No divorce? Marriage question

[Irishgal49]

Your doggie is adorable. I resolved it but I have to study the Greek and Hebrew. I’m just a person who has to see it for myself. Once I took apart the Greek I could plainly see what the Church was saying.

 

[Irishgal49]

So to sum up, in the end you discovered that the Church’s teachings on marriage and divorce are correct. I do appreciate your investigation and explanations.

It’s interesting to look at how the Jews had requirements for marriage and considered some marriages invalid if they didn’t meet those requirements. Which is how the catholic church operates as well.

Exactly and as I was flapping my wings and digging in, I looked at all that and said, “Wow the Church is right on” that was a powerful moment for me. I don’t think just reading a parroted answer would have done it for me. I have a theology degree and it’s vital I dig in and see where it all came from.

So for the record, YES the Church teachings line up EXACTLY with what Jesus said,
BUT…if you only read it in English and someone doesn’t explain the difference, it can read like the Church is going against what Jesus said.

Some translations don’t say “unchastity” or “fornication” so that it reads “except for adultery” …that would be whole different ballgame and is, actually, not a correct translation. It was very enlightening. I learned a TON!!

Lorrie

 

[JNdoum]

Regarding Jesus’s teachings on divorce, the literal interpretation is the only interpretation. He certainly was not talking figuratively on this issue. I don’t know if the Churches teaching is different than Christ’s, but if it is, then I believe it is wrong.

When I said literal, i was referring more to his dissection of sentence structure. I felt he may have taken it to a bit of an extreme. I assumed it was clear that the Church teaches exactly what is said there, and I am sorry that I did not make this clearer.

 

[JNdoum]

Actually this “if you question it you are wrong” belief is not how I think. If the Church is teaching the truth it should stand up to scrutiny. I will never blindly believe anything, flat out. No matter who says it.

Here’s what I found out.

There are two words used in that passage that are vital.

Porneia–which is the word Jesus uses when saying that "except in the case of “porneia”…now this is interesting because it appears that Jesus is saying that this is grounds for a divorce. But porneia means “fornication”. It also can mean quite a few others things too like idol worship, bestiality, incest, and any sex committed by an unmarried person.

Now if Jesus meant “adultery” in that passage that would contradict the Church’s teaching. But he uses a different word at the end of the passage when he says adultery. He uses a completely different word.

Back in Jesus’ time (and still today where I live) Jews were not permitted to marry outside the faith. If a man wanted to be with a non-Jewish woman he lived with her “as his wife” but she wasn’t his wife. So they were committing “porneia” or fornication. My ex is Jewish and he says that the rabbi today will not marry anyone who is marrying a Gentile, they have to be married at the courthouse. Porneia is ONLY used to describe “unmarried sex” so Jesus was referring to “invalid” marriages…marriages that were not recognized as marriages. Back then if you took at woman as your wife, even if you didn’t get married in the Temple, you still had to divorce her. She got certain things and then left. Jesus was saying there was no sacramental bond in those cases. That is correct since they could not marry in the Temple. Sadly nowadays a guy could shack up for 4-5 years and toss her out into the street with nothing. That was not allowed back then. So Jesus is separating out the difference between a sacramental bond and an invalid marriage.

You can only commit Porneia if you are unmarried…having sex when you are not married is fornication and that is the word Jesus uses. He uses a different word, moichao, which is adultery. This is sex within the bonds of marriage.

So, Jesus is saying, "if you divorce and marry someone else, (except for the case of an invalid marriage) you are comitting adultery.

I say all this because:

If I see something that makes the Church look wrong I have to find it out for myself. I have this horrible habit, it’s called “thinking for myself”. I don’t BLINDLY accept anything where there is good solid commentary from our Lord.

What this does for me is now, when someone comes up and tries to use that verse to say the Catholic Church is wrong and should allow divorce, I can tell him IN MY OWN WORDS the truth of the passage and what is taught. People notice if you “parrot” things, but if you say, “You know I had a problem with this belief and here’s what I found out”.

I did find a site where it’s explained in detail. Some priests in their zeal to affirm the Church’s teachings will often neglect to give you HOW the Church arrived at that answer. I was married to a Jewish man so I have a head’s up on what Jewish men believed about “marriage” back then. We have a situation A + B = ??? and it’s like the people who tell you things can often say, the answer is C and not say, “here’s how we got to C”. My priest (whose been at it over 35 years) said, “I do the same thing. I wrestle all the time. Some people can immediately sign onto whatever the Church says and others of us have to be like Jacob and wrestle for the blessing. That’s who you are and it’s fine. If you ever need any help when you’re wrestling let me know.” I was in Confession and he said, “That’s not a sin, that’s your personality. You need to accept that’s your way of finding Truth and as long as your heart is open, you will find it.”

Here’s the link: holytrinityparish.net/Links/DivorceAnnulments.pdf

I like it because it doesn’t just parrot the teachings of the Church, it explains HOW the Church came to teach what it does.

Lorrie

Clearly I spoke in some babbling and unintelligent way, because my point did not get across at all. I apologize. I never meant to imply that you blindly accept anything, I simply meant to say that one shouldn’t condemn the sayer of the teaching simply because of personal doubt. I was trying to advocate trust while searching for truth instead of seeking out error, which, looking back, I’m not sure you were ever doing in the first place. I’m sorry for even opening my mouth on that one. Nevermind.

 

[superamazingman]

No actually that’s not what Jesus said, He actually says that anyone who gets a divorce EXCEPT FOR UNCHASTITY commits adultery. He says that one can divorce for that reason alone. Read the actual verse, it does NOT say a bond remains. He mentions a bond for those who divorce for the other reasons.

[Sigh]

We are not a church of sola scriptura. And the church does not teach that at all.

 

[Irishgal49]

[Sigh]

We are not a church of sola scriptura. And the church does not teach that at all.

I resolved it…you skipped my last 3 posts. It’s not about sola scriptura, it’s about words that Jesus actually spoke and once I dug into the Greek, I got what I needed.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi all,

The Catholic Church says marriage is not dissolvable, based on Jesus’ teachings, and I am unsure of this because Jesus Himself gives one reason where divorce is allowed. How can you deny what Jesus said out of His own mouth?

“And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:9). HE says you CAN divorce. Oh boy here I go, this is how priests get ticked off at me.

OK well at least I know I’m not going to this sexuality class, I will see if someone wants my book. I hate that I just cannot resolve my issues with the Church. Jesus says plainly that divorce is allowed but for only one reason. If that’s true, the Church is wrong, divorce IS allowed.

I’ve come to the conclusion that I just can’t resolve some of my issues with Church teachings but am really wanting to hear how everyone else approaches this text.

Thanks

Divorce was not part of God’s original plan. There was no divorce from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. Divorce was a concession by Moses because men were killing their wives to get out of marriage because divorce was not allowed.

Jesus returns marriage to its original correct state through his many references to the way things were “In the beginning.”

He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)

There was no divorce “From the beginning.” It was God’s plan “From the beginning” that there be no divorce.

And remember that he says that if you remarry, you commit adultery. If you divorce your spouse “Because of unchastity” (or incest, or unlawfulness, or whatever the text says) then you have only two options for the rest of your life - you must either remain single and celibate or reconcile with your spouse. Remarriage is not an option. If you remarry, you commit adultery.

And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." (Matthew 19:9)

Many want to focus on the divorce part, but it is the remarriage part that gets people in trouble. There is no such thing as remarriage. You either remain single or you reconcile with your spouse. Those are your only two options. If you remarry another you commit adultery, and if you marry a divorced woman you cause her to commit adultery. There is no remarriage and that’s where people get themselves in trouble.

It’s not easy, but that is the way God set things up “In the beginning.”

-Tim-

 

[EricFilmer]

Porneia–which is the word Jesus uses when saying that "except in the case of “porneia”…now this is interesting because it appears that Jesus is saying that this is grounds for a divorce. But porneia means “fornication”. It also can mean quite a few others things too like idol worship, bestiality, incest, and any sex committed by an unmarried person.

Your research into the Greek is commendable, and I’ll just add a little more elaboration to what you discerned in the course of this thread. In such Gospel passages the particular interpretation of porneia that the Catholic Church has historically focused on is “incest.” Jesus stated in the Gospels that many Gentiles would become his followers. The problem is that many Gentiles in the ancient world had marriages where the husband & wife were too closely related. Although this was not prohibited in certain types of paganism, such marriages were not considered valid in Jude-Christianity. A Gentile who got married to a close relative and later wanted to convert to Christianity was permitted a divorce so that the marriage would not be a barrier to becoming Christian. Of course, the divorce did not actually dissolve a sacramentally valid marriage because an incestual marriage is not valid to begin with (but a declaration of divorce made by the Church made the separation official in the eyes of the community).

 

[Irishgal49]

Divorce was not part of God’s original plan. There was no divorce from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. Divorce was a concession by Moses because men were killing their wives to get out of marriage because divorce was not allowed.

Jesus returns marriage to its original correct state through his many references to the way things were “In the beginning.”

He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)

There was no divorce “From the beginning.” It was God’s plan “From the beginning” that there be no divorce.

And remember that he says that if you remarry, you commit adultery. If you divorce your spouse “Because of unchastity” (or incest, or unlawfulness, or whatever the text says) then you have only two options for the rest of your life - you must either remain single and celibate or reconcile with your spouse. Remarriage is not an option. If you remarry, you commit adultery.

And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." (Matthew 19:9)

Many want to focus on the divorce part, but it is the remarriage part that gets people in trouble. There is no such thing as remarriage. You either remain single or you reconcile with your spouse. Those are your only two options. If you remarry another you commit adultery, and if you marry a divorced woman you cause her to commit adultery. There is no remarriage and that’s where people get themselves in trouble.

It’s not easy, but that is the way God set things up “In the beginning.”

-Tim-

But if you are in an invalid marriage (not sacramental) you can remarry (which would technically be marrying for the first time since the other wasn’t valid). I received a declaration of nullity because I married outside the Church. In essence I wasn’t recognized as being married. I was told I still had to get the Tribunal declaration of nullity in case I wanted to marry in the Catholic Church.

Jesus when he says, "except in cases of pornoia, which means “fornication”. Married people commit adultery not fornication. It is believed that Jesus used this word to show that these “marriages” were not valid marriages and since you weren’t married sacramentally, then you could remarry (which again is not technically remarrying). So I can marry in the Church because I never had a sacramental marriage as determined by the Tribunal.

I had been married once before this time but it was “lack of form” again. I wasn’t Catholic but my first husband was and we weren’t married in the Church. Sadly he passed away 2 years ago so when I came back to the Church and sought the declaration of nullity, I just had to show a marriage license and death certificate for that marriage and didn’t have to get all the documents to prove he was Catholic. Since he was deceased it didn’t matter.

Lorrie

 

[Irishgal49]

Your research into the Greek is commendable, and I’ll just add a little more elaboration to what you discerned in the course of this thread. In such Gospel passages the particular interpretation of porneia that the Catholic Church has historically focused on is “incest.” Jesus stated in the Gospels that many Gentiles would become his followers. The problem is that many Gentiles in the ancient world had marriages where the husband & wife were too closely related. Although this was not prohibited in certain types of paganism, such marriages were not considered valid in Jude-Christianity. A Gentile who got married to a close relative and later wanted to convert to Christianity was permitted a divorce so that the marriage would not be a barrier to becoming Christian. Of course, the divorce did not actually dissolve a sacramentally valid marriage because an incestual marriage is not valid to begin with (but a declaration of divorce made by the Church made the separation official in the eyes of the community).

Exactly and that’s what I had to do. I didn’t have to get the standard annulment because I married outside the Church. We had divorced but I had to show the documents to ensure I never convalidated the marriage, etc. My first husband died so I didn’t have to address that one. It was declared that I can marry in the Catholic Church since my marriage was invalid. I just got the paper last week.

Lorrie

 

[Irishgal49]

Your research into the Greek is commendable, and I’ll just add a little more elaboration to what you discerned in the course of this thread. In such Gospel passages the particular interpretation of porneia that the Catholic Church has historically focused on is “incest.” Jesus stated in the Gospels that many Gentiles would become his followers. The problem is that many Gentiles in the ancient world had marriages where the husband & wife were too closely related. Although this was not prohibited in certain types of paganism, such marriages were not considered valid in Jude-Christianity. A Gentile who got married to a close relative and later wanted to convert to Christianity was permitted a divorce so that the marriage would not be a barrier to becoming Christian. Of course, the divorce did not actually dissolve a sacramentally valid marriage because an incestual marriage is not valid to begin with (but a declaration of divorce made by the Church made the separation official in the eyes of the community).

Thanks. I used to be an ordained Methodist Elder. My son died and through all that horrible suffering I ended up becoming Catholic. So I have a seminary degree and LOVE to tear into Canon Law, the Catechism, and Theology. Sometimes I will just pick a set of beliefs and research them.

What that does for me is it makes it so I can actually present the beliefs in my own words with my own sense of conviction. I found that people are more likely to listen to me if I can talk about searching it out and what I learned rather than parrot what a religion told me to say.

It’s fun when you sit there and a light bulb goes off, “WOW!!! They are right! I got it now!” It’s how I have come to experience God. I love theological discussions.

Lorrie

 

[Norseman82]

I read an interesting theory on a protestant website (my apologies if I’m repeating something that has been put forward already) that the “porneia” exception only refers to the betrothal period prior to the actual marriage:

bcbsr.com/topics/marry.html

 

[Vico]

I read an interesting theory on a protestant website (my apologies if I’m repeating something that has been put forward already) that the “porneia” exception only refers to the betrothal period prior to the actual marriage:

bcbsr.com/topics/marry.html

The older practice is betrothal, and then acceptance, if consummation occurred in the following year. Similarly in Catholic matrimony is ratified non-consummated marriage, which may be dissolved, with proof.

 

[Irishgal49]

The older practice is betrothal, and then acceptance, if consummation occurred in the following year. Similarly in Catholic matrimony is ratified non-consummated marriage, which may be dissolved, with proof.

Isn’t the betrothal in ancient Jewish marriage binding? Remember Joseph was going to give Mary a bill of divorce quietly? Isn’t it still considered bound if you’re betrothed? They had a ceremony for it.

 

[Vico]

Isn’t the betrothal in ancient Jewish marriage binding? Remember Joseph was going to give Mary a bill of divorce quietly? Isn’t it still considered bound if you’re betrothed? They had a ceremony for it.

Once a marriage was arranged (betrothal) the groom and bride would be apart for about a year. During that time the groom prepares a place for them, and abstains from alcohol, and the bride, who wears a veil all the time now, has a celebration (mikvah) and ritual bath. When the marriage celebration finally occurs, they have a seven day honeymoon to consummate.

If is at this consummation that serious consequences may occur, such as death, for sexual sins. See Deuteronomy 22:13 and after.