No doubts about converting from LCMS

[AmbroseSJ]

Luther deems the Pope the antichrist because of the claims he makes about Papal authority so by that logic (for the LCMS) it would seem the term antichrist would follow the office not the man.

The difficulty with that explanation is that the term Antichrist applies to a person not an office. Therefore it MUST apply to the PERSON in that office. No matter how much the LCMS try to dissemble their doctrine, people like pastor Fisk will always use it in the ONLY way in which it makes sense.

Example, The office of the US President and the President himself are one and the same. The person holds and office, but it is STILL a PERSON. We CAN’T speak of a disembodied, de-personalized President. The term President can only refers to an office when describing the duties etc. of THE PERSON.

Therefore to call the Pope the Antichrist, but qualify that and say, that only applies to the office, is to say that THE PERSON of the Pope is performing the Duties of the Antichrist, and MUST THEREFORE be the Antichrist.

Now some LCMSers will say, oh, well this pope is not performing the duties of the Antichrist, and he is ok. But that is NOT their doctrine. They are too wishy washy to either repudiate their doctrine, or staunchly uphold it.

There is no Real world where you can SEPARATE the office from the person, as the LCMS TRIES to do. It is CLASSIC Protestant sophistry.

 

[steido01]

There is no Real world where you can SEPARATE the office from the person, as the LCMS TRIES to do. It is CLASSIC Protestant sophistry.

You separate the sin from the sinner, do you not? We do the same.

Let’s try this: I am a son. I am a husband. I am a father to an unborn child. I am a coworker. I am a supervisor.

I am typically not acting as more than one of these things at a given time (My duties as a husband are quite different from my duties as a son! ). It is the actions that define me - I am a son to my parents, a husband to my wife, etc. I am not a son to my wife, nor am I a husband to my parents. In each case, I am defined by my actions. Lutheran Confessions speak in the same way - they identify the actions which we perceive to be contrary to the Bishop of Rome’s divine calling, and assign the label accordingly (note that the label isn’t even attached until paragraph 39!). There is no disassembling of our doctrine here; this is what we profess. That you don’t believe us when we tell you what we actually believe is - well, it’s not my problem.

Look at the actual wording of our Confessions. Note the actions that are named:

The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church…

 

[Topper17]

Hi Am,

The difficulty with that explanation is that the term Antichrist applies to a person not an office. Therefore it MUST apply to the PERSON in that office. No matter how much the LCMS try to dissemble their doctrine, people like pastor Fisk will always use it in the ONLY way in which it makes sense.

Therefore to call the Pope the Antichrist, but qualify that and say, that only applies to the office, is to say that THE PERSON of the Pope is performing the Duties of the Antichrist, and MUST THEREFORE be the Antichrist.

Now some LCMSers will say, oh, well this pope is not performing the duties of the Antichrist, and he is ok. But that is NOT their doctrine. They are too wishy washy to either repudiate their doctrine, or staunchly uphold it.

There is no Real world where you can SEPARATE the office from the person, as the LCMS TRIES to do. It is CLASSIC Protestant sophistry.

I agree completely. Over on the Non-Denominational treads, there is a very similar discussion in a thread called “How do protestants explain history”.

In that thread I posted the actual text of the Lutheran Confessional document which pastor fisk spoke about. It makes it VERY clear that it is NOT the office of the papacy which is the anti-christ and ALSO makes it very clear that is also the ‘adherents’ of the Pope which bear the marks of the antichrist. The text of this document is as follows.

The Formula of Concord - A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald – 1537

INTRODUCTION TO THE TREATISE ON THE POWER AND PRIMACY OF THE POPE

“39] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.

57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist.

59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity…”

#39 makes it very clear that ‘all the marks of antichrist’ are on ‘Roman pontiffs, with their adherents’. #57 makes it very clear that the Pope – ‘him’ is antichrist. The ‘him’ is personal. There is absolutely NO mention of the ‘office’ in this document. #59 again mentions the Pope AND his ‘adherents’.

It would seem that the ‘adherents’ are people who, like me, are loyal to the Church and to the Bishop of Rome. Apparently according to the Lutheran Confessions, I, personally, bear the mark of the antichrist. I have asked specifically who the ‘adherents’ are that bear the mark of the antichrist and have not gotten an answer.

As we both know, there are plenty of Lutherans here who would prefer that we NOT read their confessions literally, claiming that the antichrist is ONLY the office of the Bishop of Rome (as if that is not offensive enough). I have been told repeatedly that they personally don’t consider the pope, personally, to be the antichrist and consider Catholics to be true Christians, etc, etc. But that is not the issue. What is important is NOT what individual LCMS members believe, but what their church officially teaches.

This is a very difficult distinction to make with Protestants. It seems that with Protestants, their personal opinions are MUCH more important to them than ours as loyal Catholics are to us. As Protestants, they have the ‘right’, and in fact, sometimes a duty, to disagree with their church. As a loyal Catholic, our ‘job’ is to accept what our Church teaches. Thus to them, what is important is what THEY believe, and to a loyal Catholic, what is important is what the Church teaches. In my experience, this difference ‘does not compute’ when the mindset revolves around the individual, what the self believes and perceives. Of course, with that ‘my opinion’ being supreme, there was no way that the Reformation could remain united in doctrine or anything else, and history shows that it was only a matter of months before the schisms within Protestantism began to emerge.

It seems that many of the Lutherans here claim to adhere to their Confessional documents, but when push comes to shove, they really don’t. Of course they can always resort to tortured ‘interpretations’ of those documents and attempt to make us believe that they don’t say what they clearly do say.

When it comes to whether the Pope or ‘merely’ the office of the papacy is the anti-christ – well – you can believe Luther, Melanchthon, the other 30 signatories of the above document, the Formula of Concord, pastor fisk (small ‘p’), etc, etc, or you can believe the least authoritative sources available, which are lay LCMS apologists.

BTW, most of the people who admitted to watching that ridiculous video of pastor fisk, could only watch a few minutes before they became disgusted and quit. I am apparently much tougher than most and made it through the first ten. Personally I believe that ALL LCMS members should watch that video and I would definitely recommend that anybody who is ‘searching’ should also. I can’t imagine a better advertisement for the Catholic Church (unless it is some of the “lesser known teachings of Martin Luther).

God Bless You Am, Topper

 

[AmbroseSJ]

You separate the sin from the sinner, do you not? We do the same.

Apparently not. You just called one who sins a sinner. How are you separating the sin from the sinner? One who sins is a sinner. Thanks for helping me make the point.

LCMS: The papacy is the Antichrist. But the Antichrist is a person. How can an abstract idea of a historical office in the Church be the Antichrist? Has Scripture been tortured so far?

I know LCMS doctrine on this point runs into incredibly elaborate ways of saying what it says it is not saying, but the end result is that the Pope is the Antichrist.

The waffling, wavering, dissembling, sophistry of this LCMS doctrine is revolting and repugnant to a rational person. It dares not call the Pope the Antichrist, yet it dares not reject the heinous doctrine itself.

@ topper: Thanks and right back atcha!

 

[steido01]

#39 makes it very clear that ‘all the marks of antichrist’ are on ‘Roman pontiffs, with their adherents’. #57 makes it very clear that the Pope – ‘him’ is antichrist. The ‘him’ is personal. There is absolutely NO mention of the ‘office’ in this document. #59 again mentions the Pope AND his ‘adherents’.

Yes, Topper. Insofar as the Pope and his adherents obscure the Gospel with added dogmas not based in Holy Scripture, he is antiChrist because he is acting anti-to-Christ. Just as when I kiss my wife, I am her husband. Why is this so hard to understand? You see that by the Lutheran definition of antiChrist, it is not limited to the Pope - even Lutherans can act anti-to-Christ! This is why we must remain particularly vigilant against poor catechesis and mischaracterizations by those who do not understand what we believe.

As we both know, there are plenty of Lutherans here who would prefer that we NOT read their confessions literally, claiming that the antichrist is ONLY the office of the Bishop of Rome (as if that is not offensive enough). I have been told repeatedly that they personally don’t consider the pope, personally, to be the antichrist and consider Catholics to be true Christians, etc, etc. But that is not the issue. What is important is NOT what individual LCMS members believe, but what their church officially teaches.

Here is what our church officially teaches, Topper. It’s right here. Read it. Read it and learn what we actually teach. Stop telling us what you mistakenly think we do. This is what we believe:

Q: The connection between the antichrist and pope are unclear to me. Do you believe the pope is the only enemy?
A: The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is ummarized as follows by the Synod’s Theological Commission:
The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ’s Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ. However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8,11, 20-21, 24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . . Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.
In a footnote, the Commission adds: To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.
Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.
lcms.org/faqs/lcmsviews#pope

This is a very difficult distinction to make with Protestants. It seems that with Protestants, their personal opinions are MUCH more important to them than ours as loyal Catholics are to us. As Protestants, they have the ‘right’, and in fact, sometimes a duty, to disagree with their church. As a loyal Catholic, our ‘job’ is to accept what our Church teaches. Thus to them, what is important is what THEY believe, and to a loyal Catholic, what is important is what the Church teaches. In my experience, this difference ‘does not compute’ when the mindset revolves around the individual, what the self believes and perceives. Of course, with that ‘my opinion’ being supreme, there was no way that the Reformation could remain united in doctrine or anything else, and history shows that it was only a matter of months before the schisms within Protestantism began to emerge.

By the way, humans in His Church found reasons to splinter far before Luther (Great Schism?). That’s giving a little German monk far too much credit. It seems to me that there are several divisions of “Catholics” in today’s world too. What do we make of Old Catholics? The PNCC? American Catholic Church in the US? All the other “independent Catholics?”

It seems that many of the Lutherans here claim to adhere to their Confessional documents, but when push comes to shove, they really don’t. Of course they can always resort to tortured ‘interpretations’ of those documents and attempt to make us believe that they don’t say what they clearly do say.

It is your interpretation that is tortured. Please stop trying to interpret our documents to mean something other than what they do.

Continued…

 

[steido01]

Continued…

When it comes to whether the Pope or ‘merely’ the office of the papacy is the anti-christ – well – you can believe Luther, Melanchthon, the other 30 signatories of the above document, the Formula of Concord, pastor fisk (small ‘p’), etc, etc, or you can believe the least authoritative sources available, which are lay LCMS apologists.

Yes, Topper. Let’s look at what Melanchthon wrote when he signed his name to that document:

Concerning the pope I maintain that if he would allow the gospel, we, too, may (for the sake of peace and general unity among those Christians who are now under him and might be in the future) grant to him his superiority over the bishops which he has “by human right.”

pastor fisk (small ‘p’),

Why do you do this? I don’t know you, but your posts are some of the most offensive I have ever encountered.

I am apparently much tougher than most and made it through the first ten. Personally I believe that ALL LCMS members should watch that video and I would definitely recommend that anybody who is ‘searching’ should also. I can’t imagine a better advertisement for the Catholic Church (unless it is some of the “lesser known teachings of Martin Luther).

You know, I’ve considered swimming the Tiber before. But then I am reminded that there are just as many prideful sinners on your side. Thank you for increasing my faith.

I pray that God softens your heart toward your fellow Christians, and that He grants you His peace. I forgive you for your offenses.

 

[pablope]

Apparently not. You just called one who sins a sinner. How are you separating the sin from the sinner? One who sins is a sinner. Thanks for helping me make the point.

LCMS: The papacy is the Antichrist. But the Antichrist is a person. How can an abstract idea of a historical office in the Church be the Antichrist? Has Scripture been tortured so far?

I know LCMS doctrine on this point runs into incredibly elaborate ways of saying what it says it is not saying, but the end result is that the Pope is the Antichrist.

The waffling, wavering, dissembling, sophistry of this LCMS doctrine is revolting and repugnant to a rational person. It dares not call the Pope the Antichrist, yet it dares not reject the heinous doctrine itself.

@ topper: Thanks and right back atcha!

This is the sense I get of what the LCMS is saying…is that the pope is a good christian when he acts like one…and is the anti Christ when doing the duties of the pope, according to their judgement…of what the pope should not be or should be doing…

Just a lot of mental gymnastics…to try to rationalize the belief or teaching or doctrine…(of whatever it is called).

 

[TK421]

Oh my gosh that video made me shudder in my innermost being. I couldn’t get past 3 minutes because of the intense embarrassment and awkwardness I felt on his behalf.

I am so happy to see you fleeing homeward OP. Do not look back. :hug1:

 

[Erich]

The difficulty with that explanation is that the term Antichrist applies to a person not an office

Correct.

The Antichrist is mentioned by name in only four verses of Scripture: 1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3, and 2 John 7. There are other verses that many people link to the Antichrist, but since he isn’t named in them, the connection is not certain. The four Johanine verses must serve as the core of our knowledge before trying to link other verses to them.

In 1 John 2:18–19, we read, “Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

This passage appears to speak of a major individual Antichrist, as well as many minor individual Antichrists, who apparently are apostate Christians for “they went out from us.” The appearance of the individual Antichrist is yet future (“Antichrist is coming”), but the presence of the many Antichrists is a signal that “it is the last hour.”

In 1 John 2:22–23, we read, “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.”

This is consistent with the apostate nature of the many Antichrists, for they have “deny[ied] that Jesus is the Christ” and, in denying the Son, they have implicitly denied the Father. Presumably the same would be true of the individual Antichrist.

1 John 4:1–6 gives practical tests for discerning which spirits bearing revelation are from God and which are not. In John 4:3, we read that “every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of Antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.”

This shows that the Antichrist movement is inspired by spirits bearing false revelation and that refuse to confess Jesus. This movement had begun in John’s day but would grow afterward.

Finally, in 2 John 7, we read, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.”

Nothing there about the pope (any pope!) or the papacy.

 

[steve_b]

I posted back in December about my conversion from the LCMS and asked for help with book recommendations. Thanks to everyone who responded, it was very helpful. Earlier in December I had emailed a question to Pastor Jonathan Fisk about my planned conversion. He is a more orthodox LCMS pastor that I used to enjoy listening to on Youtube.

So here’s an update. I’m two months into a fantastic RCIA program and on track to enter into full membership in June. I have zero doubts about my conversion and feel very at home with the Church. I did not really expect to get an answer to my question from Pastor Fisk but much to my surprise he recently answered it on Youtube. The link will be below if you want to view it. With the benefit of my studies, and my RCIA class, I’m now able to have a much clearer perspective on the LCMS teachings regarding the RCC. Pastor Fisk also left no doubt as to the LCMS view on the RCC, unfortunately.

youtu.be/KxTglbyabk0

Welcome aboard!

btw, is that really a Lutheran pastor?

 

[JohnR77]

BTW, most of the people who admitted to watching that ridiculous video of pastor fisk, could only watch a few minutes before they became disgusted and quit. I am apparently much tougher than most and made it through the first ten. …
I can’t imagine a better advertisement for the Catholic Church

I forced myself to watch it. I offered it up for all the deceased Lutherans in Purgatory since their children probably don’t pray for them.

As I think most agree the painful aspect was how he misrepresented Catholic teaching. If we are going to use it as an educational piece, in my opinion we should in text form, list all the misrepresented teachings with links to Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs at Vatican website to show how easy it is to find out what the Church really teaches.

And clearly state, following Church commands, that we don’t judge Pastor Fisk - his heart or his person. Rather, we only judge his doctrinal errors based on what Christ has revealed. And state, “If not for the grace of God, there go I.”

Is this video an example how Satan has used the World to mislead people and to oppose the Church ? How else can you explain SO many errors in ten minutes time ? If this, the Catholic Church, is what Satan is fighting against then the Church must be true. I know one person who converted to Catholicism precisely because he could see that is what Satan was fighting.

Again, casting blame is something only God can do, since only He can judge hearts. First, I have to look to myself. Maybe as a somewhat knowledgable Catholic I am most to blame and I need to knock on doors of Lutheran Church’s to spread the Gospel ???

John

 

[JonNC]

A few clarifications:

1. The Lutheran Confessions are Lutheran, not only LCMS. To my knowledge, no Lutheran synod has jettisoned the confessions, at least not regarding this discussion.
2. Here is what the LCMS has said about Catholic Christians:

Q: A non-Lutheran Christian friend of mine recently stated that he believes that Catholics are not saved and should not be considered Christians. What is the Synod’s belief regarding the salvation of Catholics who adhere to Roman dogma?
A: The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches (in contrast to “cults,” which typically reject the doctrine of the Trinity and thus cannot be recognized as Christian). In fact, a primary “objective” listed in the Synod’s Constitution (Article III) is to “work through its official structure toward fellowship with other Christian church bodies”—which explicitly assumes that these “other church bodies” are “Christian” in nature. That does not lessen the Synod’s concern for the false doctrine taught and confessed by these churches, but it does highlight the Synod’s recognition that wherever the “marks of the church” (the Gospel and Sacraments) are present—even where “mixed” with error—there the Christian church is present. Such a church is a heterodox church, that is, a church that teaches false doctrine.

Of course, personal salvation is not merely a matter of external membership in or association with any church organization or denomination (including the LCMS), but comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone. All those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior are recognized as “Christians” by the Synod—only God can look into a person’s heart and see whether that person really believes. It is possible to have true and sincere faith in Jesus Christ even while having wrong or incomplete beliefs about other doctrinal issues.

This explains why former Synod President A.L. Barry called members of the Roman Catholic Church “our fellow Christians” in his statement Toward True Reconciliation, which at the same time identifies and laments the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

The great danger is that believing things contrary to God’s Word can obscure and perhaps even completely destroy belief in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior. We pray that this will not happen to those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior and yet belong to heterodox church bodies, including fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church.

To the extent, which seems extensive, that Pastor Fisk deviates from the teaching of the synod (expressed above) regarding Catholic Christians, he is to be admonished and corrected. No where, anywhere, does an LCMS pastor have the privilege to accuse Jesuits of being anything but Christian.

Below is Barry’s statement:

TOWARD TRUE RECONCILIATION
A Comment on Lutheran-Roman Catholic Relations

You may have heard that a declaration was signed that claims to resolve a key difference between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church. What you may not have heard is that more than 45 percent of the Lutheran church-bodies in the world did not support the declaration.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is the oldest and second-largest Lutheran church-body in the United States. We would like to explain why we could not support the declaration.

We rejoice that we have much in common with our fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. Because of what we have in common, we are committed to working toward true reconciliation of our important differences. We could not support the declaration because it does not actually reconcile the difference between us concerning the most important truth of Christianity.

What is that truth? God loved the world so much that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to live a perfect life in our place and to die for our sins. God declares us to be totally righteous and completely forgiven because of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. God gives us eternal life as a free gift through trust in Christ alone.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that something more than trust in Christ is necessary for us to be saved. It teaches that we are able to merit, through our works, eternal life for ourselves and others. We believe this teaching obscures the work of Jesus Christ and clouds the central message of the Bible.

Therefore, despite what has been reported in the public media about the Lutheran-Roman Catholic declaration, very significant differences remain in regard to how we understand salvation, a fact that the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges.

We pray for genuine reconciliation of differences among Christians. Our church is intent on working for the day when the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ is proclaimed with one voice. We will continue to work toward true reconciliation.

Any claim that Lutherans in general, or LCMS Lutherans in particular, believe that Catholics are not Christian is a false claim.

Jon

 

[Topper17]

Hi John,

I forced myself to watch it. I offered it up for all the deceased Lutherans in Purgatory since their children probably don’t pray for them.

As I think most agree the painful aspect was how he misrepresented Catholic teaching. If we are going to use it as an educational piece, in my opinion we should in text form, list all the misrepresented teachings with links to Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs at Vatican website to show how easy it is to find out what the Church really teaches.

And clearly state, following Church commands, that we don’t judge Pastor Fisk - his heart or his person. Rather, we only judge his doctrinal errors based on what Christ has revealed. And state, “If not for the grace of God, there go I.”

Is this video an example how Satan has used the World to mislead people and to oppose the Church ? How else can you explain SO many errors in ten minutes time? If this, the Catholic Church, is what Satan is fighting against then the Church must be true. I know one person who converted to Catholicism precisely because he could see that is what Satan was fighting.

Again, casting blame is something only God can do, since only He can judge hearts. First, I have to look to myself. Maybe as a somewhat knowledgable Catholic I am most to blame and I need to knock on doors of Lutheran Church’s to spread the Gospel ???

I agree with you 100%. However, things like that video do have an actual impact in the world, and as such, need to be dealt with in this world. Like you, I was pained by the way that he misrepresented Catholic teaching. As for writing an educational piece with links to the CCC, can you imagine how long that paper would have to be?

Certainly it is up to God to judge, but by the same token, this world also has consequences during our lives. In fact, I can’t remember even one aspect of Catholic teaching that he correctly represented. Which leaves us with the question as to whether the misrepresentation was intentional or simply done from ignorance.

If it was done from ignorance, then his (probably LCMS) education at seminary must have been very incomplete. If in fact, at seminary, he was taught the basics of Catholic belief correctly, then the fault is totally on him. On the other hand, if he wasn’t taught anything about Catholic belief in all of his years at seminary, which would be hard to believe, then he really shouldn’t be presenting himself in his U-Tube ‘ministry’ as some kind of ‘authority’ on the subject. If he was taught all of those falsehoods as beings facts in the Seminary, then the fault would be on his educators. No matter what, there was a pretty serious breakdown in regards to the truth. All that being said, one cannot escape the fact that the basics of Catholic teaching are extremely easy to look up on the web.

There are also the issues of accountability and consequences. This young pastor has a paycheck that is signed by somebody, which means that he is responsible to somebody for what he does. That U tube rant has been up now for over a month, which suggests to me that either his superiors are asleep at the wheel, or they don’t have a problem with what he said. One wonders which it is.

My guess is that that video will still be on U tube years from now, along with the 406 others that he has published, plus a lot more, all of them funded somehow by his supporters. God only knows what the rest are all about.

You bring up the interesting idea of preaching the Gospel at Lutheran churches. Do you think that it would be helpful to go to Lutheran churches to do a weeknight presentation on Catholic teaching including a time for Q and A?

God Bless You John, Topper

 

[elizaveta01]

Didn’t watch the video and don’t know anything about this particular pastor.

I do know the official position of the LCMS. It is: “While Lutherans believe that any doctrinal error has the potential to distort or deny Scripture’s teaching, we also believe that anyone (regardless of denominational affiliation) who truly believes in Jesus Christ as Savior will be saved.” (This was taken directly from an official LCMS website Q&A)

I spent some time as a Lutheran and can say that this was the constant teaching of the Lutheran pastors I have known personally.

If the pastor in the video is teaching otherwise, then he is not teaching true Lutheran doctrine.

 

[betsybug354]

The great danger is that believing things contrary to God’s Word can obscure and perhaps even completely destroy belief in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior. We pray that this will not happen to those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior and yet belong to heterodox church bodies, including fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church.
Jon

I have a lot of trouble with the Lutheran church terming the RCC a “heterodox church body.” The statement begs the question, “By what authority do you make the statement that the RCC is heterodox?” I have become fully convinced over the past several months after doing a great deal of study (church fathers, modern writings of Catholic and non-Catholic apologists, and history of the Reformation) that Martin Luther essentially replaced the ancient, Christ-given authority of the Catholic Church with his own authority. I do not think he had the right to do that, as evidenced by the Pandora’s box of disunity and disagreement he opened, the unfortunate effects of which we are still seeing today. Isn’t real heterodoxy adopting doctrines like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, while rejecting Sacred Tradition, apostolic succession, and papal primacy?

 

[Peter_J]

I have a lot of trouble with the Lutheran church terming the RCC a “heterodox church body.”

I hate to bear bad news, but we Catholics return the favor (so to speak) and consider Lutherans to be likewise “heterodox” – not to mention that the Orthodox regard both Lutherans and Catholics as “heterodox”.

 

[vsedriver]

All I can say is that St. Francis of Assisi set out to reform the Church… and succeeded. He must have had the help of the Holy Spirit.

Luther set out to reform the Church… he did not succeed. He made things worse. Does kind of make you think.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I hate to bear bad news, but we Catholics return the favor (so to speak) and consider Lutherans to be likewise “heterodox” – not to mention that the Orthodox regard both Lutherans and Catholics as “heterodox”.

But there is only ONE truth. Only one Church can be right.

 

[betsybug354]

But there is only ONE truth. Only one Church can be right.

 

[steve_b]

I hate to bear bad news, but we Catholics return the favor (so to speak) and consider Lutherans to be likewise “heterodox” – not to mention that the Orthodox regard both Lutherans and Catholics as “heterodox”.

This is not a matter of trading condemnations back and forth (returning favor so to speak as you say) as if all sides in the issue are equal in status, which they aren’t. Any more than Pelagius or Arius, or any other heretic or schismatic in history, are equal status with the Catholic Church, which they aren’t. LCMS is Protestantism. And we can’t ignore, Protestantism is a heresy, just like any of the other heresies in history. The Great Heresies

BTW, definitionally, so we don’t misuse terms, for one to be a heretic, they must have been validly baptised.

From the CCC: Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same