that you can answer the question because it doesn’t make any sense.

Oh and again… read the post above about words and terms…we discussing theology here not words as they are used in other ways…we are not talking about necessarily the emotions… of hate etc

 

[Bookcat]

From the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church issue by Pope Benedict XVI

Act of Faith

O my God, I firmly believe
that you are one God in three divine Persons,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I believe that your divine Son became man
and died for our sins and that he will come
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe these and all the truths
which the Holy Catholic Church teaches
because you have revealed them
who are eternal truth and wisdom,
who can neither deceive nor be deceived.
In this faith I intend to live and die.
Amen.

Act of Hope

O Lord God,
I hope by your grace for the pardon
of all my sins
and after life here to gain eternal happiness
because you have promised it
who are infinitely powerful, faithful, kind,
and merciful.
In this hope I intend to live and die.
Amen.

Act of Love

O Lord God, I love you above all things
and I love my neighbor for your sake
because you are the highest, infinite and perfect
good, worthy of all my love.
In this love I intend to live and die.
Amen.

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because of thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin. Amen.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#A%29%20COMMON%20PRAYERS

 

[Bookcat]

I think there is a difference in the seriousness of “fornication” when one goes around sleeping with whomever they feel like with no concern for God or other people, and sleeping with your betrothed and ONLY your betrothed before you are married and spend the rest of your lives together.

Yes of course. But is it is still gravely sinful.

There is also a difference between robbing ONLY one bank and robbing lots of banks…or committing adultery with ONLY one person instead of doing so with a different person every business trip.

There are degrees of seriousness in serious sin.

(and there can be mitigating factors which reduce the persons culpability…)

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I have answered it already. Several times.

Ones emotions can enter into it as well…

But emotions do not always follow the will…

It is a choice.

I choose to detest my sins. I choose to love God…I choose to turn away from my sins…I choose to not do them anymore…

Fine. I choose to detest my sins. Wow. That was easy.

 

[Bookcat]

From the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church issue by Pope Benedict XVI

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because of thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin. Amen.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#A%29%20COMMON%20PRAYERS

 

[Bookcat]

“conversion (metanoia), in its precisely Christian meaning, signifies a change in thinking and in acting, as the expression of the new life in Christ proclaimed by faith: a continuous reform of thought and deeds directed at an ever more intense identification with Christ (cf. Gal 2:20), to which the baptized are called before all else. This is, in the first place, the meaning of the call made by Jesus himself: “repent and believe in the Gospel””

From the Doctrinal Note of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on some aspects of Evangelization approved by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[guanophore]

They cannot change per se, but they can “evolve” as have many teachings of the Church over the centuries.

It seems like you are thinking of doctrinal “development” which is not “evolution”. “Evolve” indicates changes and the doctrine can never change. Our understanding of it, and how it applies can develop though. It is our perception of the doctrine that develops, not the doctrine itself.

Don’t forget, we Catholics are also “the Church”.

The Holy Spirit will not reveal a “truth” to an individual that is in opposition to what He has already revealed to the Church. We can benefit from His guidance infallibly in the Church so long as we are in unity with the teaching authority appointed by Christ.

But our understanding of it does.

Yes, and how we apply that. For example, there was no artificial birth control or invitro fertilzation in the day of the Apostles. So it falls to the Magesterium to guide the faithful in how their teachings are to be applied to these new technologies.

How can you say that I don’t want to consider my actions sinful?

Because you said they were fun, and because you don’ t see any negative consequences of them, you don’t believe they hurt anyone (including yourself) and you like the results that were produced (the fruit).

A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, nor a good tree, bad fruit. If you believe your sins brought good fruit, then you cannot consider the tree from which they came “bad” or sinful.

 If I thought they were seriously sinful, I might be able to have more contrition and none of this would matter...I wouldn't be worried about not having enough contrition for absolution.

I understand this, but so long as you are in rebellion agaiinst the Teaching of the Church, this will probably not change.

Also, I didn’t say they weren’t sinful at all, I said that I don’t think they are mortally sinful. Nobody is accusing Jesus or scriptures or even the Church of lying.

Well, it is either one or the other. Either Jesus, speaking through the Scriptures and the Church are wrong, or you are.

There are many gray areas of ethics and morality, but there are some that are just black and white. Either fornication is a mortal sin, or it is not. If it is not, then Jesus is a liar.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

It seems like you are thinking of doctrinal “development” which is not “evolution”. “Evolve” indicates changes and the doctrine can never change. Our understanding of it, and how it applies can develop though. It is our perception of the doctrine that develops, not the doctrine itself.

Evolution implies a gradual perfection, not necessarily a complete change.

The Holy Spirit will not reveal a “truth” to an individual that is in opposition to what He has already revealed to the Church. We can benefit from His guidance infallibly in the Church so long as we are in unity with the teaching authority appointed by Christ.

This is how you see it, in black and white, like everything else.

 

[guanophore]

I know what the CCC says. My question is how SPECIFICALLY does one “hate” or “detest” the sin if it has nothing to do with emotions and if turning away from the sin and turning towards Got is not enough?

Hate and detestation of sin comes from a character conformed to the image and likeness of God. To achieve it, we must be conformed to Him through transformation. Although we are transformed by His grace, there are things we can do to help ourselves to grow in holiness. Obedience, participation in the sacramental life of the Church, and individual spiritual disciplines such as reading scripture and prayer. Little by little these pious practices infuse grace into us, transforming us to His way of looking at things.

I honestly don’t think that you can answer the question because it doesn’t make any sense.

The faithful have been asking and answering this question for 2000 years, T-one. Did you think your situation was something new or different?

I would also suggest the chastity material available on this website. These materials were not available to you at the time you entered into premarital sexual activity, but reading them now may help you see things from another point of view.

 

[guanophore]

Evolution implies a gradual perfection, not necessarily a complete change.

It is an inaccurate metaphor, because the revelation given to us by God was perfect at the beginning.

Evolution implies a gradual perfection, not necessarily a complete change.

But the HS might give a general Truth to the Church that applies in most circumstances and then reveal a certain more specific truth to an individual based on their personal circumstances. .

Yes, for example, the HS has given a general Truth to the Church that sex belongs in marriage only. He may reveal certain truths to a married couple to abstain from sex for a period of time so they can pray.

Rarely does something apply universally to each and every person and rarely is culpability exactly the same from one person to the next.

On the contrary, the commandments of God apply to everyone, everywhere, at all times.

I do agree, though that the degree of culpability may vary from person to person.

I can’t make something that WAS fun NOT fun just because I have become more spiritual and obedient to God and the Church…it doesn’t work like that.

I did not mean to imply that it does. You said you don’t see how you could detest your sins, and I agree. I don’t think it is possible for you to detest something that you believe was good, fun, and productive.

I also am not responsible for the fact that when I used to take drugs, I didn’t have a massive drug overdose or fail out of college or become an addict or that when I had pre-marital sex with my spouse, I didn’t get chlamydia or AIDS. The fact that there were no perceptible bad consequences is not my fault.

Did someone imply that it was?

Do you really believe that, just because you don’t perceive any bad consequences, none exist?

I had some fun, I married my boyfriend, we are very happy. My life didn’t implode as a result. I can’t change that, and I wouldn’t want to.

Exactly! So, what need is there to “detest” all this good fruit?
"guanophore:

There are many gray areas of ethics and morality, but there are some that are just black and white.

This is how you see it, in black and white, like everything else.

I think you are not reading very carefully, T-one. I dont’ see everything in black and white. On the contrary, to me, most are gray. The ten commandments are not.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

It is an inaccurate metaphor, because the revelation given to us by God was perfect at the beginning.

Evolution implies a gradual perfection, not necessarily a complete change.

Fornication is not in the 10 commandments, as much as some people would like to stretch it out to fall under adultery.

 

[Bookcat]

Fornication is not in the 10 commandments, as much as some people would like to stretch it out to fall under adultery.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

 

[guanophore]

Not necessarily, but if I can’t see them, it is difficult to abhor what I have done as much as I might want to.

Absolutely! Jesus said the people cannot 'see" the Kingdom of God unless they are born again. That means that being “in Christ” changes our perceptions, and enables us to see things differently that we did before we were sanctified.

For some people, this shift of perception is immediate. For some of us, it has taken decades for our minds and hearts to come into harmony with God’s point of view that is protected infallibly in the Church.

But, just as you are able to make an act of the will to detest your sins, you can also make an act of the will to accept the Apostolic Teaching that the Word of God is preserved infallibly in the Church. This will enable you to get on the journey of conforning your conscience to the way God sees things.

No need to detest the good fruit at all, but the problem for me comes with separating the sin from the goodness that God has brought out of it and simply hating the sin itself as something bad.

Yes, this will will develop over time as you have more clarity about what is sin, and the damage caused by sin. If you are daily in prayer that the HS will reveal this to you, then He will!

Fornication is not in the 10 commandments, as much as some people would like to stretch it out to fall under adultery.

It is not a “stretch”, but the proper understanding of the commandment. How do we know this? Because this instruction comes from Jesus through the Apostles and has been preserved infallibly by the HS in the Church.

This is one of the roots of the problem you are having. We cannot have an appropriate sorrow for our sins unless we know what sins are. The Church has been authorized and gifted by God to provide this instruction to us. Unless and until you are ready, willing, and able to receive this instruction, it is not likely that you will be able to “detest” your sins.

I don’t say this about you personally, but I am describing a spiritual condition that we all have.