No-Fault Divorce, Standing for Justice

[Ammi]

Ammi:

And adultery is not a valid reason for civil divorce.

I think Jesus through the Gospel disagree on this.
Maybe not a civil divorce, that is a very new pagan thing in Christian history but a physical separation yes.
Or as some moralits had articulated in history a valid reason for the betrayed spouse to refuse the “debt” until he is able to forgive.

Refusing marital relations is not the same as filing divorce. And Jesus never says adultery is grounds for divorce.

 

[Rozellelily]

I would like there to be less divorce in society for other reasons such as irreconcilable differences, but personally I would not stay married to a man who was unfaithful.

I understand there are people (often women in these circumstances ) who do, but how often do we hear over and over of them staying together to “work on the marriage” only for the man to be unfaithful again a few years later and only after this (or perhaps a few more rounds) then does the partner finally have “wake up” call…
Perhaps some circumstance the unfaithful partner changes, but often not.

By other ways of unfaithful I assume you are referring to something like emotional unfaithfulness?
This to me is an American created new concept. For my understanding and culture, unfaithfulness is sexual infidelity/cheating and with this often comes the package of emotional feeling involvement too (at least on the woman’s side).

A married person forming an strong emotional connection with someone else may cause jealousy but it is only at the stage on sexual unfaithfulness that I personally consider it as infidelity.

 

[Ammi]

I would like there to be less divorce in society for other reasons such as irreconcilable differences, but personally I would not stay married to a man who was unfaithful.

First, I thank God for not having this approach with all of us. Second, if you are married, you cannot decide to not be married any longer. Your statement contradicts the permanence of Christian marriage, and is most likely an impediment to the Sacrament.

 

[Rozellelily]

I understand that this is the view of the Catholic Church.
At the same time I know of plenty of Catholics who are civilly divorced I’m sure there are ones who have had annulments who I don’t personally know.

Living in Australia and also from my background, most Catholics do not like divorce, and divorce is the last thing that Catholics want but I also know that many Catholics here will not accept unfaithfulness.

Life has to be talked about from a human perspective too and human feelings etc and “real life” and not just spiritual aspect and “religious rules” (I hope that makes sense)
Sometimes it seems that’s left out in these sorts of discussions on a CAF.

God forgives us, thankfully. I believe forgiveness is necessary when people are in these sad circumstances too, but forgiveness is different from accepting behaviour.

Something makes certain people feel being unfaithful is ok in the first place.
Unless that “something” is changed internally, why wouldn’t it happen again when opportunity arises?
I have never had a man be unfaithful to me, thanks to God but I wouldn’t accept it.
Things can be unreparable at that point.
I understand others can have a different view though.

Perhaps it’s most important to be compatible in values before marrying a person and to know a persons beliefs on infidelity, their character and maturity and be on the same page etc…

 

[Ammi]

I have never had a man be unfaithful to me, thanks to God but I wouldn’t accept it. Things can be unreparable at that point. I understand others can have a different view though…Perhaps it’s most important to be compatible in values before marrying a person and to know a persons beliefs on infidelity, their character and maturity and be on the same page etc…

Two people agreeing about marriage and what can dissolve a marriage does not make it a Sacrament. A Sacrament requires both spouses to intend what God intends marriage to be.

Adultery can be a sign of an invalid Sacrament. But there can also be complex reasons why one or both spouses resorted to adultery, and not a sign of an invalid Sacrament at all.

 

[Ammi]

The state of the marriage tribunals today are unhealthy.

Requiring civil divorce, even without Church approval in cases, is evidence of a faulty system. And that is what has happened; there is a system for couples to render their marriages Null that replaces “divorce”.

I have personally spoke with my own diocese Defender of the Bond. He encouraged divorce, and finding a new wife, without even hearing my wife say a word. I disagreed, and so did my former pastor. Furthermore, when I told him that I teach my daughter (9 yrs old) about the permanence of marriage, he told me, “You should not teach her that.”.

Defending the Sacrament these days will not be helped by the marriage tribunal. You are on your own, unless you have a special Catholic friend or clergy member. But that is the exception now. The system is oriented to find impediment with a wide interpretation of judgment.

I am now fully convinced, that the more one pursues justice regarding the Church’s moral guidance in marriage cases, the more you will find corruption and error. I’m not talking about formal Teaching, but the system and the individuals who control and maintain the system.

 

[Rozellelily]

I know many Catholics that have been married twice or have got civil divorce and then date other people.
Perhaps technically the Catholic Church would think they are living in “adultery” but ultimately only God (or perhaps priest through God) can know this.
Same for whether the married was Sacrament marriage in the first place.

This is not referring even to divorce due to fault/ infidelity but just divorce in general.
In Australia where I live, Catholic religion is becoming less & less popular. In my background Croatian, percentage of people identify as Catholic is
still 87 % but even there Catholic Church is becoming less influence/losing some popularity.
Reason why I mention this is because if Catholic Church wait/expect for “perfect people” the Church pew will be much more empty.

I can not speak for USA society, but here will not find many women (maybe men too?) who will accept to stay with man who is unfaithful. This is referring to people of faith or not of faith.
Some at beginning do, thinking can save the marriage, but change mind when cheating continue again.
It is unreasonable to expect infidelity to be tolerated - so what should all this people do who won’t accept it - not be Catholic anymore?

But there can also be complex reasons why one or both spouses resorted to adultery

It’s true there can be complex reasons but infidelity is never justifiable. There are other people who could be in those same circumstances and not cheating.
I’m not saying this to be judgmental, but just to gently suggest that maybe there is something the person who cheat say to themselves internally that make it feel ok what wouldn’t be ok to somebody else.

 

[Ammi]

I am not suggesting there is a justified reason to cheat. It is always wrong. No exceptions.

But it does NOT mean the Sacrament never existed. Or that an innocent spouse is free to divorce or remarry.

Or that there is necessarily an innocent spouse.

 

[Rozellelily]

Or that there is necessarily an innocent spouse

How can there be not innocent spouse?
Or do mean more situation that they were both unfaithful?

 

[Ammi]

Are you unaware of psychological abuse? Or emotional abuse? Or physical abuse? Passive aggressive behavior? A quarrelsome spouse?

Sexual infidelity is not the only form of not loving your spouse as you should.

 

[Anicette]

It is unreasonable to expect infidelity to be tolerated - so what should all this people do who won’t accept it - not be Catholic anymore?

Living in sin after leaving your sacramental marriage does not mean that people are not Catholics anymore, or should stop practicing.

They are excepted to repent and sin no more, not “leaving” the Church.

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to no innocent spouse referring directly to marriages with infidelity situation.

Physical abuse and “dysfunction type” relationships are bad too in marriage sure. The Catholic Church as far as I’m aware, doesn’t require a person to stay in a situation with physical abuse.

There are Catholic women who have remarried in the Catholic Church after first marriage which involved physical abuse.

Perhaps theres instances too where married couple can separate for a time and the person can be helped to change.

I think all depends on the effect on innocent spouse. Also, whether the person who is wife hitting or who is is unfaithful is doing it because of some “deep brain flaw”, or rather just doing it because of character flaw.
Maybe not all ,but a lot of people are unfaithful purely because of character flaw.
Have you ever seen the UK show like Ex on the beach or Love Island etc?
There are some people like this with mentality that cheating is just ok.

 

[Rozellelily]

I understand, but does this really happen often in reality practically though?
(Where people just stopping their “new relationship” that spontaneously.)

 

[Ammi]

I was saying, that just because one spouse has resorted, or fallen into sexual infidelity, it doesnt mean the other spouse is innocent of different types of unfaithfulness. I’m not saying it’s ever ok to commit adultery! It’s always wrong. But, there is a difference with someone falling into temptation when their spouse is behaving badly, and someone falling into temptation while their spouse is innocent.

 

[Anicette]

the new relationship after a marriage is very likely to end spontaneousely, practically.

But not for moral reasons, just a fact. And it has not been ended for morals reasons others relationships usually followed quickly.

 

[Rozellelily]

Personally I believe if you look at it as in “falling” into temptation then there will always be a problem.
In many marriages there will be happy times and struggle times. Though most couple not to the degree you are taking about (eg: physical or psychological abuse) but in every relationship there will usually be occasional arguments at some point.
Looking at it the way you look at it, can’t there then become potential to be unfaithful anytime there is difficulty?
What if more serious difficulty happens, (for example if the husband or wife becomes disabled)? This can cause stress, loneliness etc… Will the other person then resort to cheat?

No person is ever really totally innocent in a marriage (even if they feel this). Many people though dislike infidelity (including non faith people I know) for what it causes, and resolve to not be unfaithful in any circumstance.
Sexual infidelity is important because it is the traditional understanding of infidelity & what Jesus refers to when mentioned adultery.
Before there was American words like “emotional infidelity” etc, adultery was understood across many cultures and eras the same as physical cheating & as a deception/betrayal/secret.
It’s not just sex, many people can consider kissing another man/woman as degree of of cheating. Feelings come along too.

different types of unfaithfulness.

Sorry but I’m not really sure what the different other types that you mention look like?
I don’t think things like workaholism, emotional neglect, poor communication etc are unfaithfulness although they definitely can be immaturity etc.

I see it as American type psychologists just complicating matters trying to create new definitions of infidelity etc…
In most other cultures, it’s understood for what it is without words long before “so called experts” starting defining it.
Even if emotional infidelity exist for somebody and is real, isn’t it very possible it will eventually become physical anyway?

 

[Ammi]

What if more serious difficulty happens, (for example if the husband or wife becomes disabled)? This can cause stress, loneliness etc… Will the other person then resort to cheat

Being disabled is not a sin against your spouse and vows to love them.

Sorry but I’m not really sure what the different other types that you mention look like? I don’t think things like workaholism, emotional neglect, poor communication etc are unfaithfulness although they definitely can be immaturity etc.

I’m talking about abuse to a spouse. Yelling at them unjustly, demanding contraception, withholding sex, insulting their home, masturbation, receiving Communion in a state of sin, teaching the children things against the Catholic faith, irresponsible spending, etc. etc.

None of it justifies infidelity, but it doesnt mean there is always an “innocent” spouse. Some people are tempted for sexual gratification. Some people are tempted in other ways.

 

[Rozellelily]

I sympathize with you for these issues, but infidelity can not fix those “deep marital issues” (as you I’m sure already know).
I know it doesn’t really relate to the OP’s topic of no fault divorce, but I just would like to add that a spouse is not responsible for their wife/husband receiving communion in a state of sin.
While families should help each other “go to heaven”, by this Catholic teaching it does not mean it in a way of a spouse trying to control another etc.
Ultimately each individual is responsible for their own decision and God knows that persons level of understanding etc.

As for irresponsible spending…well majority of us women spend more then men naturally
Unless you are referring to being in some serious financial difficulty and perhaps escapism?

 

[Ammi]

I agree. And I must reiterate that I agree adultery does not help a situation, or can it ever be justified.

But many times adultery is viewed as the only significant fault in the breakdown of a relationship. When there are lots of ways to hurt, disrespect, and not love a spouse.

I’ve been told by priests that in general, women have less struggle going long periods without sex. Most men have a strong drive for sex. When a wife acts in a way that is very unattractive and a turn off (sinful behavior), it is difficult for many men to overcome temptation.

Again, even in those situations, the man is responsible for gravely sinning, if he fails to overcome.

 

[Rozellelily]

lots of ways to hurt

Absolutely

When a wife acts in a way that is very unattractive and a turn off (sinful behavior), it is difficult for many men to overcome temptation.

Im sure you can see the great irony though of a man doing something sinful (cheating) because he’s turned off by his wife’s own sinning.

women have less struggle going long periods without sex.

I think you are right that this is how it is for a lot of women. Not all women are “sexually indifferent” though.
If this was the case then men would only have option of other men to cheat with

Generally though, I see us women as needing more emotion focus then men.
Ie: some men may still feel fine to still have sex even if a couple is arguing recently, but a lot of women feel turned off to sleep with someone there isn’t harmony and good relationship with & need the “discord” addressed first.
I think we have less “ability” to compartmentalise sex, emotions, romance etc

Personally I think a lot of the things you mentioned could have been solved much earlier on with better communication. I think communication breakdown is part of the issue experienced and it’s disappointing that nobody offered yourself/wife help with non reactive communication.
Without this, instead it sort of “snowballs” on and on to become couples yelling about things like spending or religious differences instead of clear communication, finding fault with the other etc and probably becomes hard to find harmony at this stage…