No Denominations?

[Publisher]

That’s a first i never heard the prophet Isaias refered to as mythical 7:14

And you still didn’t…I never refered to Isaiah as a “mythical” character.

“A young woman shall concieve and bear a son…call him Immanuel”…was historically in reference to Cyrus…the LXX version which rendered “young woman” as “virgin” was used by the writer of “Matthew” to recast the saviour of Israel…originally Cyrus…as the new messiah…and perpetuate one version of the “virgin birth” narrative…the other version is found in “Luke”…both versions are mutually exclusive of one another.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

No…it would be a literary device used by those who wrote Matthew and Luke to distinguish Jesus of Nazareth using mythology of the time and culture.

Then if it is mythical, it is not worth placing my faith in and I am still in my sins. Good news, indeed!

 

[Publisher]

Then if it is mythical, it is not worth placing my faith in and I am still in my sins. Good news, indeed!

Only if you deny that myth holds deep Truth within its framework and cannot be understood apart from it’s “story”…I do not. I do not place my faith in the “myth”…but in the One whom the myth seeks to make known.

 

[Stephen168]

Even the works of Thomas Aquinas are, by his own reckoning, ‘so much straw’.

Everything that I have written seems like straw to me compared to those things that I have seen and have been revealed to me.

 

[grandfather]

Brandon,

Old heresies never die. They just get recycled.

One of the earliest heresies in the early days of Christianity was syncretism. It was an attempt to reconcile all religious beliefs as acceptable, true.

We heard this in the last decades in the idea that all religions are different paths to the same place. In other words it does not matter what you believe about reality. Your beliefs will have no impact on your destiny.

Relativism is similar. Whatever works for you. Whatever seems right.

Reality says your faith is a path. The things that you believe shape your life and destinty. Contradicting doctrines that are opposed one to the other lead to different outcomes.

If something seems right that does not make it right. If you believe in something false, a lie, it will harm you, and there are definite false religous teachings going around.

I recommend you look into syncretism. It is impossible to reconcile contracting beliefs and make differences go away simply because you don’t like them.

 

[CopticChristian]

There’s a concept I’ve been thinking about, called post-denominational Christianity. First, some definitions:

Denominational Christianity: Here I mean any Christian communion that has a history, a creed and a defining character (it is in some way exclusive). Even groups that may not be denominations under the standard definition, such as Orthodox or Catholics, qualify as part of denominational Christianity under this definition.

Non-denominational Christianity: This was an effort to break away from any denominations and to found a Christian community that did not have any defining character or creed. Very quickly it developed a character and creed. After a couple decades, it also developed a unique history, and therefore itself became a denomination.

Post-denominational Christianity: This is a meta-group within Christianity. Different denominational Christians can be post-denominational. Post-denominational Christianity will not become a denomination, because it will be open to all denominational forms of Christianity, and indeed all groups that identify as Christian. **Any worship or doctrinal choice will be a matter of taste, or even a matter of believing that one form of worship or element of doctrine is true or right, while remaining open to the possibility of being wrong. **To keep from having a centralised character, post- denominational Christians will worship within multiple denominations; it may be helpful for its diversity that post-denominational Christians attend a different denomination each time they move, or that they go to multiple different churches on Sunday or through the week. The only denominational element post-denominational Christianity will come to have is a historical character.

**
I am a post-denominational Christian. I worship during the week with a group at my university (non-denominational), p ray the morning prayer at a Scottish Episcopalian Church, and attend contemporary Presbyterian worship on Sundays (while twice a month going to Catholic Mass on Saturday evening). I have made meaningful connections within these communities, and am starting to build bridges.**

What do you think of this sort of movement? Does anyone here identify with post-denominational Christianity? What problems do you see with it? What would you think about a post-denominational Christian attending Mass?

A more provocative question… what do you think about opening communion to post-denominational Christians?

So here you are trying to do unite everybody and that is to be praised, however consider this…

Reformed Calvinists think they are right and everyone else is damned. PedoBaptists believe that Baptism is the means of entry to the Church and CredoBaptists do not. The Orthodox think that everyone else is wrong and the Roman Catholics think that the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox are just siblings arguing. Lutherans are confessional at least some are and disagree with those that are not. Dispensationalists believe that the church age is bringing in the imminent return of Jesus and everyone else thinks that they are whacko. The Evangelical free thinkers accept dispensationalism however don’t make a big thing about it focusing more on a relationship with Christ that no one can agree on is Biblical. Are you going to consider the Jehovah Witness, Mormons and Oneness Pentacostals and Scientologists in your group? With this in mind who is going to lead these services and how does one agree as to how one joins? There has to be some sort of organization.

You worship with the denomination of non…a Protestant group that does not know that they are Protestant, an Episcopalian group that has a liturgical base and sacramental system, Presbyterians that consider anyone that is not Reformed not the elect or damned, and a Catholic Mass, the Church from which all others sprang. Sounds like an interesting journey.

 

[stewstew03]

So here you are trying to do unite everybody and that is to be praised, however consider this…

Reformed Calvinists think they are right and everyone else is damned. PedoBaptists believe that Baptism is the means of entry to the Church and CredoBaptists do not. The Orthodox think that everyone else is wrong and the Roman Catholics think that the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox are just siblings arguing. Lutherans are confessional at least some are and disagree with those that are not. Dispensationalists believe that the church age is bringing in the imminent return of Jesus and everyone else thinks that they are whacko. The Evangelical free thinkers accept dispensationalism however don’t make a big thing about it focusing more on a relationship with Christ that no one can agree on is Biblical. Are you going to consider the Jehovah Witness, Mormons and Oneness Pentacostals and Scientologists in your group? With this in mind who is going to lead these services and how does one agree as to how one joins? There has to be some sort of organization.

You worship with the denomination of non…a Protestant group that does not know that they are Protestant, an Episcopalian group that has a liturgical base and sacramental system, Presbyterians that consider anyone that is not Reformed not the elect or damned, and a Catholic Mass, the Church from which all others sprang. Sounds like an interesting journey.

:clapping:

 

[asd72]

I probably would have agreed with you a couple of years back Brandon. I attended a Baptist Church because I had no clue where I belonged denomination-wise and it was close by. I was quite into the Mennonites and Hebrew Christianity teaching too, so I would have felt comfortable anywhere.

When I discovered Catholism though I realized that Jesus didn’t leave us confused, he left us a Church who have passed down the Apostolic teaching and when I realized this it wasn’t just a choice, but a matter of obedience for me to join this Church.

That being said I have non-Catholic Christian friends and we are united in our belief in Jesus, and even with my Muslim friends we are united with our belief in God. They would be welcome at the Catholic Church, just not at holy communion.

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

Old heresies never die. They just get recycled.

I don’t mind if my ideas are old. This may be encouraging, even. If something is entirely original, then it is untethered to the past, and for religious ideas, this may be untenable. Ideally, there should be some sort of organic development through history, even if this development is more like watching lions eat gazelles than watching a plant grow.

One of the earliest heresies in the early days of Christianity was syncretism. It was an attempt to reconcile all religious beliefs as acceptable, true.

This is related somewhat to post-denominationalism, but misses some of the important points. For example, I think there are many wrong ideas in the Church, and that my own views are true and other people’s are false. I would change your quote to say:

One of the earliest heresies in the early days of Christianity was X. It was an attempt to treat all religious beliefs as uncertain.

Your beliefs will have no impact on your destiny.

This is something I believe. I think that God eventually saves everyone regardless of his or her individual beliefs. But in this belief, I may be wrong. If I find good evidence to suspect that I am wrong, then I will adjust this belief. The new belief will also be uncertain.

It is impossible to reconcile contracting beliefs and make differences go away simply because you don’t like them.

I agree!

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

So here you are trying to do unite everybody and that is to be praised

Thank you.

Reformed Calvinists think they are right and everyone else is damned. PedoBaptists believe that Baptism is the means of entry to the Church and CredoBaptists do not. The Orthodox think that everyone else is wrong and the Roman Catholics think that the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox are just siblings arguing. Lutherans are confessional at least some are and disagree with those that are not. Dispensationalists believe that the church age is bringing in the imminent return of Jesus and everyone else thinks that they are whacko. The Evangelical free thinkers accept dispensationalism however don’t make a big thing about it focusing more on a relationship with Christ that no one can agree on is Biblical.

I am considering this, seriously. I don’t have a good answer yet. There are many exclusive groups out there, which would not welcome me, and some which would not welcome any post-denominationalist at all. This is one of the three serious problems I see with this idea, after discussing it here. I am still hopeful to resolve these problems, but a good resolution will take time to find (if it can be found at all!).

The most serious aspect of this is conversion. Many of these groups would try to convert me. How can I be even nominally a part of a group that is constantly trying to convert me? Something to think about.

The other two problems are the risk of transience in the group and the challenge of defining what Christianity is, though I see these as relatively trivial to resolve.

Are you going to consider the Jehovah Witness, Mormons and Oneness Pentacostals and Scientologists in your group?

JW’s, LDS’s and Oneness? Definitely!

Scientologists, as far as I know, don’t consider themselves to be Christian, so they don’t belong. I suppose if a branch of scientology wanted to identify with Christianity (and was willing to coexist with and welcome the post-denominationalists), then those scientologists would be welcome.

With this in mind who is going to lead these services and how does one agree as to how one joins?

This is not a problem. There will never be post-denominational worship services. Post-denominationalism is a meta-group within Christianity. It requires denominationalism to exist. Worship is found from many of the existing churches, and ideally a post-denominationalist will make his or her circle of friends wide enough to include members of many different denominations.

The organisation, as a meta-group, might have conferences and a website, might have discussion groups, and certainly post-denominationalists in the same area would meet, talk and get to know each other. I think in many places this already exists, though without the name and without the possible global connections.

You worship with the denomination of non…a Protestant group that does not know that they are Protestant, an Episcopalian group that has a liturgical base and sacramental system, Presbyterians that consider anyone that is not Reformed not the elect or damned, and a Catholic Mass, the Church that claims it is that from which all others sprang. Sounds like an interesting journey.

Thanks Actually, it’s not quite that way. The Episcopal Church is pretty open, and has a common communion with the Presbyterians. The Presbyterian church is more like a budding mega-church, and has strong conservative teachings about Jesus and miracles (that I don’t agree with, but happily tolerate; I celebrate the diversity!). It does not consider the non-reformed to be damned, and in its own words ‘avoids dwelling on hell.’

The most exclusive and most difficult group is the Catholics. Even there, I feel very-much welcome. The Catholic community where I live is warm and inviting, and intellectually challenging and stimulating. This is something I want and enjoy. The community feeds me in a way the other communities do not (of course, the converse is equally true). It does bother me that I will not be able to be really part of this community. My beliefs, and the exclusive nature of Roman Catholicism, forbid me to do so in good conscience.

The place I have found myself is full of challenges, but it is very rewarding. I am doing something new, and it is something many others have started to do. I have great hopes that this may be one of the sources of healing Christian division, without destroying the beautiful diversity so many denominations have afforded us.

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

That being said I have non-Catholic Christian friends and we are united in our belief in Jesus, and even with my Muslim friends we are united with our belief in God. They would be welcome at the Catholic Church, just not at holy communion.

I have yet to feel unwelcome in a Catholic church.

 

[Stephen168]

I have yet to feel unwelcome in a Catholic church.

Is that why you feel you have a right to communion?

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

Is that why you feel you have a right to communion?

I don’t see communion as a right. “Right” is a word that is used too much.

Roman Catholics should be able to determine the pre-requisites for their own rituals, just like any other religion. Religions should be able to be as esoteric or exclusive as they like.

I would be very happy, however, if Rome decided to change the rules (or if the local church would), and open communion. But if they don’t change the rules, my rights remain unviolated.

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t see communion as a right. “Right” is a word that is used too much.

Roman Catholics should be able to determine the pre-requisites for their own rituals, just like any other religion. Religions should be able to be as esoteric or exclusive as they like.

I would be very happy, however, if Rome decided to change the rules (or if the local church would), and open communion. But if they don’t change the rules, my rights remain unviolated.

Yet, you say you take it anyway

I don’t receive Catholic or Orthodox communion (except at the liberal Catholic churches, of course).

 

[grandfather]

I

This is something I believe. I think that God eventually saves everyone regardless of his or her individual beliefs. But in this belief, I may be wrong. If I find good evidence to suspect that I am wrong, then I will adjust this belief. The new belief will also be uncertain.
!

Brandon,

Jesus promised His followers that He would send them the Holy Spirit who would lead them into ALL truth, and that He would be with them until the end of time. He commanded them to go into all the nations of the world and teach them everything He taught them.

If Jesus’s promise is true then the Church’s doctrines, her teaching, over all the centuries to this day are true.

If His promises are true then we can know truth with certainty. Our beliefs are not uncertain. God either wants us to know His truth or He wants us to be left guessing, changing our individual beliefs based on what we think from time to time and never knowing for sure what is true or false.

God made us and everything that exists. He made it all including your individual soul for a purpose, His purpose. Every people in every age wonder about existance. What is it all about? Why am I hear? Where did it all come from? Where is it all going? What happens when we die? What is my destiny and how do I get there?

God made us to contemplate, to wonder. Jesus says in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we have to become as little children. A child is full of wonder.

We can not know the answers to these questions we all wonder about by figuring them out with the power of our minds. They are beyond us. Again, God designed and made us for His purposes. We are mysteries to ourselves. Why do I exist? But people can speculate, guess at what the answers to the fundamental questions of life are. That is what you do. You believe X and if you find evidence of the opposite you will believe something else, but never know for sure if you are right. It is all uncertain.

This is not what God intended for you. His will is that you know truth with certainty.

If we can not figure out the answers to our questions we wonder about that does not mean we can not have the answers. We can know the answers if God gives them to us, reveals them.

Then we do not know by guessing, making up what we think are the right answers, but we know by faith, by belieiving what God reveals. We can know for certain why we exist and how to live and achieve our purpose by faith in God, not our own uncertain ideas that change from time to time.

You are making up your own religion, speculating about matters that are impossible to know for certain, but nevertheless very important. God reveals truths about Him and us, because we need to know them, not simply to satisfy our curiousity.

The Bible tells us that the way we are to learn His truth is from those He sends to us in His Church. If you do not learn these things from the Church you will continue to keep guessing and going from believing one thing to another based on what seems right at the moment.

Ask yourself. Is that what God wants for you, to be left adrift on your own, never knowing important truths for certain? That is nothing more than being lost and confused.

.

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

Yet, you say you take it anyway

I actually said that I do not receive communion in the Catholic church here (or at least, this is what I meant).

I receive in the Episcopal Church, and I used to in a more liberal Catholic church back in the States. The reason I received there is they made it clear that they disagree with Rome’s rules about communion, and invited everyone to partake.

If I’m invited, I go. If not, I don’t. I can still be welcome, and not receive.

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

Then we do not know by guessing, making up what we think are the right answers, but we know by faith, by belieiving what God reveals. We can know for certain why we exist and how to live and achieve our purpose by faith in God, not our own uncertain ideas that change from time to time.

I don’t see how we can know.

Thank you for your kind letter and warm admonition. I just don’t see how I can possibly know with certainty, this side of Heaven. I am hopeful that, after I die, then truth will be revealed, and then I may enjoy the same certainty in both faith and science that I currently enjoy in mathematics.

 

[Publisher]

Brandon…you wrote…“This is something I believe. I think that God eventually saves everyone regardless of his or her individual beliefs. But in this belief, I may be wrong. If I find good evidence to suspect that I am wrong, then I will adjust this belief. The new belief will also be uncertain.”

You might be interested in a great book I very much enjoyed on this subject…“If Grace is True” by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland.

I too believe One Day…God will reconcile His Creation to Himself…One Day “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Chris is Lord to the Glory of God.”…One Day we shall Know.

 

[Brandon_Rimmer_1]

Brandon…you wrote…“This is something I believe. I think that God eventually saves everyone regardless of his or her individual beliefs. But in this belief, I may be wrong. If I find good evidence to suspect that I am wrong, then I will adjust this belief. The new belief will also be uncertain.”

You might be interested in a great book I very much enjoyed on this subject…“If Grace is True” by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland.

I too believe One Day…God will reconcile His Creation to Himself…One Day “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Chris is Lord to the Glory of God.”…One Day we shall Know.

Thank you for the kind words, and for the book recommendation. I’m looking it up now.

 

[Publisher]

Thank you for the kind words, and for the book recommendation. I’m looking it up now.

It’s companion “If God Is Love” is also a good read…by same authors.