No Eastern Rite Church when travelling?

[coptsoldier]

Gday all,

I have a question. I would prefer if those who answer have experience in the eastern Catholic church, or understand our canon laws.

I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church from the Coptic Orthodox Church. When God called me to Apostolic Christianity, he called me to the catholic church, however the liturgical abuse I saw 4 years ago pushed me over the edge and I joined the Coptic Orthodox Church instead. I never gave the eastern Catholic Churches a try. Around a month ago I came into communion with the Bishop of Rome, as I am convinced she holds the Apostolic Faith. My attitude towards Liturgical abuse hasnt changed, but It is not grounds to schism.

Twice a month I travel 2 hours away to my mother-in-laws for the weekend. Unfortunately there is no eastern catholic churches anywhere near there. There are 2 orthodox parishes. (Antiochian and greek orthodox). I went on saturday night to a local Roman Parish to fulfil sunday obligation. I was horrified. I felt I was back in my protestant days. The liturgical traditions were completely gone. They were singing random hymns instead of saying the prayers. It was aweful. I walked out shortly after the homily in tears.

I am committed to staying with the See of St peter. I am committed to being an eastern catholic. But when I attend liberal catholic parishes it tempts me to return to orthodoxy to avoid the nonsense that goes on.

What should I do? I am thinking for my own spiritual sanity, I need to either go to the Orthodox parish (and perhaps commune, the Antiochians are quite friendly to eastern catholics) or keep searching for a non-liberal Roman Rite. What would my fellow eastern Catholics do? Are their quotes from our Canon law regarding this?

P.S. Statements saying Orthodox arent in communion with rome and you are schisming are not helpful. You have to see this through the eyes of an orthodox convert, not a regular roman rite catholic. Its a completely different situation for us eastern Catholics.

Please pray for me, and may God bring unity back to his Church.

Joshua

 

[angell1]

Gday all,

I have a question. I would prefer if those who answer have experience in the eastern Catholic church, or understand our canon laws.

I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church from the Coptic Orthodox Church. When God called me to Apostolic Christianity, he called me to the catholic church, however the liturgical abuse I saw 4 years ago pushed me over the edge and I joined the Coptic Orthodox Church instead. I never gave the eastern Catholic Churches a try. Around a month ago I came into communion with the Bishop of Rome, as I am convinced she holds the Apostolic Faith. My attitude towards Liturgical abuse hasnt changed, but It is not grounds to schism.

Twice a month I travel 2 hours away to my mother-in-laws for the weekend. Unfortunately there is no eastern catholic churches anywhere near there. There are 2 orthodox parishes. (Antiochian and greek orthodox). I went on saturday night to a local Roman Parish to fulfil sunday obligation. I was horrified. I felt I was back in my protestant days. The liturgical traditions were completely gone. They were singing random hymns instead of saying the prayers. It was aweful. I walked out shortly after the homily in tears.

I am committed to staying with the See of St peter. I am committed to being an eastern catholic. But when I attend liberal catholic parishes it tempts me to return to orthodoxy to avoid the nonsense that goes on.

What should I do? I am thinking for my own spiritual sanity, I need to either go to the Orthodox parish (and perhaps commune, the Antiochians are quite friendly to eastern catholics) or keep searching for a non-liberal Roman Rite. What would my fellow eastern Catholics do? Are their quotes from our Canon law regarding this?

P.S. Statements saying Orthodox arent in communion with rome and you are schisming are not helpful. You have to see this through the eyes of an orthodox convert, not a regular roman rite catholic. Its a completely different situation for us eastern Catholics.

Please pray for me, and may God bring unity back to his Church.

Joshua

you could always try an extraordinary form of the mass if that’s more your cup of tea. and there are other eastern rights you could explore also.

by the way, just because you personally don’t like something, doesn’t mean that it constitutes liturgical abuse. the church is universal, therefore different ways of doing things that will help as many people as possible.

i’ts not about you, it’s about God. i kno you said not to say it but the plain truth is, orthodox are in schism, like or not.

 

[coptsoldier]

I would have no problems going to an ef latin mass. But there isnt any either.

 

[z_0101]

(Antiochian and greek orthodox). I went on Saturday night to a local Roman Parish to fulfil Sunday obligation. I was horrified. I felt I was back in my protestant days. The liturgical traditions were completely gone. They were singing random hymns instead of saying the prayers. It was awful. I walked out shortly after the homily in tears.

Joshua,
Please double check that the church you attended was actually in communion with the Holy Mother Church. When on vacation, we have ran into several that claimed to be “Catholic” only to find out that they were indeed, not.
I now, while on vacations, we make sure to attend Mass at a Catholic Cathedral when available, or I go the we use USCCB >About Us > Bishops and Dioceses > Diocesan Locator or use masstimes.org/ (call the Church directly as sometime the times listed are not the most recent schedule) to ensure that I am attending a Roman Catholic Church and not one of the versions that have broken away or use the charismatic or progressive formats which do not follow the GIRM as required.

Please keep in mind, one poorly ran church does not mean that all are ran in such a manner… and if the abuse is truly that bad you should first, respectfully, talk with the pastor of the church to find out what is really happening… you could have attended a youth “hour of power” type session that included the Mass (we have one such that follows the last Mass on Sundays at our Church - a lot of fun, and it brings in the Teens and young adults - that have usually already attended the regular Mass just an hour before hand!!). However, if this is truly the norm, then you should contact the Chancery Office of the Diocese and see if they might send someone to, sit in on the Mass.

 

[coptsoldier]

They are definately canonical. They are on the directory for the archdiocese of brisbane

 

[z_0101]

They are definately canonical. They are on the directory for the archdiocese of brisbane

oh… I really should learn to read the entire post (^_^)
I don’t think the US Bishops list is going to help you much in Brisbane
(blush)
I did alter my last post a tad… so I’ll stick with that last part about the one bad apple and talking with the pastor. I find these individuals are usually most generous with their time and understanding.

 

[coptsoldier]

The problem is more then that. Alot of what goes on the average roman rite catholic would not object to. But us easterners would find quite appauling. All I know is i felt extremely uncomfortable in that church, and will not be going back.

There are 2 other parishes on the sunshine coast, so I will be checking them out as well. I shouldn’t have to betray my conscience just to fulfil a sunday obligation. Keep in mind I am in no way whatsoever questioning the validity of the sacraments offered, because they are canonical priests.

 

[z_0101]

They still have to follow the General Instructions of the Roman Mass (GIRM). Perhaps if you Google thru you will find a copy. By understanding the instructions you might be able to come to terms with the Roman Rite.?

 

[Vico]

Gday all,

I have a question. I would prefer if those who answer have experience in the eastern Catholic church, or understand our canon laws.

I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church from the Coptic Orthodox Church. When God called me to Apostolic Christianity, he called me to the catholic church, however the liturgical abuse I saw 4 years ago pushed me over the edge and I joined the Coptic Orthodox Church instead. I never gave the eastern Catholic Churches a try. Around a month ago I came into communion with the Bishop of Rome, as I am convinced she holds the Apostolic Faith. My attitude towards Liturgical abuse hasnt changed, but It is not grounds to schism.

Twice a month I travel 2 hours away to my mother-in-laws for the weekend. Unfortunately there is no eastern catholic churches anywhere near there. There are 2 orthodox parishes. (Antiochian and greek orthodox). I went on saturday night to a local Roman Parish to fulfil sunday obligation. I was horrified. I felt I was back in my protestant days. The liturgical traditions were completely gone. They were singing random hymns instead of saying the prayers. It was aweful. I walked out shortly after the homily in tears.

I am committed to staying with the See of St peter. I am committed to being an eastern catholic. But when I attend liberal catholic parishes it tempts me to return to orthodoxy to avoid the nonsense that goes on.

What should I do? I am thinking for my own spiritual sanity, I need to either go to the Orthodox parish (and perhaps commune, the Antiochians are quite friendly to eastern catholics) or keep searching for a non-liberal Roman Rite. What would my fellow eastern Catholics do? Are their quotes from our Canon law regarding this?

P.S. Statements saying Orthodox arent in communion with rome and you are schisming are not helpful. You have to see this through the eyes of an orthodox convert, not a regular roman rite catholic. Its a completely different situation for us eastern Catholics.

Please pray for me, and may God bring unity back to his Church.

Joshua

Byzantine here. We are never required to attend a non-Catholic church, and should take care not express* indifferentism* through participation in non-Catholic liturgy. CCEO 6711. Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to Catholic Christian faithful, who, likewise, licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.

1. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

CCEO Canon 881

1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
   CIC Canon 1248 (also applies to eastern Catholics)
   1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.

CCEO Canon 883

1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.

 

[hembergb]

Hi mate! Great to see an Aussie around here.
Have you been to the Ukraine Catholic mass? We follow the liturgy of St John Chrysostom, which for me is beautiful. Parts of the mass are sung but they are liturgical prayers and sung in chant like tone. The liturgy would be similar in appearance and form to the Coptic Catholic mass and from the pictures I have seen on the net the dress and setting is also similar.

You can check out the website here: catholicukes.org.au/parishes/brisbane/

God Bless!

 

[coptsoldier]

Hi mate! Great to see an Aussie around here.
Have you been to the Ukraine Catholic mass? We follow the liturgy of St John Chrysostom, which for me is beautiful. Parts of the mass are sung but they are liturgical prayers and sung in chant like tone. The liturgy would be similar in appearance and form to the Coptic Catholic mass and from the pictures I have seen on the net the dress and setting is also similar.

You can check out the website here: catholicukes.org.au/parishes/brisbane/

God Bless!

I regularly attend that ukrainian parish

 

[anonymous_in_fl]

Just my personal opinion . . .
But if there is not a church in your rite close by when you travel, it seems that you would not be intentionally skipping out on attending your Sunday obligation.

We can only do the possible, not the impossible.

Maybe instead you could spend extra time in prayer and reflection on the mass readings for that day?

 

[twf]

Could you discuss the situation with your Ukrainian priest? In the Latin Church one’s canonical pastor can dispense the Sunday obligation for a grave reason - but I don’t know how that would work for a Copt. Is there even a Coptic Catholic priest in Australia? I am sure that he is in a better place to advise you than we are. I have heard that the state of the liturgy in parts of Australia is particularly bad, so I feel for you. Rest assured that even the OF can be celebrated beautifully with reverence and solemnity. In the US and Canada, at least in many dioceses, there has been much improvement in recent years- so there is always hope.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Well…welcome to the “modern” (OY VEY!!) Roman Catholic Church!

As an Eastern Rite Catholic you can receive communion from any of the 22 sui iuris Catholic Churches–even if you can’t stand their particular liturgical practices. The vast majority of Orthodox Churches (even the dear Antiochians !) will not and probably should not offer you the Holy Eucharist if you are not Orthodox. Remember, we are, very unfortunately, still not in communion (you know, as in, Holy Communion…) with them. If you are on death’s door and there is no Catholic priest to offer you the sacraments, an Orthodox priest, if available, could do so–if permitted by his bishop. Some bishops will permit it, and some won’t.

So…while traveling, you can either grin and bear it and attend the RC church you refer to, or you can attend and not receive Holy Communion if you are not in a state to do so, or you can not attend, and well…maybe you ought to discuss that option with your Ukrainian Catholic parish priest. His counsel on this matter is probably the most appropriate for you to seek and to follow.

Good luck!!

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Elizium23]

Just my personal opinion . . .
But if there is not a church in your rite close by when you travel, it seems that you would not be intentionally skipping out on attending your Sunday obligation.

We can only do the possible, not the impossible.

Incorrect. It is in fact possible for him to attend “Mass in a Catholic rite” nearby; he has the choice of three Latin parishes. Just because their choice of liturgy may seem tasteless to him does not mean it is necessarily illicit, and it is all but certainly valid and efficacious. In fact no real liturgical abuse has yet been recounted here.

Part of the beauty of our Church is her catholicity. As my mother says, “there is room for everyone” and it is rare to find a situation where it would be physically or morally impossible to attend Mass in a Catholic rite and fulfill one’s obligation.

As for the perceived problems in the Roman Rite, I would count it as a blessing that there is a choice of three parishes. Carefully evaluate each one and find which one offends the least. As a guest, you may not have much hope of changing the culture or lodging complaints, so you may have to simply offer it up in prayer.

I have a feeling that as young priests are taking charge in parishes they are helping to usher in the “Reform of the Reform” and liturgy is in a state of general improvement in recent days. Fifty years after Vatican II, it couldn’t get much worse so there is nowhere to go but up.

And don’t lose heart. Keep looking for Eastern Catholic solutions. You may find the beginnings of a parish community meeting in a house, or the remnants thereof. Perhaps you can be the catalyst to found a new community to evangelize the neighborhood.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Incorrect. It is in fact possible for him to attend “Mass in a Catholic rite” nearby; he has the choice of three Latin parishes. Just because their choice of liturgy may seem tasteless to him does not mean it is necessarily illicit, and it is all but certainly valid and efficacious. In fact no real liturgical abuse has yet been recounted here.

Part of the beauty of our Church is her catholicity. As my mother says, “there is room for everyone” and it is rare to find a situation where it would be physically or morally impossible to attend Mass in a Catholic rite and fulfill one’s obligation.

This is actually true. If one believes truly that he is in the Catholic Church, he should never disdain worshipping with those who are in communion with him and who hold their services licitly. Imagine, for example, if I were to travel somewhere where the only churches in town were a Russian one (as opposed to the Greek ones I know so well) and a Melkite one (in communion with Rome), it would not be right of me to disdain worshipping with my Russian coreligionists in favor of going to a Melkite Church, even though the liturgical praxis of the Melkites would be far more familiar to me.

 

[coptsoldier]

I have no problem with the traditional roman rite, just the modernism version. I regularly attend of and ef traditional latin masses, as well as NO masses prayed with respect and they are beautiful. This wasnt it though.

 

[angelic06]

I have no problem with the traditional roman rite, just the modernism version. I regularly attend of and ef traditional latin masses, as well as NO masses prayed with respect and they are beautiful. This wasnt it though.

What you can do is attend the least offensive Latin church on Saturday evening and receive Holy Communion, then offer satisfactory worship and prayers at the Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday without receiving Holy Communion, or if offered, at Matins. (Speaking for myself, I do not make it a habit of attending non-Catholic services, especially Eucharistic services, and have not done so since 2002, when I attended a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy as an option for a class assignment.)

I can sympathize with you as I grew up in the Latin Church. However, I am a participant on an online forum for the purpose of improving Roman Catholic sacred music, especially reviving Gregorian chant and choral polyphony as well as the chanted dialogue between priest and congregation, which gives a unifying force, if you will, to divine worship. If these ladies and gentleman are any indication of what is to come, the Latin rite will get better, and our grandchildren will not have to worry about where to worship when there is no Eastern Catholic or EF parish or community around when they travel.

 

[jimkhong]

This is actually true. If one believes truly that he is in the Catholic Church, he should never disdain worshipping with those who are in communion with him and who hold their services licitly. Imagine, for example, if I were to travel somewhere where the only churches in town were a Russian one (as opposed to the Greek ones I know so well) and a Melkite one (in communion with Rome), it would not be right of me to disdain worshipping with my Russian coreligionists in favor of going to a Melkite Church, even though the liturgical praxis of the Melkites would be far more familiar to me.

I fully agree you with this, Cavaradossi.

If one is a Coptic Catholic, you have to decide which of the two terms is the noun and which is the adjective. Are you a Catholic who happen to be Coptic or a Copt who happen to be Catholic? If the former, you will have to accept any other rite that one is not fully familiar with because the communion is the same. If the latter, would it be any surprise if yoru mother communion is not so welcoming?

Also, a Syriac church who welcomes a Catholic to communion sounds awfully suspicious to me. From what I know OO have even more closed communion than Catholics.

 

[Miserissima]

I have no problem with the traditional roman rite, just the modernism version. I regularly attend of and ef traditional latin masses, as well as NO masses prayed with respect and they are beautiful. This wasnt it though.

I know my post is laid bare to be unpopular, but here goes:

I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the parish.

I do not like to be blunt, but this is your cross to bear. Until you are fully conversant with the Roman Rite, you aren’t able to pick out the true abuses from what makes you genuinely uncomfortable – and that is understandable.

Understanding your Eastern perspective, the Ordinary Form is weird, free flowing, and not conducive to the Worship you know.

Take a moment to Google the “Outline of the Mass,” then you can see how the elements of the Mass are broken up by section, through a Western perspective. Simply put, it does not flow well. However, that does not invalidate the Sacrament.

Add a side note, hymns are supposed to*fit with the theme, not just the overall theme, not just introducing “here we are in the Liturgy.”