No hope for Trindentine mass?

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The synod’s position was clear: most of the bishops do not want to return to the Old Mass and a significant number of them would even like to shelve the use of Latin.
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Between the negative response bishops displayed towards the tridentine mass at the synod, and B16’s current silence on the “reform of the reform”, it appears that the tridentine mass is written off to die a slow death and that our Latin traditions will be lost by in large.

Why hasn’t the pope focused his efforts to reform or improve the celebration of the Roman Rite? Especially those reforms outlined in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”?
 
Based mainly on his positions espoused in The Spirit of the Liturgy, I find it hard to believe that Benedict would be willing to do nothing at all about the current state of liturgical praxis. However, I get the impression that he dislikes imposition nearly as much as JPII did, and was probably hoping that the bishops would act collegially in their synod to do something, as some of them did bring up suggestions consonant with his views on liturgy. While I hope that the synod’s lack of action will not keep him from now acting on his own, I must agree that given the lack of any change since April the prospects of liturgical reform look rather dim. One indiciator which I have no knowledge of but which should be useful, though, is how Benedict has been conducting his own Masses since his election. Any move of his will be preceded, I think, by practicing what he is going to preach.
 
oat soda:
Why hasn’t the pope focused his efforts to reform or improve the celebration of the Roman Rite? Especially those reforms outlined in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”?
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I think if the reforms listed in “The Spirit of the Liturgy” were implemented we could have an NO mass just as reverent as a TLM (especially if it is celebrated ad orientum ).
 
While I hope that the synod’s lack of action will not keep him from now acting on his own, I must agree that given the lack of any change since April the prospects of liturgical reform look rather dim.
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the reason we are having this problem is because of sacrosanctum concilium. it is extremely open to interpretation and purposely leaves much room for variation and local adaption.

it seems that the fathers of VII wanted to distance themselves from the strict rubicism of the tridentine mass and instead went to the other extreme.

even JPII was very lax on dissent and liturgical experimentation. the problem is that if nothing matters or if we don’t take things too seriously in mass and let things go awry, why would be we take catholic doctrine seriously? i think VII effectively exasterbated problems of relativity and secularism in the church and in the world.
 
I guess I’m out of the loop on this one…

Tridentine Masses can be held, and are being held, in various diocese, right?

There is no threat to removing that privilege, is there?

So what’s with the ‘no hope’ concern?
Who says it’s going to die a slow death?
Why would that happen so long as there are bishops and priests open to providing the Tridentine Mass?
 
There was a rumor several weeks ago that there would be some announcement on November 19th.
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
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YinYangMom:
I guess I’m out of the loop on this one…

Tridentine Masses can be held, and are being held, in various diocese, right?

There is no threat to removing that privilege, is there?

So what’s with the ‘no hope’ concern?
Who says it’s going to die a slow death?
Why would that happen so long as there are bishops and priests open to providing the Tridentine Mass?
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All the priests who celebrate indult Masses in my former diocese are over 70. Who, might I ask, will minister to those communities in 10 or 20 years? The concern is that most bishops who allow the Tridentine do just that - they allow it, tolerate it, but they don’t promote it. Other than a handful of small orders, priests are not taught to celebrate the traditional Mass. Without positive action by the bishops to ensure the continuation of the Tridentine Mass, it will die. Even if there are many Catholics asking for its use.

PS - Positive action could be allowing a traditional order to operate within one’s diocese, for example. The bishop does not have to form any clerics but the Mass is still available. I think the growth of such orders is going to be pivotal as the ranks of priests who were formed in the old rite become diminished.
 
Andreas Hofer:
All the priests who celebrate indult Masses in my former diocese are over 70. Who, might I ask, will minister to those communities in 10 or 20 years? The concern is that most bishops who allow the Tridentine do just that - they allow it, tolerate it, but they don’t promote it. Other than a handful of small orders, priests are not taught to celebrate the traditional Mass. Without positive action by the bishops to ensure the continuation of the Tridentine Mass, it will die. Even if there are many Catholics asking for its use.

PS - Positive action could be allowing a traditional order to operate within one’s diocese, for example. The bishop does not have to form any clerics but the Mass is still available. I think the growth of such orders is going to be pivotal as the ranks of priests who were formed in the old rite become diminished.
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Oh, ok. Thanks for the clarification.
I still don’t see how it’s hopeless though.
It’s such a beautiful service and I trust God will work through the Holy Spirit as He always does to preserve those Traditions which are according to His will.

I would not give up on the younger generation of priests here. I know several who truly value and appreciate the Latin Mass. Granted, I don’t know if they know how to conduct one themselves, but perhaps they will be moved to learn from one of the older priests.

And there are still the bishops who aren’t just keeping the peace. Surely some of them really want to keep the Mass alive and will teach those around him to carry the torch.
 
Andreas Hofer:
All the priests who celebrate indult Masses in my former diocese are over 70. Who, might I ask, will minister to those communities in 10 or 20 years? The concern is that most bishops who allow the Tridentine do just that - they allow it, tolerate it, but they don’t promote it. Other than a handful of small orders, priests are not taught to celebrate the traditional Mass. Without positive action by the bishops to ensure the continuation of the Tridentine Mass, it will die. Even if there are many Catholics asking for its use.

PS - Positive action could be allowing a traditional order to operate within one’s diocese, for example. The bishop does not have to form any clerics but the Mass is still available. I think the growth of such orders is going to be pivotal as the ranks of priests who were formed in the old rite become diminished.
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The Norbertine Priests who celebrate the indult here in San Diego are all young, probably early to late thirties. Hopefully there are enough of the younger guys around to keep it going. I really don’t see a lot of hopr for more training in it at the seminaries especially here in the U.S.
 
So what’s with the ‘no hope’ concern?
Who says it’s going to die a slow death?
Why would that happen so long as there are bishops and priests open to providing the Tridentine Mass?
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what devotees to the trindentine mass want is it to be treated as a fully legitimate mass of the latin rite so that any priest would have permission to celebrate it.

as a result, the normative mass may be reformed so that it conforms more closely to its predecessor which it should have organically grew out of. as of now, we have two distinct rites which usually reflect different asthetics and ethos.
 
even JPII was very lax on dissent and liturgical experimentation. the problem is that if nothing matters or if we don’t take things too seriously in mass and let things go awry, why would be we take catholic doctrine seriously? i think VII effectively exasterbated problems of relativity and secularism in the church and in the world.
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Except when it came to ex-communicating traditionalists…like the SSPX.

Perhaps I get to worked up, best to leave it be I suppose… 😦
 
Servus Pio XII:
Except when it came to ex-communicating traditionalists…like the SSPX.

Perhaps I get to worked up, best to leave it be I suppose… 😦
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Come now, Servus. If some liberal American bishop decided to consecrate 4 new bishops without Rome’s approval, you’d be surprised how quick the hammer would come down.

And the rest of you…really! Give the Pope some time. He’s only been in office a little over 6 months. He might have a few other things on his plate besides the traditional Mass.

Just a guess… 👋
 
That article is kind of disturbing. The Latin Mass differs from the normative rite namely because of it’s reverence. Seeing that the worlds bishops are so commited to never moving in that direction and re-incorporating other essential elements of the liturgy which were abandoned after the council is very disconcerting.

What does that mean when the world’s bishops are so firmly against reverence, Latin, and a less anthropocentric liturgy? I would hate to think this attitude characterizes other views they have of God and the Church.
 
I was struck by Pope Benedict’s humility when he was elected. Humility is a good thing, but I seemed to get the impression that he thought he wasn’t the best man for the job. Unless he thinks he’s capable, he will have a hard time puting his fist down. Just a thought.

I think a lot of these problems might someday be fixed when we have a pope who isn’t afraid to wear a tiara and have a few more candles around his casket.
 
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mcliffor:
That article is kind of disturbing. The Latin Mass differs from the normative rite namely because of it’s reverence. Seeing that the worlds bishops are so commited to never moving in that direction and re-incorporating other essential elements of the liturgy which were abandoned after the council is very disconcerting.

What does that mean when the world’s bishops are so firmly against reverence, Latin, and a less anthropocentric liturgy? I would hate to think this attitude characterizes other views they have of God and the Church.
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I wouldn’t give it much thought. Most of the world’s bishops are graybeards who came of age liturgically during the swingin’ 60s and 70s. They have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo because they believe firmly that the change in liturgical discipline was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

While that might be a questionable stance theologically, it’s hard to argue with someone’s heart. No matter what evidence they see, it’s impossible to analyze it dispassionately when you firmly believe you’re on the side of the Spirit. So, until these boys start retiring and dying off, as they’re doing in ever growing numbers, they’ll continue to cling to their entrenched positions and resist any true “reform of the reform.”

But, we have some good young bishops on the way. In my diocese, my bishop was ordained in the late 70’s. He’s never said anything but the new Mass. But he’s making it a point to learn the traditional Mass so he can offer it for our Latin Mass Community on occasion. Many of the graybeards, who wouldn’t have to “learn” it, because they already know it, wouldn’t say the traditional Mass for anything.

That’s the difference. The younger bishops won’t be hamstrung by their prejudices against the traditional Mass and will actually be willing to acknowledge that some good could come from it and might be willing to learn something from our precious spiritual patrimony.
 
Reading this is quite disturbing for me. Though, i agree Dr. Bombay, we must give B16 time to work his stuff.

I also agree that younger people are going to want to reform the reform. I am one of them. I hope to become an FSSP priest, and to encourage others to end Australia’a depravity of the Tridentine Mass.
 
Servus Pio XII wrote:
Except when it came to ex-communicating traditionalists…like the SSPX.
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This is fundamentally illogical and false.

Just as God does NOT condemn anyone to Hell - the individual has made that choice itself - so too, neither the Pope nor the Church has excommunicated the Lefebvrites (and other generally unrepentent mortal sinners): they have self-excommunicated themselves latae sentententiae. In his Ecclesiae dei adflicta Pope John Paul announced the fact and effect of their positive action.
 
mcliffor wrote:
The Latin Mass differs from the normative rite namely because of it’s reverence.
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True. However, we must accept that it IS the SAME Mass as the prior Liturgy and the Liturgies all ALL Rites going back to and including the Last Supper. The Pauline Liturgy IS a propitiary Sacrifice and is a “true and proper Sacrifice”.
Seeing that the worlds bishops are so commited to never moving in that direction and re-incorporating other essential elements of the liturgy which were abandoned after the council is very disconcerting.
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What does that mean when the world’s bishops are so firmly against reverence, Latin, and a less anthropocentric liturgy? I would hate to think this attitude characterizes other views they have of God and the Church.
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While it is eminently more “preferable” that a bishop and/or priest be a pious and holy person who discharges his ministry in a reverential manner - this is NOT what the Church requires (or has ever required) of Her bishops and priests. So long as they possess valid Orders and exercize their ministeries using the proper Form and Matter for the Sacraments and have the Intent to DO as the the Church required to be done - then, even if the minister is a craven unbeliever, THAT is all the Church requires.

Someone else has pointed out in another thread that just about every Ecumenical Council has taken up to 100 years to fully and properly implement the Council’s decisions; perhaps things will get better in about another half-century? http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif
 
it appears that the tridentine mass is written off to die a slow death
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You’re probably right on this point.

The older tridentine mass folk will die off. The younger ones are most likely to get married, most often with mainstream Catholics, and end up getting reintergrated with the mainstream rite.

In a situation similar to the Greek Catholic rites in the US, the facts that a minority rite just can’t stand up to the demographics over time, unless the tridentine rite (or the Greek Catholics) actually promote themselves among the mainstream, long term shriveling is inevitable.

Of course promotion of the tridentine rite is possible, but extraordinarily unlikely to be tolerated, as it would take resources away from missionary and other outreach efforts, just to try and convince Catholics to switch from one to another equally valid rites. Not very good stewardship of resources and efforts, and very divisive.
 
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