No, God Can Not Lie, as He Is Truth Itself

[ready]

In one thread I participated in someone asked me if God can lie. I, suspecting I was not conversing with a “believer,” said that God could do anything that he wanted to - and that it still wouldn’t negate who God is: Love and Truth. It is clear to me, however, that even though someone like a non-believer may find that our Lord “lies” (in the bible, for example) I’d have to say that our Lord actually lying Himself is an impossibility and would negate who God is: the Truth itself. God may allow some people to be deluded into believing in certain lies or untruths, but He Himself is not lying by doing so, he is just permitting delusion for His greater purpose…to be accomplished in the person or in others - or even in both the person and others at the same time.
Any responses?

 

[TheWhim]

I think you will have a hard time finding anybody here who would disagree with your assertions. Indeed, the whole question had been dealt with by and large in the time, stretching both forwards and backwards, surrounding the Reformation. Duns Scotus and William Ockham drew quite near to this doctrine of absolute omnipotence. It was one of them(I don’t remember whom) who ventured to declare: if God would decide tomorrow that murder was permitted henceforth, it wouldn’t be a sin anymore. However, such conclusions were entirely theoretical and should perhaps rather be regarded as thought-plays, as attempts to assume widespread possibilities and outreach the boundaries of human reason. I don’t believe neither of them was so serious about this topic as some make it appear they were.

But the thinking that Luther introduced into theology took absolute divine omnipotence quite literally. He used to talk about the hidden God, deus absconditus. Faith only teached us the revelead God, loving humanity, never changing, all-caring. But God was double-faced: behind the friendly apparence lingered a second, inscrutable mien. In his worst moments Luther went so far as to virtually equate God and the devil or at least to assume that evil was a necessary part of the world. (No wonder one used to call Lutherans the ‘new Manicheaans’; we should keep in mind that Luther preached that nature was utterly perverted and only capable to sin if not rescued by grace - Gnostic dualism shines through here).

Of course, Calvin was infected with the same strange idea. I remember Chesterton once saying that in Calvinism the way to hell may be paced with good intentions. This, of course, is no theologically sound statement but well expresses our deep, natural misgivings about the idea of God who punishes some with hell and rewards others with heaven just according to his own fancy - his own whim. As concerns human salvation, God’s will isn’t bound to anything anymore in Calvinism.

Aquinas discussed your problem, I believe, at some length. His solution ultimately ran down to this: no omnipotent being will contradict itself.

 

[ready]

Dear TheWhim,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the matter.

Peace!

ready

 

[rossum]

In one thread I participated in someone asked me if God can lie. I, suspecting I was not conversing with a “believer,” said that God could do anything that he wanted to - and that it still wouldn’t negate who God is: Love and Truth.

God can decieve: 2 Thessalonians 11 “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false”. How does making someone believe what is false differ from lying?

rossum

 

[ready]

God can decieve: 2 Thessalonians 11 “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false”. How does making someone believe what is false differ from lying?

rossum

Think on this:

If I let my brother think he was a good guy, even though I knew he wasn’t, would it be me who was lying or my brother who was deceiving himself? I would think I would be the one who had nothing to do with the lying, but rather my brother, who is the sole one involved with deceit involving self.

 

[Leela]

Think on this:

If I let my brother think he was a good guy, even though I knew he wasn’t, would it be me who was lying or my brother who was deceiving himself? I would think I would be the one who had nothing to do with the lying, but rather my brother, who is the sole one involved with deceit involving self.

Sure, but that is nothing like what the quote says. God is using his special God powers to actively delude people:

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[passus]

God can decieve: 2 Thessalonians 11 “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false”. How does making someone believe what is false differ from lying?

rossum

God does not deceive anybody, but rather, He allows people to deceive themselves. It’s a matter of what translation you’re looking at; sometimes you’ll see the particular passage rendered as “God shall send them the operation of error” as it is in the Douay-Rheims.

Could someone please check up on the Greek?

 

[ready]

Sure, but that is nothing like what the quote says. God is using his special God powers to actively delude people:

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I still think my example applies. The fact that “all deceivableness of unrighteousness” was in those people, and that God will consume them with the brightness of His coming shows me that they are the ones who brought such punishment upon themselves by a God of Truth (brightness.) Because our God is not a God of darkness, He does not lie, he just lets the deceitful unrighteous evildoers suffer from the due punishment of their own crimes. I don’t equivocate the word lie with the phrase “send them delusion.”

 

[morgantj]

God can decieve: 2 Thessalonians 11 “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false”.
rossum

He makes them believe what is false. Yea, that is lying.

 

[ready]

He makes them believe what is false. Yea, that is lying.

He doesn’t make them believe what is false. God lets men of perverse ways become proud by their own reasonings/doings and lose sight of truth. Is it God who makes them lose sight of truth and become deluded into thinking untruths? or is it they who could care less for truth in the first place and God allows delusion to ensue?

 

[Leela]

He doesn’t make them believe what is false. God lets men of perverse ways become proud by their own doings and lose sight of truth. Is it God who makes them lose sight of truth and become deluded into thinking untruths? or is it they who could care less for truth in the first place and God allows delusion to ensue?

It doesn’t say that God will allow them to be deluded, it says, “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”

 

[ready]

It doesn’t say that God will allow them to be deluded, it says, “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”

But that does not mean that God lied. My letting you believe a lie is not the same thing as myself telling a lie. I gave an example of this in an earlier post.

 

[morgantj]

But that does not mean that God lied. My letting you believe a lie is not the same thing as myself telling a lie. I gave an example of this in an earlier post.

If god cannot lie then god is not omnipotent.

 

[aball1035]

This guy I know doesn’t believe in God because he doesn’t believe that God’s all-powerful. He gave the example that God can’t make a 4 sided triangle, so there’s some things He can’t do. Any help?

 

[passus]

If god cannot lie then god is not omnipotent.

This guy I know doesn’t believe in God because he doesn’t believe that God’s all-powerful. He gave the example that God can’t make a 4 sided triangle, so there’s some things He can’t do. Any help?

1a. An entirely truthful being cannot tell a lie.
1b. A four-sided triangle does not exist. The language is a direct contradiction in terms.

1. It is true that God does act aside from His own logic.
2. To say that God cannot commit a logical error does not detract from His omnipotence but strengthens it, as a being which contradicts itself would not be unchanging, would not exist of pure act, and consequently, could not possibly be God.
3. Both proposed situations are, themselves, contradictions in logic. They do not exist and could never exist in any logical universe.
4. Quite literally, “*nothing *is impossible with God.”

 

[rossum]

If I let my brother think he was a good guy, even though I knew he wasn’t, would it be me who was lying or my brother who was deceiving himself? I would think I would be the one who had nothing to do with the lying, but rather my brother, who is the sole one involved with deceit involving self.

Did you “send” that your brother was a good guy? The word “send” implies some action on the part of God in this, not merely passive acceptance of someone else’s error.

If God is actively sending deceit then to me that seems the same as lying.

rossum

 

[buffalo]

God sends them delusion means he allows them to wander, but the love of truth will keep them clear minded.

Again, the lack of understanding is clear.

 

[morgantj]

An entirely truthful being cannot tell a lie.

Awesome! I can tell a lie but god can’t! God is not omnipotent.

1. It is true that God does act aside from His own logic.

uh oh!

1. Both proposed situations are, themselves, contradictions in logic. They do not exist and could never exist in any logical universe.

Lieing is a contradiction in logic?

1. Quite literally, “*nothing *is impossible with God.”

God is unable to tell a lie, this is something impossible for god according to you.

 

[morgantj]

God sends them delusion means he allows them to wander, but the love of truth will keep them clear minded.

Again, the lack of understanding is clear.

Eh? A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception.

It is not defined as “allow one to wander.”

So god is deceiving them, he is lying. It is clear.

 

[rossum]

Awesome! I can tell a lie but god can’t! God is not omnipotent.

There are many things that God cannot do. Whenever a word is used to describe God it stops God from doing things.

God is omniscient, so God can never learn anything new - He already knew it.

God is omnipresent so He can never move - He can never leave the starting point and He is already present at the destination.

There are lots of things that we can do that God cannot.

rossum