No early records?

[myfavoritmartin]

Did the early Christian church think that Peter had a successor who was in charge of the whole church? Did they think the Bishop of Rome specifically was that person?

No early writings show the Bishops of Rome referred to, or thought of, as head of the “Church”.

 

[FightingFat]

Did the early Christian church think that Peter had a successor who was in charge of the whole church? Did they think the Bishop of Rome specifically was that person?

No early writings show the Bishops of Rome referred to, or thought of, as head of the “Church”.

I think they do!

“The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” Pope Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101], 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

“Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate…” Pope Victor I [regn. A.D. 189-198], in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (A.D. 192).

“Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid…Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter.” Pope Stephen I [regn. A.D. 254-257], Firmilian to Cyprian, Epistle 74/75:17 (A.D. 256).

“I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter s, that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us.” Pope Julius [regn. A.D. 337-352], To the Eusebians, fragment in Athanasius’ Against the Arians, 2:35 (c. A.D. 345).

“Why then do you again ask me for the condemnation of Timotheus? Here, by the judgment of the apostolic see, in the presence of Peter, bishop of Alexandria, he was condemned, together with his teacher, Apollinarius, who will also in the day of judgment undergo due punishment and torment. But if he succeeds in persuading some less stable men, as though having some hope, after by his confession changing the true hope which is in Christ, with him shall likewise perish whoever of set purpose withstands the order of the Church. May God keep you sound, most honoured sons.” Pope Damasus [regn. A.D. 366-384], To the Eastern Bishops, fragment in Theodoret’s EH, 5:10 (c. A.D. 372).

“We bear the burdens of all who are heavy laden; nay, rather, the blessed apostle Peter bears them in us and protects and watches over us, his heirs, as we trust, in all the care of his ministry…Now let all your priests observe the rule here given, unless they wish to be plucked from the solid, apostolic rock upon which Christ built the universal Church…I think, dearest brother, disposed of all the questions which were contained in your letter of inquiry and have, I believe, returned adequate answers to each of the cases you reported by our son, the priest Basianus, to the Roman Church as to the head of your body…And whereas no priest of the Lord is free to be ignorant of the statutes of the Apostolic See and the venerable provisions of the canons.” Pope Sircius [regn. c A.D. 384-399], To Himerius, bishop of Tarragona (Spain), 1,3,20 (c. A.D. 392).

 

[FightingFat]

“Care shall not be lacking on my part to guard the faith of the Gospel as regards my peoples, and to visit by letter, as far as I am able, the parts of my body throughout the divers regions of the earth.” Pope Anastasius [regn. A.D. 399-401], Epistle 1 (c. A.D. 400).

“In making inquiry with respect to those things that should be treated … by bishops … as you have done, the example of ancient tradition … For you decided that it was proper to refer to our judgment, knowing what is due to the Apostolic See, since all we who are set in this place, desire to follow that Apostle from whom the very episcopate and whole authority of this named derived … that whatsoever is done, even though it be in distant provinces, should not be ended without being brought to the knowledge of this See, that by its authority the whole just pronouncement should be strengthened, and that from it all other Churches (like waters flowing from their natal source and flowing through the different regions of the world, the pure streams of one incorrupt head)…you also show your solicitude for the well being of all, and that you ask for a decree that shall profit all the Churches of the world at once.” Pope Innocent I [regn. A.D. 401-417], To the Council of Carthage, 1,2 (A.D. 417).

“It is therefore with due care and propriety that you consult the secrets of the Apostolic office that office, I mean, to which belongs, besides the things which are without, the care of all the Churches…Especially as often as a question of faith is discussed, I think that all our brothers and fellow bishops should refer to none other than to Peter, the author of their name and office.” Pope Innocent I [regn. A.D. 401-417], To the Council of Mileve, 2 (A.D. 417).

“Although the tradition of the fathers has attributed to the Apostolic See so great authority that none would dare to contest its judgment, and has preserved this ever in its canons and rules, and current ecclesiastical discipline in its laws still pays the reverence which it ought to the name of Peter…For he himself has care over all the churches, and above all of that which he sat…Since, then Peter is the head of so great authority, and has confirmed the suffrages of our forefathers since his time…and as bishops you are bound to know it; yet; though such was our authority that none could reconsider our decision.” Pope Zosimus [regn. A.D. 417-418], To the Council of Carthage (c. A.D. 418).

“For it has never been lawful to reconsider what has once been settled by the apostolic see.” Pope Boniface [regn. A.D. 418-422], To Rufus bishop of Thessalonica (c. A.D. 420).

“The universal ordering of the Church at its birth took its origin from the office of blessed Peter, in which is found both directing power and its supreme authority. From him as from a source, at the time when our religion was in the stage of growth, all churches received their common order. This much is shown by the injunctions of the council of Nicea, since it did not venture to make a decree in his regard, recognizing that nothing could be added to his dignity: in fact it knew that all had been assigned to him by the word of the Lord. So it is clear that this church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship.” Pope Boniface [regn. A.D. 418-422], To the bishops of Thessaly (c. A.D. 420).

“None has ever been so rash as to oppose the apostolic primacy, the judgment of which may not be revised; none rebels against it, unless he would judge in his turn.” Pope Boniface [regn A.D. 418-422], To Rufus and bishops of Macedonia (c. A.D. 420).

“Wherefore, assuming to yourself the authority of our see and using our stead and place with power, you will deliver this sentence with utmost severity.” Pope Celestine [regn A.D. 422-427], To Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 1 1 (A.D. 430).

“The blessed apostle Peter, in his successors, has handed down what he received. Who would be willing to separate himself from the doctrine of whom the Master himself instructed first among the apostles?” Pope Sixtus III, [regn A.D. 432-440], To John of Antioch (A.D. 433).

“But this mysterious function the Lord wished to be indeed the concern of all the apostles, but in such a way that He has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the Apostles: and from him as from the Head wishes His gifts to flow to all the body: so that any one who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D.440-461], Epistle 10 (A.D 445).

“And so he too rejoices over your good feeling and welcomes your respect for the Lord’s own institution as shown towards the partners of His honour, commending the well ordered love of the whole Church, which ever finds Peter in Peter’s See, and from affection for so great a shepherd grows not lukewarm even over so inferior a successor as myself.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D.440-461], Sermon 2 (A.D ante 461).

“‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and every tongue which confesses the Lord, accepts the instruction his voice conveys. This Faith conquers the devil, and breaks the bonds of his prisoners. It uproots us from this earth and plants us in heaven, and the gates of Hades cannot prevail against it. For with such solidity is it endued by God that the depravity of heretics cannot mar it nor the unbelief of the heathen overcome it.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D.440-461], Sermon 3:2-3 (A.D ante 461).

“Who does not cease to preside in his see, who will doubt that he rules in every part of the world.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D.440-461], Sermon 5 (A.D ante 461).

 

[FightingFat]

Also, I think Romans 1:1-10 gives a pretty good indication of the strength and fidelity of the Church which was, even in Paul’s times, established in Rome.

So the faith was planted: So it must be restored.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I think they do!

“The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” Pope Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101], 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

Authoritative? sure but there where many early letters with this same authority not from Rome. This seems simply like a comment to stay the course lest ye be in spiritual eternal danger, not a threat of condemnation to come from Clement.

“Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately** attempted **to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate…” Pope Victor I [regn. A.D. 189-198], in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (A.D. 192).

Key word there attempted…Whoopee i’m sure others recorded excommunication as well, does not establish itself as the head over the whole church…simply hearsay and presuppitory projection

“Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid…Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter.” Pope Stephen I [regn. A.D. 254-257], Firmilian to Cyprian, Epistle 74/75:17 (A.D. 256).

Great! but it has nothing to do with Rome…And have you seen Cyprians response?

"On which account a people obedient to the Lord’s precepts, and fearing God, ought to separate themselves from a sinful prelate, and not to associate themselves with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious priest, especially since they themselves have the power either of choosing worthy priests, or of rejecting unworthy ones…

For which reason you must diligently observe and keep the practice delivered from divine tradition and apostolic observance, which is also maintained among us, and almost throughout all the provinces; that for the proper celebration of ordinations all the neighbouring bishops of the same province should assemble with that people for which a prelate is ordained. And the bishop should be chosen in the presence of the people, who have most fully known the life of each one, and have looked into the doings of each one as respects his habitual conduct. And this also, we see, was done by you in the ordination of our colleague Sabinus; so that, by the suffrage of the whole brotherhood, and by the sentence of the bishops who had assembled in their presence, and who had written letters to you concerning him, the episcopate was conferred upon him, and hands were imposed on him in the place of Basilides." (67:3, 67:5)

The second citation above, from Letter 67, was written in the context of Cyprian opposing the Roman bishop Stephen in a dispute over church government. He criticizes Stephen for supporting the reappointment of a bishop who had been deposed by the people of the church:

“Neither can it rescind an ordination rightly perfected, that Basilides, after the detection of his crimes, and the baring of his conscience even by his own confession, went to Rome and deceived Stephen our colleague, placed at a distance, and ignorant of what had been done, and of the truth, to canvass that he might be replaced unjustly in the episcopate from which he had been righteously deposed.” (67:5)
**
So, not only does Cyprian think that the approval of laymen is necessary for the appointing of a church leader, and not only does he think that the approval of the bishop of Rome isn’t necessary, but he even thinks that laymen can appoint a bishop in opposition to the bishop of Rome.**

“I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter s, that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us.” Pope Julius [regn. A.D. 337-352], To the Eusebians, fragment in Athanasius’ Against the Arians, 2:35 (c. A.D. 345).

4th century, yeah it started developing by that point.
I won’t argue that…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Also, I think Romans 1:1-10 gives a pretty good indication of the strength and fidelity of the Church which was, even in Paul’s times, established in Rome.

So the faith was planted: So it must be restored.

Any mention that Peter is the head of Rome and that Rome is the head of the whole church there in scriptures?
NO!

 

[davidv]

Any mention that Peter is the head of Rome and that Rome is the head of the whole church there in scriptures?
NO!

False conclusion because it is a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[FightingFat]

Any mention that Peter is the head of Rome and that Rome is the head of the whole church there in scriptures?
NO!

Yes there is! Crikey, you don’t know you’re Scripture very well!

Anyway, I thought you wanted early church stuff? Why have you moved the goal posts?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Yes there is! Crikey, you don’t know you’re Scripture very well!

Anyway, I thought you wanted early church stuff? Why have you moved the goal posts?

Friend i know scripture very well.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

False conclusion because it is a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Your church declares that it has been known for all ages…
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm

from there I found this…
For “no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives” and presides and “exercises judgment in his successors” the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood

"Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church.
So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted,
and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received "
First Vatican Council
**
There is no room for development. According to this the first person to succeed Peter would have primacy over the whole church.**

 

[tomarin]

Did the early Christian church think that Peter had a successor who was in charge of the whole church? Did they think the Bishop of Rome specifically was that person?

No early writings show the Bishops of Rome referred to, or thought of, as head of the “Church”.

Even the Byzantines acknowledge that Peter’s See is meant to be “first among equals”. That suggests to me it is a very ancient idea among apostolic Christians, regardless of whether it was written down or not.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Even the Byzantines acknowledge that Peter’s See is meant to be “first among equals”. That suggests to me it is a very ancient idea among apostolic Christians, regardless of whether it was written down or not.

It says it has been known for all ages! we have libraries of writing from early Christianity, and yet nothing to support their claim.

 

[tomarin]

It says it has been known for all ages! we have libraries of writing from early Christianity, and yet nothing to support their claim.

There’s a lot that’s murky in early Christian history. As the poster above said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You seem to be looking for an instruction manual for Christianity. You’re right – there isn’t one, or rather there is but it is embodied in the early Christian communities themselves.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

There’s a lot that’s murky in early Christian history. As the poster above said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You seem to be looking for an instruction manual for Christianity. You’re right – there isn’t one, or rather there is but it is embodied in the early Christian communities themselves.

But this goes against the vaticans very claim that it has been known for all ages…We have hundreds of writings from the first couple centuries and yet we see NOTHING.

 

[tomarin]

But this goes against the vaticans very claim that it has been known for all ages…We have hundreds of writings from the first couple centuries and yet we see NOTHING.

It was known by the practicing Christians of the time. So what if they didn’t write it down? Most people were illiterate in the ancient world.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

It was known by the practicing Christians of the time. So what if they didn’t write it down? Most people were illiterate in the ancient world.

We have hundreds upon hundreds of writings…
You are going to bet your salvation on something not recorded in the libraries of early writings?
Seems a tad gutsy to me.

 

[davidv]

We have hundreds upon hundreds of writings…
You are going to bet your salvation on something not recorded in the libraries of early writings?
Seems a tad gutsy to me.

Not so. Jesus taught by word and deed, not by writing.

So, no I am not betting on what isn’t written. I am betting on the true Word of God, Jesus.

Please stop the strawmen. They paint you in a bad light.

 

[tomarin]

We have hundreds upon hundreds of writings…
You are going to bet your salvation on something not recorded in the libraries of early writings?
Seems a tad gutsy to me.

I’m betting the farm on historic Christianity which to me is has all the majesty and color of an enormous cloud-strewn mountain at dawn. I get a thrill when I go into an old-fashioned Catholic church and see the statues in alcoves with lit candles before them and a bench for kneeling. Evangelical churches on the other hand strike me as friendly, brightly-lit places that resemble movie theaters or conference halls. Give me the ancient, old-fashioned, tried-and-true anytime.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Not so. Jesus taught by word and deed, not by writing.

So, no I am not betting on what isn’t written. I am betting on the true Word of God, Jesus.

What’s written is at odds with you though.
You give no explanation why there is no record…hmmm:shrug:

Clement who was “said” to be one of the first “Popes” clearly viewed church structure as a plurality of elders and not monarchical.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I’m betting the farm on historic Christianity which to me is has all the majesty and color of an enormous cloud-strewn mountain at dawn. I get a thrill when I go into an old-fashioned Catholic church and see the statues in alcoves with lit candles before them and a bench for kneeling. Evangelical churches on the other hand strike me as friendly, brightly-lit places that resemble movie theaters or conference halls. Give me the ancient, old-fashioned, tried-and-true anytime.

It’s not historic if you have no record. That is the point of this thread.