No doubts about converting from LCMS

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I posted back in December about my conversion from the LCMS and asked for help with book recommendations. Thanks to everyone who responded, it was very helpful. Earlier in December I had emailed a question to Pastor Jonathan Fisk about my planned conversion. He is a more orthodox LCMS pastor that I used to enjoy listening to on Youtube.

So here’s an update. I’m two months into a fantastic RCIA program and on track to enter into full membership in June. I have zero doubts about my conversion and feel very at home with the Church. I did not really expect to get an answer to my question from Pastor Fisk but much to my surprise he recently answered it on Youtube. The link will be below if you want to view it. With the benefit of my studies, and my RCIA class, I’m now able to have a much clearer perspective on the LCMS teachings regarding the RCC. Pastor Fisk also left no doubt as to the LCMS view on the RCC, unfortunately.

youtu.be/KxTglbyabk0
I will pray for you.
Pastor Fisk is sarcastic in his presentation of your former LCMS faith. But he speaks truth the Catholics on here who choose to not listen because they are taught to fear any dissension from Rome. I am a member of the WELS and when I listen to Catholic radio and they decry faith in Christ alone it makes me want to listen and share more!!!
 
I will pray for you.
Pastor Fisk is sarcastic in his presentation of your former LCMS faith. But he speaks truth the Catholics on here who choose to not listen because they are taught to fear any dissension from Rome. I am a member of the WELS and when I listen to Catholic radio and they decry faith in Christ alone it makes me want to listen and share more!!!
What about those of us who have become irresistibly attracted to the Catholic faith by legitimate study and a lot of prayer? I can assure you I’m not afraid of anyone. :confused:
 
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In spite of the soothing tones that we Catholics hear here on CA, Pautz sets the record straight. The term ‘Roman Catholic’ is apparently an accusation. Again, we hear that Lutherans have absolutely no intention of ‘adjusting’ their doctrinal beliefs for the sake of reunion with Catholics. If a reunion is to happen it will be because the Catholic Church (1.1 billion members) will have placated the LCMS with their 2.2 million

Unfortunately if we confessional Lutherans were to adjust our doctrine for the sake of reunification, we would only be rejecting the gospel to replace it with meritorious sacrifices and works to earn grace the very things Christ died to free you from. The fact that you boast about the numbers of the two churches (1.2 billion RC believers) absolutely does not bode well for reunification. I take it might makes right? Not a new outlook for your church at all. Muslims number 1.1 billion when they over take the Catholic Church as the largest religion should we all as Christians seek to “adjust” our doctrine of the Trinity to unify with them.

The Christian faith as espoused in the Scriptures is a free gift “grace” from God. Every other faith on earth is what man can do do to earn justification. The very fact that there are 1.2 billion souls under the judgement of the Vatican, is why I fear your church(not the people but the organization). The Bible tells us we are sinful from the time we were conceived, and that there is no good in us. So if that is our natural state and even when given faith we continue to sin it makes since that the majority of mankind would not receive a gift but reject it and try to save themselves. The four largest faiths Roman Catholicism: 1.2 billion, Islam: 1.1 billion, Hinduism 900 million, Buddhism 850 million account for nearly three quarters of the worlds people- narrow is the gate wide is the path my friend.

You think it will be tough to placate the doctrinal demands of my 2.2 million LCMS Brothers and sisters is tough(I know that paragraph was full of sarcasm)? My church the WELS and its half a million members ended fellowship with the LCMS for much less points of doctrine then separates the RCC from the truth.

I look at Catholic fervor for fighting against abortion and the various Popes repeating ordination for men alone, and then turn around and sign the JDDJ with the WLF who are pro choice ordain female and openly gay cleregy. It makes me want to cry, they don’t even recognize their own sin yet your church sought agreement on the central doctrine of justification. I don’t know that they hold to much truth at all so the only reason to seek cooperation would be if it was not about truth at all.

May the love of God which transcends all understanding be with you all.
 
What about those of us who have become irresistibly attracted to the Catholic faith by legitimate study and a lot of prayer? I can assure you I’m not afraid of anyone. :confused:
Well you are convert so ignorance is not your excuse! It is no surprise you find the Roman Catholic Church irresistible, our sinful nature craves legalism everything else in our lives is based on what we can do. So a system of penances and Saint worship and a re-sacrifice of the holy eucherist (there is a reason the curtain in temple tore and later the temple itself destroyed destroyed: Christ gave up his life once for all, you don’t need a priest to re-sacrifice him in a daily mass to placate your Father in Heaven).

Interestingly enough I come from a German Lutheran/Arab Muslim background and I live in Utah. So family who worship Allah and friends who think they can become a god them self. I will tell you the same I tell them Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. No brick and mortar church, nor living man saves you. Christ alone! Just as my my family prays to the false god of Islam, and my friends believe through works they can achieve godhood. You seek a false intercessor in Pope Francis (Christ interceeded for you at the cross), you seek an outpouring of grace when you pray to dead saints who are called such and have a place in heaven because of the love of Christ, not of their own accord. And all the while not knowing that if you confess Jesus as Lord God’s Spirit is already in you (you are a saint you don’t need to be canonized).

The worst part is that I know many Catholics truly trust Christ, but how many more are burdened with the work righteousness of an unnecessary priesthood and usurper of Christ’s authority in the Vatican. The devil is sinister he appealed to the sinful man in Mohammed by denying the nature of God which our minds being created can not fully comprehend in the Trinity. He appealed to the pride in our sinful nature in Joseph Smith a la the garden of Eden that we could make ourselves like unto God. At least the Muslim have no claim to be Christian, and the Mormons we Christians can see right through their progressive perfection. And yet worst of all what better way to draw people away from truth then to appear as an angel of light.

It is worse in the RCC because Satan has taken heterodoxy and dressed it in much truth. My friend may the Glory of God alone (not that of the world) be yours, through Christ alone, because of his grace alone, by faith alone, through Scripture alone.
Ali
 
Well you are convert so ignorance is not your excuse! It is no surprise you find the Roman Catholic Church irresistible, our sinful nature craves legalism everything else in our lives is based on what we can do. So a system of penances and Saint worship and a re-sacrifice of the holy eucherist (there is a reason the curtain in temple tore and later the temple itself destroyed destroyed: Christ gave up his life once for all, you don’t need a priest to re-sacrifice him in a daily mass to placate your Father in Heaven).

Interestingly enough I come from a German Lutheran/Arab Muslim background and I live in Utah. So family who worship Allah and friends who think they can become a god them self. I will tell you the same I tell them Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. No brick and mortar church, nor living man saves you. Christ alone! Just as my my family prays to the false god of Islam, and my friends believe through works they can achieve godhood. You seek a false intercessor in Pope Francis (Christ interceeded for you at the cross), you seek an outpouring of grace when you pray to dead saints who are called such and have a place in heaven because of the love of Christ, not of their own accord. And all the while not knowing that if you confess Jesus as Lord God’s Spirit is already in you (you are a saint you don’t need to be canonized).

The worst part is that I know many Catholics truly trust Christ, but how many more are burdened with the work righteousness of an unnecessary priesthood and usurper of Christ’s authority in the Vatican. The devil is sinister he appealed to the sinful man in Mohammed by denying the nature of God which our minds being created can not fully comprehend in the Trinity. He appealed to the pride in our sinful nature in Joseph Smith a la the garden of Eden that we could make ourselves like unto God. At least the Muslim have no claim to be Christian, and the Mormons we Christians can see right through their progressive perfection. And yet worst of all what better way to draw people away from truth then to appear as an angel of light.

It is worse in the RCC because Satan has taken heterodoxy and dressed it in much truth. My friend may the Glory of God alone (not that of the world) be yours, through Christ alone, because of his grace alone, by faith alone, through Scripture alone.
Ali
Sola; Please review the forum rules. This isn’t the place to say Satan has taken over heterodoxy so things are worse in the RCC; You’re off topic and are close to having an agenda and proselytizing. Next post as such I will report.
Mary
 
Well you are convert so ignorance is not your excuse! It is no surprise you find the Roman Catholic Church irresistible, our sinful nature craves legalism everything else in our lives is based on what we can do. So a system of penances and Saint worship and a re-sacrifice of the holy eucherist (there is a reason the curtain in temple tore and later the temple itself destroyed destroyed: Christ gave up his life once for all, you don’t need a priest to re-sacrifice him in a daily mass to placate your Father in Heaven).
Hi SGUT and welcome to the forum. We Catholics are likewise not happy when someone leaves Catholicism for Lutheranism. Nevertheless, the fact that such conversions (or whatever you want to call them) will continue to happen, in both directions, does not mean that Catholic-Lutheran rapproachment cannot continue.
 
No all Lutherans are part of the Lutheran World Federation. The LCMS and WELS did not agree with the signing of the JDDJ and put out strong statements against it stating it was a step back for Lutheranism.
Mary.
Thanks Mary for that simple statement. It enlightens by putting many of the recent posts into context. 👍
 
I will pray for you.
Pastor Fisk is sarcastic in his presentation of your former LCMS faith. But he speaks truth the Catholics on here who choose to not listen because they are taught to fear any dissension from Rome. I am a member of the WELS and when I listen to Catholic radio and they decry faith in Christ alone it makes me want to listen and share more!!!
Unfortunately, Catholics and Protestants usually talk past one another when discussing this topic. Catholics ALSO believe that Salvation is by Faith in Jesus Christ. Where we differ is that we don’t adhere to the “once saved always saved” error. Works are necessary, because as Scripture has it, without works Faith is dead. Our Liturgical reading today is telling: Matt 25:31-46 😉
 
Sola; Please review the forum rules. This isn’t the place to say Satan has taken over heterodoxy so things are worse in the RCC; You’re off topic and are close to having an agenda and proselytizing. Next post as such I will report.
Mary
I apologize Mary,
My conscience is convicted by truth. I reviewed the forum rules and I was slightly out of line with that post. I do hope however that you were able to understand the principal reason for that post!
Thank you God Bless
Solar Gratis UT
Ali
 
W

It is worse in the RCC because Satan has taken heterodoxy and dressed it in much truth. My friend may the Glory of God alone (not that of the world) be yours, through Christ alone, because of his grace alone, by faith alone, through Scripture alone.
Ali
And what is your evidence for the statment above that Satan has taken over the RCC?

How did Satan tell you? Did Satan appear to you? talked to you directly?

And how do you know your beliefs are the ones infected with error? Are you the one to make a determination of what is in error and what is not in error?

And also, can you provide the chapter and verse where it is stated that belief in Scripture alone takes you to heaven?
 
I apologize Mary,
My conscience is convicted by truth. I reviewed the forum rules and I was slightly out of line with that post. I do hope however that you were able to understand the principal reason for that post!
Thank you God Bless
Solar Gratis UT
Ali/QU

God Bless you as well,
Peace in Christ,
Mary.
 
Unfortunately, Catholics and Protestants usually talk past one another when discussing this topic. Catholics ALSO believe that Salvation is by Faith in Jesus Christ. Where we differ is that we don’t adhere to the “once saved always saved” error.
Neither do Lutherans.
Works are necessary, because as Scripture has it, without works Faith is dead. Our Liturgical reading today is telling: Matt 25:31-46 😉
Agreed. We do not subscribe to what Bonhoeffer termed a “cheap Grace.” The regenerate continually do good works because of Grace received in Faith.
“It is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!” - Martin Luther
 
Amen brother,
If only they could see their sacrificial mass as a work not because of faith but a work that holds Christ’s death in vain.

Grace and Peace to you from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ali
 
Okay…so you do to…so that makes you a minion of your own church too then…correct?
But I am not sure we agree on the definition of “the Church” to begin with
I hold to the 2000 year old definition of the church…not one invented during the Reformation and rebellion to the CC in the 1500s.
I believe the Pope usurps Christ’s authority.
Why do you think so?

So when your pastor teaches you…during Sundays, during other times…is he usurping the authority of Christ?
You church tells you he us infallible. I believe this pre-suposses the Pope can’t teach untruth.
When teaching on faith and morals.

When you pastor teaches, during his sermons, or any other times, let us say when someone asks a question on faith and morals…can your pastor make an error in what he will teach or say?
So you are pre-disposed to believe everything the church preaches is truth.
Well…are you not also pre-disposed to believe everything taught in your own WELS is the truth?
I know that the word infallible means without the ability to err, and I believe that can only be God.
So by belief in an infallible Pope you put him in the place of God(specifically in the place of Christ).
You have been given wrong information and no, when the pope teaches on faith and morals, the HS prevents him from making error.

When you pastor or WELS will teach on faith and morals…can they teach error or not?
In Romans St. Paul tells us “the wages of sin is death.” Therefore it follows that those who die have sin or error that can only be covered by the blood of Christ who was and is without sin . Show me a Pope who has not died and I will believe he was justified under the law, was infallible, and therefore did not need Christ. Even the champions of faith in the old testament failed to justify themselves ( I.e. Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah etc.)
You believe your own pastor, correct? Is he perfect or does he have sin also? So why do you believe him?

The head of WELS…in your own synod…or those who made and composed your own confessions of faith…why do you believe them? Why do you believe what the WELS teaches? Are the men who run WELS perfect and without sin also?
I obey the teachings of my church the WELS because it obeys the teachings of the Word Jesus. If ever my church whether the body or an individual Pastor teaches me contrary to Scripture I will be a loud voice of decent.
How will you know when the WELS or your pastor teaches contrary to Scripture? What will be your standard?
When you hold scripture as the authority you can see false teaching coming a mile a way
,

How does Scripture tell you what if false and what is not false? How will Scripture decide and tell you what is false and what is not false?
when a sinful man is your authority you are not free to dissent because you have to believe he has no error otherwise it can not stand.
Well, WELS is your authority, your pastor is also your authority…and it looks like you are saying you are your own authority…are the people running WELS without sin?

Is your pastor without sin? Are you without sin?
I choose Christ a solid foundation. How bout you Petra(Peter and Francis)? I leave you with the second part of the verse I quoted from Romans: " but the GIFT of God is eternal life" emphasis mine.
Grace and peace to you my friend
Ali
Well…did not Christ said He will build His Church on Peter/Cephas/Rock?

And what did Christ say of something built on sand versus rock? Which one will be strong and lasting…the one built on sand or rock?
 
Amen brother,
If only they could see their sacrificial mass as a work not because of faith but a work that holds Christ’s death in vain.
If Roman Catholics perceive the Mass to be a work done by men to appease God, then I join you in praying that they understand their error. However, we should pay them the courtesy of taking them at their word when they insist it is not a work done by men - even if the words they use (“My sacrifice and yours…”) certainly seem at odds to right thought to Lutheran ears.

I, personally, think there may exist some room between the differing Lutheran and Roman emphases of the Eucharist for our communions to come to a mutually-shared belief that does not compromise doctrine in the way that the JDDJ did. Obviously, that’ll be up to our much more learned clergy to decide in the coming dialogues. Let us pray for real unity among His people.
Grace and Peace to you from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Ali
And to you, Ali. It is good to see a WELS voice on the boards.
 
Wow Pablo brother you selected quotes from last post and many of your comments had no correlation to what I said at all when I get off work I would love to answer any and all questions you have about what I have said. Look for a private message later.
Peace in Christ Ali
 
Amen brother,
If only they could see their sacrificial mass as a work not because of faith but a work that holds Christ’s death in vain.

Grace and Peace to you from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ali
I would suggest that you read the thread starting from around post 119 to clear up your misinformation. Or start another thread. :cool:
 
“Luther’s version of the Holy Eucharist “has been accurately labeled ‘consubstantiation’ although Luther did not use that term. In the Eucharist, thought he, God was physically present, an in the liturgy of the Mass the believer could share an encounter with Christ, present in the same bodily world in which the Christian must live, and foretelling the resurrection of the body that would come at God’s pleasure.” Marius, pg. 251
On the falsity of Consubstantiation:

Hutter: When we use the particles ‘in, with, and under’, we understand no local inclusion whatever, not transubstantiation or consubstantiation.” “Hence is clear the odious falsity of those who charge our churches with teaching that ‘the bread of the Eucharist is literally and substantially the body of Christ’, that ‘bread and body constitute one substance…’

Andrew Osiander: “Our theologians for years long have strenuously denied and powerfully confuted the doctrine of a local inclusion, or physical connection of the body and bread, or consubstantiation. We believe in no impanation, subpanation, companation, or consubstantiation of the body of Christ; no physical or local inclusion or conjoining of bread and body, as our adversaries, in manifest calumnies, allege against us.

Mentzer: There is no local concealment of Christ’s body, or inclusion of particles of matter under the bread. Far from us be it that any believer should regard Christ’s body as present in a physical or natural mode. The eating and drinking are not natural or capernaitish, but mystical and sacramental.”

John Gerhard: “On account of the calumnies of our adversaries, we would note that we do not believe in impanation, , nor in consubstantiation, nor in any physical or local presence.”
“We believe in no consubstantiative presence of the body and blood. Far from us be that figment. The heavenly thing and the Earthly thing in the Lord’s Supper are not present with each other physically and naturally.

Musaeus: On the question, by what mode (quo modo) that which we receive and eat and drink in the Holy Supper Christ’s body and blood, we freely confess our ignorance.

Carpsov: When this presence is called substantial and bodily, those words designate not the MODE of presence, but the OBJECT. When the words in, with, under, are used, our traducers know, as well as they know their own fingers, that they do NOT signify a CONSUBSTANTIATION, local co-existence, or impanation. The charge that we hold a local inclusion, or Consubstantiation, is a calumny. The eating and drinking are not physical, but mystical and sacramental. An action is not necessarily figurative because it is not physical.

Sasse: It is impossible to define Luther’s doctrine as consubstantiation. Even the words ‘in the bread’, ‘with the bread’, ‘under the bread’, or ‘in, with, and under the bread’, were never regarded by Luther as more than attempts to express in these old, popular terms inherited from the Middle Ages the great mystery that the bread is the body, the wine is the blood, as the Words of Institution say.

Krauth: Consubstantiation. The charge that the Lutheran Church holds this monstrous doctrine has been repeated times without number. In the face of her solemn protestations the falsehood is still circulated. It would be easy to fill many pages with the declarations of the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and of her great theologians, who, without a dissenting **voice, repudiate this doctrine, the name and the thing, in whole and in every one of its parts. In the “Wittenberg Concord,” (1536,) prepared and signed by Luther and the other great leaders in the Church, it is said: “We deny the doctrine of transubstantiation, as we do also deny that the body and blood of Christ are locally included in the bread.” …**The manduction is not a thing of the senses or of reason, but supernatural, mysterious, and incomprehensible. The presence of Christ in the supper is not of a physical nature, nor earthly, nor Capernaitish, and yet it is most true.”
and
(referencing the following quote by Dr. William G.T. Shedd)
“…This doctrine of Consubstantiation, according to which there are two factors, viz.: the material bread and wine, and the immaterial or spiritual body of Christ united or consubstantiated in the consecrated sacramental symbols, does not differ in kind from the Popish doctrine of Transubstantiation, according to which there is, indeed, but one element in the consecrated symbols, but that is the very body and blood of Christ into which the bread and wine have been transmuted.” Nothing is more difficult, than for a thinker or believer of one school, fairly to represent the opinions and faith of thinkers and believers of another school. On the points on which Dr. Shedd here dwells, his Puritanical tone of mind renders it so difficult for him to enter into the very heart of the historical faith of the Church, that we can hardly blame him, that if it were his duty to attempt to present, in his own language, the views of the Lutheran Church, he has not done it very successfully. From the moment he abandons the Lutheran sense of terms, and reads into them a Puritan construction, from that moment he wanders from the facts, and unconsciously misrepresents.”

Jon
 
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