No creator, world always was

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I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
 
That law only holds true until you get to atomic stuff. Nuclear explosions can turn mass into energy if I remember right.
 
If God exists, then obviously He created the Laws of Conservation. The Creator is not subject to His creation.

The problem with mass existing forever is that nasty old gravity. The universe would have been nothing but a black hole forever.
 
Everything gradually descends to entropy. If the Earth has existed forever, that means it’s already gone the way of all matter: to entropic dissolution.

So, I guess, that means no one could have typed this reply, and you certainly can’t be reading it.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
That law only holds true until you get to atomic stuff. Nuclear explosions can turn mass into energy if I remember right.
That’s because Mass and Energy are more or less the same thing–that’s what was so groundbreaking about Einstein’s E=w+mc^2.
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
This does not take into account where the mass came from in the first place. There must have been a time when mass did not exist because everything has to come from something, so mass coming out of nothing would be impossible. This also implies a Someone who created the first mass (according to St. Thomas Aquinas’ first cause principle).
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
The steady state theory of the universe has been thoroughly discredited. Both faith and reason show us that the universe had a start.

Unless the person who told you this is taking the view that since time started when the universe started there was technically no “before” so the universe has always been here as long as there’s been a universe.
That really has nothing to do with the principals of conservation.

Mass is changed to energy every day…that’s why the sun shines 😉
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
Montie,

Try running this by whomever you heard this from and check out their response:

The mind’s capacity for meaning and value is realized to be exhausted or exhaustible by nothing that is limited, and therefore only by the unlimited. Thus by experience of the finite our minds inevitably become aware of the fact that visible or limited entities cannot be the total object of which human reason is consciously capable. No degree of the finite realizes the fullness of meaning of which the human understanding is capable. Though indeed we have no positive idea of, or adequate desire for, the infinite, we are clearly aware of the insufficiency of everything other than the infinite.

The verdict of our whole nature is that the finite is not the All of meaning or being. The partial cannot be the whole. We do not directly see the intrinsic possibility of the infinite, but we do directly see the impossibility that limited beings should constitute the whole of existence or exhaust the meaning of reality. This brings us clear knowledge that the meaning of being implies the real existence of the Infinite. It is precisely because we realize that things and persons are limited that we are unable to suppose that being as such must be restricted solely to them. They cannot embody the whole possibility of being, or comprise a sufficient reason even of their own finite existence. The inadequacy of the finite thus indicates that complete or perfect reality and meaning exist in the Infinite alone, constituting the sufficient reason of the infinite itself as well as of the finite.

Infinite being is therefore superior to the limitations of material volume and of discursive reason. Infinity is spiritual greatness of a unique and superlative order. Our mental imagery and our relative concepts of spatial extension are therefore incapable of representing it.

God’s Omnipresence or spiritual immensity is thus entirely different from the mode of “presence” whereby finite objects “occupy” a defined place and sustain a relative position in regard to each other. The Infinite is “present” according to its subsistent mode of being. All that is related to the infinite is related to the whole of infinity, for no partial relation is possible in regard to that which is indivisible. To be restricted to any spatial position is itself a limitation. The human mind, though finite, is in some respects superior to material or spatial restrictions, and Infinite Spirit transcends them all. It is by uniting the idea of spiritual life with the negation of of all limitations that we can attain the most adequate mental “analogue” of the positive infinity of supreme being. The phrase “infinite matter” would be self-contradictory, for matter is essentially finite. Subsistent Mind can alone be consistently thought of as Infinity, as the philosophies of the East and West abundantly illustrate.
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
Hello MC, I started a thread on this very topic a while back.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=128868

Basically the argument is that if the world had always existed and you accept the laws of conservation as being true, then the universe as we see it today could not exist. It would have reached a state of maximum entrophy over an infinite time span. So we can conclude that the universe began at a point in time. The scientists don’t know however what happend before the big bang and say that the laws of physics break down!

God bless,
Noel.
 
BTW, this is another example of the common strategy of applying attributes of God (in this case, eternal existence) to the material universe, in order to argue against God. It boils down to making the universe a puny God to get rid of the real God. Somehow it’s always OK for the universe to have God-like attributes; it’s just not OK for God to have God-like attributes. Not very coherent, IMHO.
 
For reference:

The First Law of Thermodynamics states energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that “in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state.” This is also commonly referred to as entropy.
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
First, I’ve heard this argument before. You might say it is an atheist’s blind faith statement. If they hold this to be their truth then there is no way God can creep into the scenario. No legitimate scientist would ever back this thinking. Atheists who think this way obviously haven’t read Dawkins or agreed with him.

There is no way to convince anyone of something they don’t want to hear. You may think you are arguing with the atheistic version of a young earth creationist which isn’t too far from the truth. YEC believe in the literal creation in the Bible. These atheists believe in everything is just as it was billions of years ago. The best approach is to counter with science and belief remembering always to keep God transcendent of the whole thing. Too often our arguments lead us to put God within the universe. It is detrimental to any argument to place God outside. It’s not that God isn’t among us. It is that God is not contained by the laws He set in motion. If God is incapable of anything it is that He is incapable of creating anything greater than Himself. By His very nature He must be greater than Creation and that includes the universe we know.From this standpoint you can argue that God is not subject to the laws He set forth in motion. Most likely you won’t convince whoever it is but also they won’t be able to argue you intelligently either. They’re holding on to a misinterpretation of a theory.
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
The Kalam Argument
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
Hello Montie,

The law of Conservation certianly proves that God did not create matter, energy and empty space 14 billion years ago at the time of the “Big Bang”.

I do not know why science seeks to disprove creation by looking for a place in physical time where matter, energy and space did not exist.

God exists outside of physical time. God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time from infinite past to infinite future. Infinite past and infinite future, in the form of a rate of change for changing matter, energy and empty space, flows out into infinite past and infinite future from God’s focus point of free-willed love for God capable Adam. Creation of infinite past and infinite future changes between matter, energy and empty space came into existance thousands of years ago, or tens of thousands of years ago, at the command of our all Powerful God who creates physical time from His prospective of existance outside of physical time.
 
Mass can never be added to or taken away.
Mass is constant. But it can change due to gravitational effects and the effect of heat.

The Big Bang theory is now accepted as FACT. The back ground radiation from the Big Bang has been found. Prior to the Big Bang the universe was approximately the size of a proton. How could all that mass get into such small space, since that was all the space there was :rolleyes:
 
If you leave a bicycle out in a field for years it deteriorates. If you abandon a house it rots. Can you name anything that is left to itself and it becomes something better or more beautiful? When you look at the planet Earth you are thinking in the opposite if you go with the eternal universe theory. You would have to believe that matter left on its own became the beautiful creations that we see all around us. Using laws of nature refute this theory since, like I said, the normal tendency is for deterioration. Just my:twocents: God Bless…🙂
 
I heard a new objection to God as creator. That God couldn’t have created the world because there is the Law of Conservation. Mass can never be added to or taken away. So therefore the world and everything has already existed for eternity. What would be a proper response to this? Thanks and God bless.
For me the best reply would be: Before the Law of Conservation, there is God. “God said, let there be…” that’s the moment all physical laws came to existence, including conservation laws.

Physically, quantum mechanics allows the creation of energy from nothingness (vacuum) as long as it exists over a brief period of time so as to be consistent with the uncertainty principle.

In the end, principles, laws and theorems are all part of God’s manifestation of glory as we say during Mass: “Heaven and Earth are full of your Glory, hosannah in the highest!” Indeed, the existence of the laws of nature are pretty much an un-spelled ASSUMPTION for Science.
 
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