No Diversity in Islam

[oldcatholicguy]

Try this:

crisismagazine.com/2014/myth-islams-diversity

Linus2nd

I just tried it and it works for now.

It works. Thank you. I don’t really see any value in the article. The author states- “The chief disagreement between the two main divisions of Islam—Sunni and Shia—is not over theology but over politics—over the proper line of succession to Muhammad.” Now, unlike one of the individuals the author repeatedly cites in the article, I don’t claim to be an expert on Islam, but I’m pretty sure the differences between the two largest divisions of Islam (there are more and there are sub-divisions within the two main divisions) has to do with more than just politics. Off the top of my uneducated head- what texts can be used to form/interpret theological doctrine, theological thought on the Mahdi, and the sinless/sinful nature of the Imam.

I’m also puzzled why the author decided to use the examples he used when discussing the lack of diversity (which is apparently a bad thing if we follow the main line of thinking of the article) in Catholicism.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I suggest you read the following link.
crisismagazine.com/2014/m…lams-diversity

I also suggest you read Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide. by Bat Ye’or, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam by Bay Ye’or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude by Bat Ye’or, and From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters.

You do realize that atheism is not an option under Sharia law?

Linus2nd

---

Yes. That’s one of the many reasons that I do not live in Iran.

It seems that you didn’t actually consider what I wrote and just want to spread more fear and distrust of Muslims. There are many reasons why I do not fear a sharia takeover of the west. Do I think that society will become more secular? Probably. Do I fear a resurgence of the Santorum/Huckabee brand of the Christian right? Yes. But the concern that radical Islam will take over western governments and civilization is just fear mongering.

 

[peace_at_last]

The article linked by the OP is full of errors and one sided. The author is either grossly misinformed or has an agenda to bash Islam as a whole.

Shia and Sunni Islam are worlds apart. There is a reason that the most brutal and extremist terrorist groups are born out of Sunni Islam: al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Wahhabism, … etc. Sunni and Shia beliefs are different on almost every single aspect that you can think of.

 

[openmind77]

Yes. That’s one of the many reasons that I do not live in Iran.

It seems that you didn’t actually consider what I wrote and just want to spread more fear and distrust of Muslims. There are many reasons why I do not fear a sharia takeover of the west. Do I think that society will become more secular? Probably. Do I fear a resurgence of the Santorum/Huckabee brand of the Christian right? Yes. But the concern that radical Islam will take over western governments and civilization is just fear mongering.

I agree that the idea that Islam will take over the world and Sharia will be become the law of the land is as far fetched as the cold war idea that communism was going to take over the world - actually even more unlikely because they just don’t have the weapons that communist Russia had.

All that the Muslim extremists can do is scare us, they have difficulty taking over their own countries.

 

[MartinJordan]

I suggest you read the following link.
crisismagazine.com/2014/m…lams-diversity

I also suggest you read Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide. by Bat Ye’or, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam by Bay Ye’or,The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude by Bat Ye’or, and From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters.

Linus2nd

---

Don’t worry about me. My faith is secure

MJ

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The article linked by the OP is full of errors and one sided. The author is either grossly misinformed or has an agenda to bash Islam as a whole.

Shia and Sunni Islam are worlds apart. There is a reason that the most brutal and extremist terrorist groups are born out of Sunni Islam: al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Wahhabism, … etc. Sunni and Shia beliefs are different on almost every single aspect that you can think of.

Could you briefly list some of the theological differences between Sunni and Shia Islam? I’m asking because such a list would easily show how shallow the author’s understanding and/or presentation of Islam is given his comment about politics being the only real difference between the two.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Could you briefly list some of the theological differences between Sunni and Shia Islam? I’m asking because such a list would easily show how shallow the author’s understanding and/or presentation of Islam is given his comment about politics being the only real difference between the two.

Well, for starters, the whole idea that the successor to Mohammed is merely a political difference is rather misleading. That’s like saying disputes in Christianity over the role of the Pope were a political matter and not theological. Sure politics played into the dispute, but at the end of the day there’s a real theological difference there.

We need to remember that to non-Christians our differences seem petty and political rather than theological. Things always look different from the outside.

 

[eddie_too]

i am curious as to what islam teaches. who speaks for islam so that we might get the true teachings of mohammed?

what do all muslims agree is Islamic teachings?

some have posted here there understanding of islam, but others disagree. my interest lies in finding out who among the teachers of islam is teaching what mohammed taught and when I find disagreement among self-proclaimed Islamic teachers, which one should I believe is teaching what mohammed taught.

unless we know what mohammed taught, it seems pointless to discuss the theology of islam.

as we have seen in Christianity, it is possible for any tom, dick or harry to proclaim themselves authentic teachers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

as a RC, I follow the successors to the apostles. I believe Jesus created a mechanism to ensure that the authenticity of His teachings remained available to all future generations of His followers. so, if I want to know what Jesus taught about something I can simply find out what the successors to the apostles teach about it.

if there is no mechanism for ensuring faithfulness to the teachings of a person who has died, then the reality is that the person’s teachings cannot be truly known. whatever that person might have taught becomes fodder for disagreement, contention and division because NO ONE knows what the authentic teachings of the person are.

 

[peace_at_last]

Could you briefly list some of the theological differences between Sunni and Shia Islam? I’m asking because such a list would easily show how shallow the author’s understanding and/or presentation of Islam is given his comment about politics being the only real difference between the two.

Some examples:

God:
Shia: Inconceivable by imagination and eyesight. Is not physical and has no physical attributes. Has nothing in common with His creations.
Sunni: Can be seen by the eyes and has human-like forms and attributes.

Prophets (specially Muhammad peace be upon him) :
Shia: Are infallible and free from sin. Are at the pinnacle of morals and ethics. They are bestowed with God given knowledge that encompasses everything.
Sunni: Prophets make mistakes and go about cursing and swearing to the faithful. Their knowledge is limited and they are like normal people in worldly affairs and can be ignorant in this scope.

The successor to the Prophet:
Shia: Can only be selected by God for He is the only person that knows who is best suited for this task. The successor to the Prophet must necessarily be free from sin and infallible and must have God given knowledge to prevent him from misguiding the people. The successors are twelve people called the Imams.
Sunni: The successor of a Prophet is chosen by the people. Is not infallible and can be ignorant.

Scripture:
Shia: A great emphasis had been put on writing down the sayings of the Prophets and Imams (from day 1) to prevent them from being distorted and to convey them to later generations. Shia scripture is made up of the sayings of the Prophet and infallible Imams. The knowledge that God bestowed upon the Prophet was divinely passed on to the Imams.
Sunni: After the Prophet passed away, for about 100 years, writing of the sayings of the Prophet was prohibited by Sunni Caliphs. After 100 years, the Sunni corpus was formed by what had been passed down orally from one person to another for 100 years, thus rendering them extremely unreliable. Furthermore, the sayings and deeds of the Sahaba ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahabah ) who were the fallible companions of the Prophet are considered correct solely because they are the ‘Sahaba’. Amongst these companions many were hypocrites who made gruesome errors and even committed serious crimes. For instance on the orders of the first and second Sunni caliphs, the house of the Prophets daughter was set on fire, she was physically abused to the extent that she suffered a miscarriage and subsequently died of her injuries. The Prophets grandsons, al-Hasan and al-Husayn (the second and third Shia Imams) were also ruthlessly murdered by the followers of the same people, as were eleven of the Shia Imams. ISIS follows the same path today.

If you have any questions or other topics in mind I can elaborate.

 

[dronald]

Prophets (specially Muhammad peace be upon him) :
Shia: Are infallible and free from sin. Are at the pinnacle of morals and ethics. They are bestowed with God given knowledge that encompasses everything.
Sunni: Prophets make mistakes and go about cursing and swearing to the faithful. Their knowledge is limited and they are like normal people in worldly affairs and can be ignorant in this scope.

History is against the Shia on this one.

 

[eddie_too]

i am curious as to what islam teaches. who speaks for islam so that we might get the true teachings of mohammed?

what do all muslims agree is Islamic teachings?

some have posted here there understanding of islam, but others disagree. my interest lies in finding out who among the teachers of islam is teaching what mohammed taught and when I find disagreement among self-proclaimed Islamic teachers, which one should I believe is teaching what mohammed taught.

unless we know what mohammed taught, it seems pointless to discuss the theology of islam.

as we have seen in Christianity, it is possible for any tom, dick or harry to proclaim themselves authentic teachers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

as a RC, I follow the successors to the apostles. I believe Jesus created a mechanism to ensure that the authenticity of His teachings remained available to all future generations of His followers. so, if I want to know what Jesus taught about something I can simply find out what the successors to the apostles teach about it.

if there is no mechanism for ensuring faithfulness to the teachings of a person who has died, then the reality is that the person’s teachings cannot be truly known. whatever that person might have taught becomes fodder for disagreement, contention and division because NO ONE knows what the authentic teachings of the person are.

 

[meltzerboy]

Some examples:

God:
Shia: Inconceivable by imagination and eyesight. Is not physical and has no physical attributes. Has nothing in common with His creations.
Sunni: Can be seen by the eyes and has human-like forms and attributes.

Prophets (specially Muhammad peace be upon him) :
Shia: Are infallible and free from sin. Are at the pinnacle of morals and ethics. They are bestowed with God given knowledge that encompasses everything.
Sunni: Prophets make mistakes and go about cursing and swearing to the faithful. Their knowledge is limited and they are like normal people in worldly affairs and can be ignorant in this scope.

The successor to the Prophet:
Shia: Can only be selected by God for He is the only person that knows who is best suited for this task. The successor to the Prophet must necessarily be free from sin and infallible and must have God given knowledge to prevent him from misguiding the people. The successors are twelve people called the Imams.
Sunni: The successor of a Prophet is chosen by the people. Is not infallible and can be ignorant.

Scripture:
Shia: A great emphasis had been put on writing down the sayings of the Prophets and Imams (from day 1) to prevent them from being distorted and to convey them to later generations. Shia scripture is made up of the sayings of the Prophet and infallible Imams. The knowledge that God bestowed upon the Prophet was divinely passed on to the Imams.
Sunni: After the Prophet passed away, for about 100 years, writing of the sayings of the Prophet was prohibited by Sunni Caliphs. After 100 years, the Sunni corpus was formed by what had been passed down orally from one person to another for 100 years, thus rendering them extremely unreliable. Furthermore, the sayings and deeds of the Sahaba ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahabah ) who were the fallible companions of the Prophet are considered correct solely because they are the ‘Sahaba’. Amongst these companions many were hypocrites who made gruesome errors and even committed serious crimes. For instance on the orders of the first and second Sunni caliphs, the house of the Prophets daughter was set on fire, she was physically abused to the extent that she suffered a miscarriage and subsequently died of her injuries. The Prophets grandsons, al-Hasan and al-Husayn (the second and third Shia Imams) were also ruthlessly murdered by the followers of the same people, as were eleven of the Shia Imams. ISIS follows the same path today.

If you have any questions or other topics in mind I can elaborate.

Thank you for the information. However, I cannot help wondering about some of the things you state regarding Sunni Muslims. For example, is it really true what Sunnis say about prophets, even including Mohammad? And do Sunnis actually believe that G-d can be seen and takes on human-like forms? It seems to me these two instances go against what I know, admittedly not much, about the core of Muslim theology in general. You appear to be painting the Sunni Muslims in a completely unfavorable light.

 

[peace_at_last]

History is against the Shia on this one.

Hmm… seriously, at least write something that can be discussed.

 

[dronald]

Hmm… seriously, at least write something that can be discussed.

Sure. Throughout history it has been believed that the Prophets of old faltered.

David, Solomon, Jonah, etc. To deny this is to deny an ancient tradition.

 

[ChaosGamma]

Some examples:

God:
Shia: Inconceivable by imagination and eyesight. Is not physical and has no physical attributes. Has nothing in common with His creations.
Sunni: Can be seen by the eyes and has human-like forms and attributes.

Prophets (specially Muhammad peace be upon him) :
Shia: Are infallible and free from sin. Are at the pinnacle of morals and ethics. They are bestowed with God given knowledge that encompasses everything.
Sunni: Prophets make mistakes and go about cursing and swearing to the faithful. Their knowledge is limited and they are like normal people in worldly affairs and can be ignorant in this scope.

Okay, I find this interesting. I didn’t know that Sunnis and Shia had different beliefs on those subjects, but what you’re saying are the Shia beliefs are what I had always heard as simply what Muslims believe. I.E. that Muslims don’t believe that God can be seen is contrasted with the Christian belief in the Beatific vision.

EDIT: Regarding the prophets, I’ve seen some differing views on this. The first time I’d ever heard of it, it was someone claiming the Jesus was the only one of the prophets that was without sin. More recently I’ve also heard what you call the Shia belief from (I think, not completely certain) Sunni Muslims. Actually, from what I remember from reading the Quran (it’s been quite a while) that is more or less the impression I got from the way the prophets are portrayed.

 

[peace_at_last]

Thank you for the information. However, I cannot help wondering about some of the things you state regarding Sunni Muslims. For example, is it really true what Sunnis say about prophets, even including Mohammad? And do Sunnis actually believe that G-d can be seen and takes on human-like forms? It seems to me these two instances go against what I know, admittedly not much, about the core of Muslim theology in general. You appear to be painting the Sunni Muslims in a completely unfavorable light.

Here are a number of traditions from Sunni sources about God being see-able and having human like properties:

“On the authority of Abu Huraira: The people said, “O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ)! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night?” They said, “No, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ).” He said, “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?” They said, “No, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ).” He said, "So you will see Him, like that. Allah will gather all the people on the Day of Resurrection, and say, ‘Whoever worshipped something (in the world) should follow (that thing),’ so, whoever worshipped the sun will follow the sun, and whoever worshiped the moon will follow the moon, and whoever used to worship certain (other false) deities, he will follow those deities. And there will remain only this nation with its good people (or its hypocrites). (The sub-narrator, Ibrahim is in doubt.) Allah will come to them and say, ‘I am your Lord.’ They will (deny Him and) say, ‘We will stay here till our Lord comes, for when our Lord comes, we will recognize Him.’ So Allah will come to them in His appearance which they know, and will say, ‘I am your Lord.’ They will say, ‘You are our Lord,’ so they will follow Him.” sunnah.com/bukhari/97

"“One morning, the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was prevented from coming to us for Salat As-Subh, until we were just about to look for the eye of the sun (meaning sunrise). Then he came out quickly, had the Salat prepared for. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) performed the Salat, and he performed his Salat in a relatively quick manner. When he said the Salam, he called aloud with his voice saying to us: ‘Stay in your rows as you are.’ Then he turned coming near to us, then he said: 'I am going to narrate to you what kept me from you this morning: I got up during the night, I performed Wudu and prayed as much as I was able to, and I dozed off during my Salat, and fell deep asleep. Then I saw my Lord, Blessed and Most High, in the best of appearances. He said: ‘O Muhammad!’ I said: ‘My Lord here I am my Lord!’ He said: ‘What is it that the most exalted group busy themselves with?’ I said: ‘I do not know Lord.’ And He said it three times.” He said: “So I saw Him place His Palm between my shoulders, and I sensed the coolness of His Fingertips between my breast. Then everything was disclosed for me, and I became aware. So He said: ‘O Muhammad!’ I said: ‘Here I am my Lord!’” sunnah.com/tirmidhi/47

This is what they say about the Prophet cursing and beating the Muslims apparently for no reason but his anger and when they did not deserve to be cursed. In the book Sahih Muslim there is chapter called:

(25)Chapter: Whomever Is Cursed, Reviled Or Prayed Against By The Prophet (SAW) When He Does Not Deserve That, It Will Be Purification, Reward And Mercy For Him sunnah.com/muslim/45

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
O Allah, I am a human being and for any person amongst Muslims upon whom I hurl malediction or invoke curse or give him whipping make it a source of purity and mercy.sunnah.com/muslim/45

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
O Allah, I am a human being and for any person amongst Muslims upon whom I hurl malediction or invoke curse or give him whipping make it a source of purity and mercy.

sunnah.com/muslim/45

Here is a narration where Sunnis claim the Prophet was ignorant about worldly affairs:

Musa b. Talha reported:
I and Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) happened to pass by people near the date-palm trees. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What are these people doing? They said: They are grafting, i. e. they combine the male with the female (tree) and thus they yield more fruit. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said: I do not find it to be of any use. The people were informed about it and they abandoned this practice. Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) (was later) on informed (that the yield had dwindled), whereupon he said: If there is any use of it, then they should do it, for it was just a personal opinion of mine, and do not go after my personal opinion; but when I say to you anything on behalf of Allah, then do accept it, for I do not attribute lie to Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.

sunnah.com/muslim/43

 

[peace_at_last]

Sure. Throughout history it has been believed that the Prophets of old faltered.

David, Solomon, Jonah, etc. To deny this is to deny an ancient tradition.

Throughout history a group of people have held this belief and another group have rejected. Facts are not created by the beliefs of a group of people.

 

[peace_at_last]

Okay, I find this interesting. I didn’t know that Sunnis and Shia had different beliefs on those subjects, but what you’re saying are the Shia beliefs are what I had always heard as simply what Muslims believe. I.E. that Muslims don’t believe that God can be seen is contrasted with the Christian belief in the Beatific vision.

EDIT: Regarding the prophets, I’ve seen some differing views on this. The first time I’d ever heard of it, it was someone claiming the Jesus was the only one of the prophets that was without sin. More recently I’ve also heard what you call the Shia belief from (I think, not completely certain) Sunni Muslims. Actually, from what I remember from reading the Quran (it’s been quite a while) that is more or less the impression I got from the way the prophets are portrayed.

Shias and Sunnis have differences on almost everything you can think of because the sources for our scriptures only overlap in minor sections.

I just looked up beatific vision in Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision There is a section about Islam which sums up to what I said about the difference between Shia and Sunni belief about seeing God.

 

[dronald]

Throughout history a group of people have held this belief and another group have rejected. Facts are not created by the beliefs of a group of people.

Which group prior to Muhammad believed as you do? Can you please cite evidence?

 

[peace_at_last]

Which group prior to Muhammad believed as you do? Can you please cite evidence?

I was not referring to a group before Muhammad. I simply said facts are not created by the beliefs of a group of people. If no documents currently exist from before Muhammad that can show this, it still does not mean the beliefs of a group of people who thought prior Prophets sinned were right.

Anyway, considering how the church acted towards those who opposed its doctrines I would be surprised any documents can even be found today that would go against the mainstream beliefs of the church. See what happened to non-trinitarians:

"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offense, he shall be submitted for capital punishment…" — Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians