No Crosses on Mormon Temples...

[majick275]

Just to be accurate here is the “official” LDS position from their current “scriptures”:

D&C129
*1 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.
*

 

[pro_universal]

Here’s a good thought experiment on this topic:

Take a synopsis of Mormon theology, and change ALL the biblical names like Moses, Michael, and Lord Jesus to names like:

Moses=Xenubob
Michael=Chewbaka
Lord Jesus=Luke Skywalker.

Now, does this synopsis read like a literary piece based on the bible, or does it read more like really bad 19th century science fiction, the product of a culture separate from and far removed from the Jews of the 1st century?

This is why it’s so hard to have a discussion with Mormons about symbols and theology. They do not practice a religion that is even remotely or recognizably Christian. They have borrowed a few names from Christian theology and scripts, and they use a language (english) that is used by one relatively small group of christians, but that’s where the similarity ends. In all honesty, mormon thinking is about as related to christian thinking as is scientology.

I just wish they’d stop misrepresenting themselves as christian to folks with limited theological education or understanding. It’s religious fraud.

 

[amgid]

Chris-WA:

That’s a silly comparison because the result of a loved one being murdered does not bring about salvation for the whole world–Christ’s death on the cross, however, did open heaven up for all. . . .

Matthew 9:

16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
The symbol of the cross was appropriate for the former dispensation. This is a new dispensation of the gospel. It is the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times; and it has its own signs and symbols. We worship the living Christ, not the dying Christ. We celebrate His resurrection and life, rather than mourn over His death. We have a stronger testimony that He now lives than any other people can have, because we are witnesses to His restoring His Church on earth by revelation in our time. Therefore we rejoice in, and want to celebrate, and disseminate the good news of His life and resurrection, and the restoration of His Church in our time, than mourn over His death in a former time. We have the new wine, we keep it in new bottles; you have the old wine, you should keep it in old bottles; and both are preserved.

donbjc:

I like IAMLDS’s response and explanation. That pretty much explains why an object of torture and death can turn into an object of divinity and hope.

I believe that the resurrection of Jesus Christ turns the cruicifix into a symbol of triumph over death and a symbol of the resurrection and man’s deliverance from spiritual death, by Christ’s atonement for the sins of the world.

I am not copying any words from any book, I am just saying how I feel. Am I wrong? I am learning a lot from this forum and the discussions here.

No, you are not wrong!
Mom of 5:

Unless I missed it, i did not see an explaination of why The Angel Moroni adorns the Mormon Temples. I think this is really more relevant than why not a cross.

John the Revelator saw “another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth” (Revelation 14:6). We believe this refers to the angel Moroni who delivered the Book of Mormon plates to Joseph Smith, which contains the “fullness of the everlasting gospel” to be preached to all the nations of the earth. The statute of the angel Moroni on our temples symbolizes the restoration of the gospel on earth through angelic ministration in the latter days.

donbjc:

I asked my wife that one, and she said it is because Moroni is the one who delivered the Golden Plates with the history of his people on them to Joseph Smith, and thus started the restoration of the gospel in it’s original form upon the earth. So they show him trumpeting the good news from the top of the temple.

That is right!

donbjc:

OK now my wife says that spirits are not resurrected and reunited with their bodies until after the second coming, so now they are all spirits until then…There is a judgement day and resurrection before anyone goes further in progression.

Actually, that is not strictly accurate. The angel Moroni appeared to Joseph smith as a resurrected being.

Chris-WA:

Angels are not the same beings in Mormonism and Catholicism. In Catholicism, angels are a separate race of beings altogether. They are not humans, nor are they resurrected men. In Mormonism, angels are resurrected men.

And of course, the Mormon belief is the correct one! The mighty angel that appeared to John the Revelator and showed him the marvelous vision recorded in the book of Revelation, later told him that he was “of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book”:

Revelation 22:

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Furthermore, Matthew 27 records that after the resurrection of Jesus, many saints which had previously died were resurrected, and acted in the capacity of ministering servants (which is what “angel” means). They “appeared unto many,”—i.e. they ministered to them.

amgid

 

[pro_universal]

. We worship the living Christ, not the dying Christ. We celebrate His resurrection and life, rather than mourn over His death. We have a stronger testimony that He now lives than any other people can have, because we are witnesses to His restoring His Church on earth by revelation in our time.

Yeah, and if Mormons invested in NASA telescope projects, maybe you could all take a photo of Jesus way out there on the planet Kolob with his 50 wives, right?

Seriously…I respect different beliefs, but it’s simply untrue to call this religion christian.

 

[majick275]

amgid:

Matthew 9:

16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

out of context and thus irelevant. You still didn’t address the other plethora of scriptures nor their context.

amgid:

The symbol of the cross was appropriate for the former dispensation. This is a new dispensation of the gospel. It is the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times; and it has its own signs and symbols. We worship the living Christ, not the dying Christ. We celebrate His resurrection and life, rather than mourn over His death. We have a stronger testimony that He now lives than any other people can have, because we are witnesses to His restoring His Church on earth by revelation in our time. Therefore we rejoice in, and want to celebrate, and disseminate the good news of His life and resurrection, and the restoration of His Church in our time, than mourn over His death in a former time. We have the new wine, we keep it in new bottles; you have the old wine, you should keep it in old bottles; and both are preserved.

and in doing that you devalue Christ sacrifice and overlook the very symbol of his resurection. We don’t mourn his death, we thank him for it and give him praise and worship. I like our testimony of him living because his church didn’t die. WE didn’t need Joseph Smith Jr. to save us we only need Christ. You place more emphasis on the “restoration” than that which was restored. I think it obvious that it isn’t a restoration since first of all there was no apostasy and secondly all of it’s unique doctrines and practices are new innovations that bear little if any resemblance to the original Christian church. Even the BoM has no mention of most unique LDS doctrines and practices. I think Joseph Smith Jr. drank too much of the new wine and made it up.

amgid:

No, you are not wrong!

Not about the cross being a symbol of victory and hope.

 

[majick275]

(continued)

amgid:

John the Revelator saw “another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth” (Revelation 14:6). We believe this refers to the angel Moroni who delivered the Book of Mormon plates to Joseph Smith, which contains the “fullness of the everlasting gospel” to be preached to all the nations of the earth. The statute of the angel Moroni on our temples symbolizes the restoration of the gospel on earth through angelic ministration in the latter days.

No one else does. You might want to actually look at the historical context in which that book was wriiten. The value of sacred tradition is immense here in helping us to understand what was really meant. If the BoM had the “fullness of the Gospel” why doesn’t it teach so many of the LDS doctrines and practices. Where does it teach Aaronic and Melchisadec priesthood, first presidency, apostles and bishops and stake high councils? where are the eternal marriages and the Temple endowments in it? The LDS church in practice is based on the D&C not the Bible OR the BoM. Elevating Moroni in place of Jesus on the Temples once again shows that the “restoration” is more highly valued than Christ sacrifice for us. No Jesus (even the Living Jesus) but Moroni is there.

amgid:

That is right!

See above!

amgid:

Actually, that is not strictly accurate. The angel Moroni appeared to Joseph smith as a resurrected being.

Another inconsistency in Mormon scriptures regarding the resurrection. Just how many are there? Lot’s of LDS get sealed to arise in the first resurection but how can it be “first” if all these angels are already resurected?

amgid:

And of course, the Mormon belief is the correct one! The mighty angel that appeared to John the Revelator and showed him the marvelous vision recorded in the book of Revelation, later told him that he was “of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book”:

Revelation 22:

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Furthermore, Matthew 27 records that after the resurrection of Jesus, many saints which had previously died were resurrected, and acted in the capacity of ministering servants (which is what “angel” means). They “appeared unto many,”—i.e. they ministered to them.

amgid

That is NOT what angel means. please consult a linguistic scholar on that. Once again you misunderstand John’s apocalypse because you refuse to acknowledge the historical context it was written in. Moroni is NOT in the Bible and even in the BoM is a minor character. He didn’t do much beyond hiding the abridged plates and showing them the Joseph Smith Jr. The Mormon belief is NOT the correct one. It is obviously based on the fraudulent writings of a womanizing con man who practiced folk magic.

 

[majick275]

The original Hebrew word used for angel in the Bible:

*Hebrew mal’ak, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy;
a messenger; specially of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):

• ambassador, angel, king or messenger.*

(understanding that different orders of angels are mentioned in the Bible but this is the most “generic” term)

Now as to the actual word “angel” it comes from the Greek “angelos” which means “messenger”.

 

[gilliam]

Mom of 5:

As christians we believe that Christ’s dying on the cross he saved us. Mormons believe that Jesus in His agony in the Garden of Gethsemine was where/when He saved us. The cross has no real meaning to LDS because the cross/ “tree” was the way of executing inmates in the day of Jesus, nothing really “special” about Christs dying on the cross.

Love and peace,

Mom of 5

Yes, you will see a lot of pictures of Christ in the garden inside Mormon buildings, but you won’t see crosses.

 

[Chris-WA]

majick275:

Just to be accurate here is the “official” LDS position from their current “scriptures”:

D&C129
1 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
**
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

O.K. I’ve never read this one before and it is just plain weird. Maybe I need to read it in context, but it kind of gives me the creeps. “Ask him to shake hands…” What kind of nonsense is that?

 

[donbjc]

That would weird me out so much, I would forget what to ask and what to remember it was I was supposed to find out. Geez! I think I’ll pass on that one.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

The original Hebrew word used for angel in the Bible:

*Hebrew mal’ak, mal-awk’; from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy;
a messenger; specially of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):

• ambassador, angel, king or messenger.*

(understanding that different orders of angels are mentioned in the Bible but this is the most “generic” term)

Now as to the actual word “angel” it comes from the Greek “angelos” which means “messenger”.

Exactly! Messenger=ministering servant. It is the same thing. Do not God “messengers” (His “angels”) also “minister” to mankind at God’s command, and do they not “serve” Him in doing so? Therefore God’s angels/messengers are also Him ministering servants.

Little did you know when you quoted that definition, that you were giving 100% support to my interpretations, not yours. As that definition teaches, “prophets” are also indeed God’s “angels,” His “messengers” or “ministering servants”. They are so while they are here on earth, and even more so when they die and go to heaven, where they are perfected and their powers are greatly enhanced, as the “angel” that appeared to John the Revelator clearly demonstrated.

The Bible informs us that even the devil has his “angels”:

Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Where did they come from? Did he create them himself? Obviously not. They are those spirits that followed him at the time that he rebelled against God in the pre-existence; therefore they became his “messengers” or “ministering servants”. They are his “angels”. Furthermore, Matthew 25:41, quoted above, informs us that those of mankind that sin and are damned, are sent to hell where they share the same fate with them. In other words, they become angels to the devil. They become his “messengers” or “ministering servants”. And by the same token, those who go to heaven become God’s servants. They become God’s angels. That is what the scriptures mean.

I have noticed nowadays you are replying to my posts aimlessly and haphazardly, just for the same of replying, without putting much thought into it. You seem to think that any reply is better than nothing! But it works against you. Most of what you have said in reply to my latest post in this thread are aimless and haphazard, and don’t mean a lot, and that is why I won’t be replying to them. You have done my work for me already. Nobody is going to be impressed by what you have posted.

amgid

 

[amgid]

That would weird me out so much, I would forget what to ask and what to remember it was I was supposed to find out. Geez! I think I’ll pass on that one.

Never say or do anything against your own better judgment Don, the consequences of that can be more serious than you think. And never speak flippantly of sacred things; for “every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36). Just because most of the people here speak evil of that which is good, that is no excuse for you. Don’t follow the crowd. Stick close to your own good principles, and have the courage of your convictions, and the Lord will give you power to prevail.

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

Exactly! Messenger=ministering servant. It is the same thing. Do not God “messengers” (His “angels”) also “minister” to mankind at God’s command, and do they not “serve” Him in doing so? Therefore God’s angels/messengers are also Him ministering servants.

Little did you know when you quoted that definition, that you were giving 100% support to my interpretations, not yours. As that definition teaches, “prophets” are also indeed God’s “angels,” His “messengers” or “ministering servants”. They are so while they are here on earth, and even more so when they die and go to heaven, where they are perfected and their powers are greatly enhanced, as the “angel” that appeared to John the Revelator clearly demonstrated.

The Bible informs us that even the devil has his “angels”:

Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Where did they come from? Did he create them himself? Obviously not. They are those spirits that followed him at the time that he rebelled against God in the pre-existence; therefore they became his “messengers” or “ministering servants”. They are his “angels”. Furthermore, Matthew 25:41, quoted above, informs us that those of mankind that sin and are damned, are sent to hell where they share the same fate with them. In other words, they become angels to the devil. They become his “messengers” or “ministering servants”. And by the same token, those who go to heaven become God’s servants. They become God’s angels. That is what the scriptures mean.

I have noticed nowadays you are replying to my posts aimlessly and haphazardly, just for the same of replying, without putting much thought into it. You seem to think that any reply is better than nothing! But it works against you. Most of what you have said in reply to my latest post in this thread are aimless and haphazard, and don’t mean a lot, and that is why I won’t be replying to them. You have done my work for me already. Nobody is going to be impressed by what you have posted.

amgid

messenger = ministering servant? now that’s aimless and haphazard. I could say Mormon=satanic, it’s the same thing. NOT! Your definitions are obviousl;y incorrect. How can you possibly say that God didn’t create angels? whatever. No one is buying the folk magic.

 

[majick275]

amgid:

Never say or do anything against your own better judgment Don, the consequences of that can be more serious than you think. And never speak flippantly of sacred things; for “every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36). Just because most of the people here speak evil of that which is good, that is no excuse for you. Don’t follow the crowd. Stick close to your own good principles, and have the courage of your convictions, and the Lord will give you power to prevail.

amgid

Now if only Joseph Smith Jr. had followed that advice. Mormon doctrine is not good and there practices have at times been downright evil. Stay away from the teachings of their false prophets.

 

[donbjc]

Majick275
Actually, I thought your meaning that Angel meant messenger was exactly what amgid said it meant. You just said it in a little different way. And from my own common sense, which may or may not be good sense. It seems that God would not have created angels, they would have been born as we are born and then when they died they would minister to us as angels or saints, and the ones who follow satan would go to his kingdom or hell. Kind of like our saints, and I wold think our saints are angels now ministering to us, just a matter of wording. I’m sorry, but I use more of my feelings, than scripture in things. I am not a student of scipture as you both are.
Let’s see Crosses on Mormon Temples, are we off subject here discussing Angels?

 

[majick275]

Well it just goes to show that different people can look at the same thing and see different meaning. I see angels as created beings because I see everything/one as created by God. semantically not all servants are messengers nor are all messengers servants. Also not all meesengers minister nor do all ministers message. In any case you are right, angels are way off topic and should get a differnt thread. Back to crosses…

 

[Mom_of_5]

Angels were discussed because they are the decoartion on top of the Temple rather than the cross. It seemed appropriate to understand why the Angel Moroni has such importance over the christian cross which you will not find anywhere in the LDS religion, and in addition, how did a man, Moroni, become an angel? It would follow that Moroni holds a higher place in LDS religion than Jesus because Moroni delivered the plates to Joseph Smith whom, according to Joseph Smith, God put in charge of his new, true church on earth (and in the spirit world. That is why the subject at hand also discusses angels.

Love and peace

Mom of 5

 

[amgid]

Mom of 5:

Angels were discussed because they are the decoartion on top of the Temple rather than the cross. It seemed appropriate to understand why the Angel Moroni has such importance over the christian cross which you will not find anywhere in the LDS religion, . . .

I wouldn’t say that “the angel Moroni has importance over the Christian cross”. That is not how we look at it. It is just that the statute symbolizes for us the restoration of the gospel on earth after the long night of Apostasy, which is the message we want to convey to the world.

. . . and in addition, how did a man, Moroni, become an angel?

I thought that has already been explained in this thread. In LDS theology, all righteous men, saints, and prophets of God when they die go to heaven, where they become angels of God, His chosen messengers and ministering servants, ready to act on His behalf according as He commands them; just as the angel that appeared to John the Revelator (as explained in the above posts) did. Was that difficult to understand?

It would follow that Moroni holds a higher place in LDS religion than Jesus because Moroni delivered the plates to Joseph Smith . . .

How does that “follow”? Moroni was an angel of God delivering the plates to Joseph Smith at the commandment of God. How does that make Moroni more important than God?

. . . whom, according to Joseph Smith, God put in charge of his new, true church on earth (and in the spirit world.

God put whom in charge of His new Church on earth? What are you talking about?

That is why the subject at hand also discusses angels.

At least you have said something that makes a bit of sense. That is good news!

amgid

 

[Mike_D30]

Mormons don’t use the sign of the Cross, the universal sign of Christianity, because they don’t believe Jesus attoned for man on the cross, but in gethesame, and they aren’t Christians, and let’s just leave it at that…

To me using all the other symbols LONG after they’re known to be occultic is suspect too. But this is just beating a dead horse.

 

[amgid]

Mike_D30:

Mormons don’t use the sign of the Cross, the universal sign of Christianity, because they don’t believe Jesus attoned for man on the cross, but in gethesame, . . .

Not true. LDS doctrine teaches that He suffered for the sins of the world both in Gethsemane as well as on the cross:

1 Nephi 11:

33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

Jacob 1:

8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi.

3 Nephi 27:

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil

D&C 56:

2 And he that will not take up his cross and follow me, and keep my commandments, the same shall not be saved.

D&C 138:

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

Moses 7:

55 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men

56 And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory;

. . . and they aren’t Christians, and let’s just leave it at that…

As a deliberate provocation and a shock tactic, that has outlived its usefulness.

To me using all the other symbols LONG after they’re known to be occultic is suspect too.

That has already been answered adequately by others in this thread. Nothing further need be said

But this is just beating a dead horse.

I agree. Your horse!

amgid