No holy water

[THurifer2]

. You are actually one of the few I’ve ever had a problem with.

Well then,

I certainly not accuse you of not being passionate about your job.
You have made that obvioius on this forum.

I don’t want to analyze you but I gather that you do a pretty good job at your parish and I am certain that you are a benefit.

Oh by the way if I indicated that I was a deacon I am sorry. I am not a deacon yet. My diocesan formation lasts a total of 7 years. I am only into the 3rd year.

Olive branch?

 

[Phemie]

Again, no mention of holy water stoops at the doors. That is all I can find that seems relevant.

tee

I also looked yesterday to see what document supports this. I found nothing in Paschales Solemnitatis nor in the Sacramentary. The only mention I found was in the ORDO which says that the fonts are to be emptied after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, around the same time as you strip the altar and cover the crosses or remove them from the church.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Well then,

I certainly not accuse you of not being passionate about your job.
You have made that obvioius on this forum.

Thank you. It certainly IS my life’s work.

I don’t want to analyze you but I gather that you do a pretty good job at your parish and I am certain that you are a benefit.

Thank you once again. I do my best.

Oh by the way if I indicated that I was a deacon I am sorry. I am not a deacon yet. My mistake. I thought you had already been ordained. My diocesan formation lasts a total of 7 years. I am only into the 3rd year. Seven years? That is certinaly more extensive than our program - although I shouldn’t speak too soon. Ours very well may come to be seven years. They are in the middle of a complete overhaul and “re-do” of the program because of new national diaconate standards and our new bishop.

Olive branch? Of course. We are all on the same team.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I also looked yesterday to see what document supports this. I found nothing in Paschales Solemnitatis nor in the Sacramentary. The only mention I found was in the ORDO which says that the fonts are to be emptied after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, around the same time as you strip the altar and cover the crosses or remove them from the church.

If the fonts are to be emptied, that certainly suggests - perhaps even extremely STRONGLY suggests- that the fonts at the doors would be emptied as well. It certainly would be correctly and wisely interpreted that way.

 

[THurifer2]

I also looked yesterday to see what document supports this. I found nothing in Paschales Solemnitatis nor in the Sacramentary. The only mention I found was in the ORDO which says that the fonts are to be emptied after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, around the same time as you strip the altar and cover the crosses or remove them from the church.

After the mass of the Lord’s supper…Yes…prior to that? NO

 

[Phemie]

If the fonts are to be emptied, that certainly suggests - perhaps even extremely STRONGLY suggests- that the fonts at the doors would be emptied as well. It certainly would be correctly and wisely interpreted that way.

I’m not disputing that, I just haven’t found any document that says the baptismal font has to be emptied. OK, yes, it’s common sense since you have the blessing of the water at the Vigil, but nowhere, in any document that I can put my hands on does it say “Empty the Baptismal Font & the Holy Water fonts at the entrances to the church.”

You’d think that it would be in Paschales Solemnitatis which details just about everything else, but no, no mention of it there (although it mentions covering/removing crosses & stripping the altar after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper). It’s not in the Sacramentary, either. Everything I’ve read says “It’s customary”, even that letter from the CDW saying “Don’t remove the Holy Hater before Holy Thursday.”

 

[Scottgun]

The emptying of fonts for all of Lent is a particularly galling offense because it reduces sacramentals to mere symbols (in my experience, the fonts were filled with sand. You know, the desert thing) --all part of a likely unintentional but insidious movement toward demystification as if someone was taking direction from a liturgy book written by Shelby Spong. They are not Sacraments, but, especially holy water, they are a source of grace by virtue of the intercession of the Church and no one should be imposing a fast on them.

If it is going on in your parish, politely inform the pastor and offer documentation. If no results, contact the bishop. If the bishop green lights the practice, contact the papal nuncio.

 

[ElizabethPH]

A church I went to used to plant cacti in the holy water fonts during Lent.

Let me tell you, that was a hurtful reminder on the first Sunday of Lent.

Ouch!

Empty holy water fonts happened last year; and years past at my parish. This year we have holy water! I think perhaps enough people saying something about it made the change…that and a new priest.

 

[Scottgun]

Ouch!

Empty holy water fonts happened last year; and years past at my parish. This year we have holy water! I think perhaps enough people saying something about it made the change…that and a new priest.

’
Small world. That is exactly what happened in my parish. Seasons of empty fonts. Last season the water was back. There seems to be a wider responding to the Clue Phone these days.

 

[Phemie]

The emptying of fonts for all of Lent is a particularly galling offense because it reduces sacramentals to mere symbols (in my experience, the fonts were filled with sand. You know, the desert thing) --all part of a likely unintentional but insidious movement toward demystification as if someone was taking direction from a liturgy book written by Shelby Spong.

More likely a book called “The Three Days: Parish Prayer in the Paschal Triduum” by Gabe Huck.

I have it in my reference library and was looking at it today to see if there was a reference there to emptying the fonts. In a segment on Holy Thursday he puts forth the notion that all holy images, crosses and the Holy Water should have been put away long before Holy Thursday (ie after Mass on Shrove Tuesday) and that the only thing left to do after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper is strip the altar. I know that this book is the Triduum bible in many a parish.

Some priests believe they know better than the CDW. When I showed one that letter from the CDW on precisely this topic he told me he didn’t care he was still putting sand in the Fonts at the Mission where he is the administrator.

He was also quite proud of the year that his altar of repose was a cave/tomb in spite of the fact that that is specifically forbidden by Paschales Solemnitatis.

 

[jmcrae]

More likely a book called “The Three Days: Parish Prayer in the Paschal Triduum” by Gabe Huck.

I don’t know why, but all of a sudden, my favourite line in the Old Testament jumped into my mind, just then.

I Samuel 17:26.

 

[Scottgun]

More likely a book called “The Three Days: Parish Prayer in the Paschal Triduum” by Gabe Huck.

Thanks. Another clue to the puzzle. Is it an otherwise good book and just off the map on this one point, or is the whole book a manual of abuse?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Thanks. Another clue to the puzzle. Is it an otherwise good book and just off the map on this one point, or is the whole book a manual of abuse?

The book is very much an academic philosophical study of worship as it relates to the Paschal Triduum. Much as ANY academic piece of work, it simply puts forth ideas and discussion points relating to the subject at hand. And, again, as with any any academic piece of work, the ideas put forth must be tested in light of what the Church has said and is saying.

The book is not to be discarded merely because the author (many years ago, I believe) brings ideas and notions to light that have since been clarified by Vatican offices as being off base or not allowable.

 

[Scottgun]

The book is very much an academic philosophical study of worship as it relates to the Paschal Triduum. Much as ANY academic piece of work, it simply puts forth ideas and discussion points relating to the subject at hand. And, again, as with any any academic piece of work, the ideas put forth must be tested in light of what the Church has said and is saying.

The book is not to be discarded merely because the author (many years ago, I believe) brings ideas and notions to light that have since been clarified by Vatican offices as being off base or not allowable.

Thanks. I had a very unfortunate experience in RCIA when I converted (dissenting instructor with some very fishy applications of the various rites and formation). It was clear that some offbeat program was being used, and I’ve been keeping my eyes open to pin down the source. So by your account it sounds like the two things are unrelated or only indirectly related.

 

[Phemie]

The book is very much an academic philosophical study of worship as it relates to the Paschal Triduum. Much as ANY academic piece of work, it simply puts forth ideas and discussion points relating to the subject at hand. And, again, as with any any academic piece of work, the ideas put forth must be tested in light of what the Church has said and is saying.

The book is not to be discarded merely because the author (many years ago, I believe) brings ideas and notions to light that have since been clarified by Vatican offices as being off base or not allowable.

Huck’s book was published in 1992.

I haven’t read the whole thing, only checked it to see if it offered a reference for emptying the fonts. I just remembered that it was touted as the be all and end all of books on the Triduum by someone who was on the liturgy committee a few years ago.

The problem with books like these is that they are treated as how-to manuals and the things read in them become SOPs in some parishes. Then you run into the people involved in liturgy in those parishes at university while taking liturgy courses and they proclaim how well things are being done in their parishes. If you don’t know better or don’t know how to evaluate these things they get taken back to your own parish as ‘the good things that are happening in parish X’.

The last time I attended classes there was one guy there who was raving about how well they did things in his parish. The sand in the Font thing was mentioned as being particularly appropriate (3 years after the CDW’s ruling) and then he proceeded to tell everyone how beautiful their last Vigil had been when they’d used the rejected version of the Exsultet that was oh, so wonderful – I know that I’ve heard that Exsultet read and it was a gag-worthy moment.

That’s how things like this proliferate.