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Cajetan
Guest
See, I would, but then I remembered that Catholic Christianity is the true religion.
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M
mschrank
Guest
Go ahead and pray, after all, if you’re right, I would want to become Jewish to please God.
I don’t see why then, if I pray for the conversion of Jews, the Jews could dislike that. I’m doing it out of love. If we didn’t, we’d say “God curse the Jews!” not “God convert the Jews”
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Cajetan
Guest
Listen, I don’t have a problem with the Jews or Israel, or you being Jewish or a Zionist. What I have a problem with is Catholic bishops and other authorities today ignoring the Magisterium of the Church when it comes to the Jews and Zionism – acting as if the Jews are “off-limits” to evangelism and that the founding of the secular political State of Israel is some act of Divine Providence. This is not consistent with the Catholic faith; it is coming from nowhere theological, but rather a sympathy for the Jews over the Holocaust and a spiritual kinship with the Jewish people because of our common Abrahamic/Mosaic heritage. Guess what? I also have an immense sympathy for the Jews over what happened to them during the Holocaust and feel a tremendous spiritual kinship with the Jewish people because of our common religious heritage. But this does not lead me to be a Zionist (which is a secular political movement, by the way) or ignore Christ’s command to make believers of all nations. Why should I?
D
Dauphin
Guest
If only such displays of common sense were common at the Vatican…
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Valke2
Guest
That is Satan messing with you.
V
Valke2
Guest
I’m just kidding and being a bit sensitive. My apologies.
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SemperFidelis
Guest
Well, that seems to be about the extent of the Jewish “dialogue” (read: complaining) with the Vatican recently…so if the shoe fits.
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Duke_of_Mantua
Guest
I am having some serious trouble and questions with the prayers said today, Good Friday. At one point, we are asked to pray for the jews who “were the first to hear the word of God and have remained faithful to his Covenant,” but then the next prayer asks me to pray for the faithless that they may convert and seek salvation.
Dude, where do I begin?! Faithful to his Covenant? Aren’t the jews faithless by their very rejection of Christ? Why two prayers? Why do we name the jews separately in one prayer and declare their faithfulness and then throw everyone else under a bus and pray for their conversion?
There’s a reason I don’t go to these NO Masses. I need a rock, like the one on which this Church was founded, not some ambivalent and politically correct collection of equivocal nonsense. This is one of the reasons I left the Church in the first place. How can I keep myself from falling if I don’t have a solid foundation on which I can lean when I am weak?
Wow, I was born in the wrong century apparently.
Dude, where do I begin?! Faithful to his Covenant? Aren’t the jews faithless by their very rejection of Christ? Why two prayers? Why do we name the jews separately in one prayer and declare their faithfulness and then throw everyone else under a bus and pray for their conversion?
There’s a reason I don’t go to these NO Masses. I need a rock, like the one on which this Church was founded, not some ambivalent and politically correct collection of equivocal nonsense. This is one of the reasons I left the Church in the first place. How can I keep myself from falling if I don’t have a solid foundation on which I can lean when I am weak?
Wow, I was born in the wrong century apparently.
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Cajetan
Guest
For what it’s worth, here was the prayer “for the Jewish people” at my N.O. Mass (Canadian liturgy) today:
*Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Pause) We pray to the Lord: [Lord, hear our prayer.]
Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.*
*Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Pause) We pray to the Lord: [Lord, hear our prayer.]
Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.*
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SemperFidelis
Guest
Going to a Traditional Latin Mass is really your only hope.
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blessed_wife
Guest
Well said!
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rien
Guest
The vatican surely sems to be moving in the direction of a dual covenant. The Pope’s elimination of this prayer are telling.
But that is a denial of Scripture.
So catholics will maybe conme to the point where Tradition supercedes Scripture? It sure looks like way when even a conservative Pope is moving the church there.
You needd to read history and all sources. maybe what you’ve beentold by the “new apologists” so to speak is not true?
If the jews are not to be prayed for in terms of conersion that is Tradition conflicting Scripture.
In that case IMO you need to go with Scripture. And maybe look elsewhere - like the Orthodox church. They have nothing to do with this kind of nonesense emanting from the Vaticvan during this Pope’s and the previous 3’s pontificates.
I’m sort of shocked at EWTN. Just got it here on the radio. Basically the line is you can be saved if you are a good Muslim or Chrtisian or whatever. But that you are really saved in all cases as a Catholic. Come on! Even Pawca is quite squishy on this. But he is a Jesuit so I guess no surprise. But EWTN
's father Riccardi is the greatest offender IMO.
You wonder why Muslims, Mormons and Pentecostals are converting so many Catholics? They are offering a solid, not squishy, truth.
But that is a denial of Scripture.
So catholics will maybe conme to the point where Tradition supercedes Scripture? It sure looks like way when even a conservative Pope is moving the church there.
You needd to read history and all sources. maybe what you’ve beentold by the “new apologists” so to speak is not true?
If the jews are not to be prayed for in terms of conersion that is Tradition conflicting Scripture.
In that case IMO you need to go with Scripture. And maybe look elsewhere - like the Orthodox church. They have nothing to do with this kind of nonesense emanting from the Vaticvan during this Pope’s and the previous 3’s pontificates.
I’m sort of shocked at EWTN. Just got it here on the radio. Basically the line is you can be saved if you are a good Muslim or Chrtisian or whatever. But that you are really saved in all cases as a Catholic. Come on! Even Pawca is quite squishy on this. But he is a Jesuit so I guess no surprise. But EWTN
's father Riccardi is the greatest offender IMO.
You wonder why Muslims, Mormons and Pentecostals are converting so many Catholics? They are offering a solid, not squishy, truth.
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CarolsDaughter
Guest
Judaism is the true religion ONLY FOR JEWS. Gentiles do not have to become Jews, if they follow the 7 laws of Niah they can be accepted by the Creator.
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CarolsDaughter
Guest
I am a deeply commited moderately observant Jew. I was raised an Orthodox Jew by a formerly Catholic woman who chose to become an Orthodox Jew during World War 2, then met and married my father (who was also Jewish.)
Although I have deeply studied many religions over my 48 yr life so far, I have never wanted to convert to another religion. For me, Judaism and the Torah answers all my spiritual questions, and I have a personal relationship with Hashem, the Jewish God.
Because of this, it does not at all bother me if Catholics (or anyone else) pray to their deity for my conversion or the conversion of other Jews, because (please don’t be offended), I know their prayers are not being heard because God wants Jews to keep Torah, not join a non-Jewish religion.
It is the NON-religious Jews who fear conversionary prayers, because they have no faith. When you HAVE faith, you fear nothing.
BTW I became interested in studying other religions for two reasons: half my family is Catholic (my mom was a convert to Judaism), and when I was 10, some Catholic girls in my neighborhood beat me up, saying, “YOU crucified Our Lord”. I determined never to be as ignorant of their religion (and religions of others) as they clearly were of mine.
Shabbat Shalom, to those of you here who are Jewish.
CarolsDaughter
R
rien
Guest
I want to affirm you in your faith. Little thing, after 2000 years there are around 30,000 versions of Christianity. After more than 6,000 years there are what, 5 or 6, versions of Judaims. Jesus’s great priestly prayer in John that they be one was not fulfilleed. Which IMO casts serious, fatal doubt on those who profess a New Covenant.I am a deeply commited moderately observant Jew. I was raised an Orthodox Jew by a formerly Catholic woman who chose to become an Orthodox Jew during World War 2, then met and married my father (who was also Jewish.)
Although I have deeply studied many religions over my 48 yr life so far, I have never wanted to convert to another religion. For me, Judaism and the Torah answers all my spiritual questions, and I have a personal relationship with Hashem, the Jewish God.
Because of this, it does not at all bother me if Catholics (or anyone else) pray to their deity for my conversion or the conversion of other Jews, because (please don’t be offended), I know their prayers are not being heard because God wants Jews to keep Torah, not join a non-Jewish religion.
It is the NON-religious Jews who fear conversionary prayers, because they have no faith. When you HAVE faith, you fear nothing.
BTW I became interested in studying other religions for two reasons: half my family is Catholic (my mom was a convert to Judaism), and when I was 10, some Catholic girls in my neighborhood beat me up, saying, “YOU crucified Our Lord”. I determined never to be as ignorant of their religion (and religions of others) as they clearly were of mine.
Shabbat Shalom, to those of you here who are Jewish.
CarolsDaughter
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Cajetan
Guest
I would not call this phenomenon an expression of Tradition; we need to be very careful here. It seems to be a break from Tradition. Which means that, sooner or later, it will be sorted out through Tradition. Things take time.
I don’t recall the popes making any infallible declarations on these matters.
P
PPIX
Guest
It is denial of nearly 2,000 years of Catholic Tradition and scriptures. New “Catholic” “tradition” that contradicts tradition that has stood for two millennia has origins in the enemy of God (Truth). In other words it is diabolical.
The current and previous popes have not been conservative, they were former liberals at the Council and have become “conservatives” with time. Those labeled arch-conservatives are the real traditionalists (Cardinal Biffi, Cardinal Spellman, Cardinal Siri).
Who the media calls “liberals” are, for the most part, heterodox in relation to the Catholic faith. Who the media calls moderates and conservatives are, for the most, part as liberal as they can get while still remaining orthodox.
We live in strange times.
A number of Catholics throughout the world are waking up to this.
I was thinking the same thing.
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Cajetan
Guest
Well, the world can thank a few sixteenth century heretics for this (before Luther, Calvin & Co. – over 1,500 years of glorious Christian civilization – there were but two “versions” of the faith which were, and are, extremely close: Catholicism and Orthodoxy.) In the end, though, people are free to do what they wish – to embrace divine revelation, reject it, or in the case of Protestants, bastardize it. While we certainly answer to God for our actions upon death, God does not control our personal behavior on this earth.
Also, I think the reason why there are only “five or six versions of Judaims” is fairly easy to give: Jews do not evangelize, and therefore, generally, the only Jews are born Jews. I don’t see many travelling the earth, hearts-ablaze for Judaism and spreading its word; the religion is kept “in the family,” so to speak. In a way, it’s a tight ship and a closed shop. This is not conducive to a lot of different denominations.
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CarolsDaughter
Guest
At one time Judaism was a proselytizing religion. The Christian testament even shows this, because there is a passage where Jesus rebukes the Parushim (Pharisees), saying, “You compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him two-fold the child of hell as yourself” (I have most of the Christian testament memorized due to my years of study and volunteer work in the ecumenical movement, but I doubt I can recall where that passage is, sorry!)
Despite the fact that for the past 2000 years at least, Judaism has not sought converts, each year about 10,000 people convert to Judaism worldwide. My mother was one such convert (in 1944); my husband was another (in 1983.) We believe in quality, not quantity, which is also why a rabbi is bound by Jewish Law to try to turn a potential convert away 3 times to test their sincerity.
And actually, according to traditional Jewish Halacha (Law), there is only ONE form of Judaism. That form is called by non-religious Jews and others, “Orthodox Judaism”. Everything else is regarded as heretical (just as protestantism would be regarded as heretical to Roman Catholicism.)
“Orthodox” Jews do not usually call themselves “Orthodox”. They usually just refer to themselves as Torah-observant Jews.
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stmaria
Guest
This idea that the conversion of the Jews and other non-christian religions is not longer necessary, in my opinion, comes from the Vatican II document Nostrae Aetate which praises non-christian religions and never calls for any need to convert.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
“Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths…. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it** teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, **or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination…… The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself”
Saying that in Christ men may find “fullness of religious life” falls way short of saying that only in Christ men can be saved. That is not a call for conversion to Christ. Holiness can only come from God. How there can be something"holy" in a false religion is beyond me.
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“Thus, in Hinduism men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible fruitfulness of myths… trusting flight toward God.”
Hinduism is a pantheistic (the world is god) as well as a polytheistic (many gods) religion. Hinduism recognizes many divinities, there are three of great importance — Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer. Hindus worship many animals as gods. Cows are the most sacred, but they also worship monkeys, snakes and other animals. How can Hindus make a “loving, trusting flight to God” when they worship false gods?
Continuing from the Declaration Nostra Aetate:
“Buddhism in its multiple forms acknowledges the radical insufficiency of this shifting world. It teaches a path by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, can either reach a state of absolute freedom or **attain supreme enlightenment by their own efforts or by higher assistance.”
Buddhism teaches nothing about God; all beings are essentially equal. They believe in metempsychosis (the rebirth of the soul at death into the body of either a human or an animal form — reincarnation) until he acquires perfection in nirvana.
How can Vatican II speak of “supreme enlightenment” in Buddhism? How can there be any enlightenment without knowledge of the true God and with the false belief of reincarnation?
Also from Nostra Aetate:
“Upon the Muslims, too, the church looks with esteem. They adore one God, living and enduring, merciful and all-powerful, Maker of heaven and earth and Speaker to men… Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.”
Vatican II praises the Muslims because “they revere Him (Jesus) as a prophet;” yet, Muslims deny His divinity which Jesus Christ openly declared and was demonstrated by His miracles (especially His Resurrection. If the Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet, how can they claim that He is not divine?
I can’t understand the refusal of Vatican II to call for the conversion of these false religions. And we still see this continue today.If the aim of inner-religious dialogue was to eventually ask for conversion I could understand, but it has been over 40 years and there is still no call for conversion.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
“Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths…. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it** teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, **or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination…… The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself”
Saying that in Christ men may find “fullness of religious life” falls way short of saying that only in Christ men can be saved. That is not a call for conversion to Christ. Holiness can only come from God. How there can be something"holy" in a false religion is beyond me.
.
“Thus, in Hinduism men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible fruitfulness of myths… trusting flight toward God.”
Hinduism is a pantheistic (the world is god) as well as a polytheistic (many gods) religion. Hinduism recognizes many divinities, there are three of great importance — Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer. Hindus worship many animals as gods. Cows are the most sacred, but they also worship monkeys, snakes and other animals. How can Hindus make a “loving, trusting flight to God” when they worship false gods?
Continuing from the Declaration Nostra Aetate:
“Buddhism in its multiple forms acknowledges the radical insufficiency of this shifting world. It teaches a path by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, can either reach a state of absolute freedom or **attain supreme enlightenment by their own efforts or by higher assistance.”
Buddhism teaches nothing about God; all beings are essentially equal. They believe in metempsychosis (the rebirth of the soul at death into the body of either a human or an animal form — reincarnation) until he acquires perfection in nirvana.
How can Vatican II speak of “supreme enlightenment” in Buddhism? How can there be any enlightenment without knowledge of the true God and with the false belief of reincarnation?
Also from Nostra Aetate:
“Upon the Muslims, too, the church looks with esteem. They adore one God, living and enduring, merciful and all-powerful, Maker of heaven and earth and Speaker to men… Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.”
Vatican II praises the Muslims because “they revere Him (Jesus) as a prophet;” yet, Muslims deny His divinity which Jesus Christ openly declared and was demonstrated by His miracles (especially His Resurrection. If the Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet, how can they claim that He is not divine?
I can’t understand the refusal of Vatican II to call for the conversion of these false religions. And we still see this continue today.If the aim of inner-religious dialogue was to eventually ask for conversion I could understand, but it has been over 40 years and there is still no call for conversion.
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