No hope for Trindentine mass?

[InnocentIII]

mcliffor:

That article is kind of disturbing. The Latin Mass differs from the normative rite namely because of it’s reverence. Seeing that the worlds bishops are so commited to never moving in that direction and re-incorporating other essential elements of the liturgy which were abandoned after the council is very disconcerting.

What does that mean when the world’s bishops are so firmly against reverence, Latin, and a less anthropocentric liturgy? I would hate to think this attitude characterizes other views they have of God and the Church.

Let’s not forget that the majority of the bishops dspite the efforts of JPII are of the same generation that gave us the VII reforms. While there are some good hardheaded bishops prepared to stand up and be counted most are at best conciliators. There will be no true reform of the reform until the generation who came out of the seminaries between the late 50’s and early 70’s has passed on. We have a truly orthodox bishop but he meets resistance at every turn. He is afraid that strong action will leave him with no priests at all. Many are hoping that time will heal as it probably will but sadly many souls will be lost in the process.

 

[MrS]

mcliffor:

That article is kind of disturbing. The Latin Mass differs from the normative rite namely because of it’s reverence. Seeing that the worlds bishops are so commited to never moving in that direction and re-incorporating other essential elements of the liturgy which were abandoned after the council is very disconcerting.

What does that mean when the world’s bishops are so firmly against reverence, Latin, and a less anthropocentric liturgy? I would hate to think this attitude characterizes other views they have of God and the Church.

**Proposal 36 From The October 2005 Synod
**
The Use of Latin in Liturgical Celebrations

To express better the unity and universality of the Church in the celebration of the Eucharist during international meetings, ever more frequent today, it is proposed:

– to suggest that the concelebration of the Mass be in Latin (except Readings, the homily and the Prayer of the Faithful). So also should be the prayers of the tradition of the Church, and musical compositions of Gregorian chant should eventually be sung;

– to recommend that priests be prepared in the seminary to understand and celebrate the Mass in Latin, as well as to use Latin prayers and know how to value Gregorian chant;

– to not neglect the possibility that the faithful themselves be educated in this respect.

 

[YinYangMom]

Proposal 36 From The October 2005 Synod

The Use of Latin in Liturgical Celebrations

To express better the unity and universality of the Church in the celebration of the Eucharist during international meetings, ever more frequent today, it is proposed:

– to suggest that the concelebration of the Mass be in Latin (except Readings, the homily and the Prayer of the Faithful). So also should be the prayers of the tradition of the Church, and musical compositions of Gregorian chant should eventually be sung;

– to recommend that priests be prepared in the seminary to understand and celebrate the Mass in Latin, as well as to use Latin prayers and know how to value Gregorian chant;

– to not neglect the possibility that the faithful themselves be educated in this respect.

Do we know yet what the response was by the Synod to that proposal?

We know it wasn’t accepted outright, I suppose, or else this thread would be unnecessary, but do we know whether it was warmly received, open discussion took place, etc???

I would not want to see the tradition die in the U.S.
I don’t want it to be the mandate either, though.
I like the New Mass and I appreciate the Old.
I want to keep both.

 

[Iohannes]

As long as there is “dissenting” groups like the SSPX, there will be the Tridentine Mass. I am talking about the current situation, who knows, things may change.

Even the Eastern Orthodox have decided form their own Tridentine communities.

 

[Monica37]

Hi. I’m new here. I read a lot but have not felt comfortable posting. I came back to the church 3 yrs ago and attended my first Tridentine Mass 2 years ago. I have to say that the Tridentine Mass had a great effect on me. Unfortunately, because we are a military family and have no say in where we live, we are stuck in a place where the closest Tridentine Mass is 3 hours away and is at 7:30 am (Eastern time, I am in Central time). Eventually, we will retire to Richmond, VA, where there is a Tridentine Mass daily. Until then, it is difficult to attend the NO as it is here. My parrish is not way out, but it’s just not all that reverent either. One thing that I do that helps me, is that I support the Priestly Fraternity of ST Peter. I get their newsletter and as a matter of fact they said in the latest that they have welcomed 18 new seminarians. I guess that is some help. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[Colm_O_Higgins]

B16 isnt about to let the Latin mass fall into extinction. In fact, he’s one of the main reasons we still have specifically Latin groups within the Church today. The Bishops at the synod merely meant the Tridentine Mass was not at the top of the ecclesia mundi’s pressing issues list.

Re: Strong Bishops.

We were blessed with a new, orthodox Bishop last year. He arrived after our ‘healing’ bishop was moved to the arch-diocese of Vancouver, after 6 years of carefully and subtly moving the diocese back into communion with the rest of the Church. Prior to this ‘healing’ bishop, we had a horribly misguided man who absolutely gutted the diocese. He ‘ruled’ for 28 years, during which there were only 4 - 5 ordinations and none during the last 12 years. With our orthodox Bishop (and a wonderful rector), who meets resistance all the time, we now have vastly increased participation in Sunday worship, all-night vigils anda vibrant and expanding youth & young adult ministry. Pray for your bishop. People will return to the Church, not drop away.

 

[MrS]

Iohannes:

As long as there is “dissenting” groups like the SSPX, there will be the Tridentine Mass. I am talking about the current situation, who knows, things may change.

Even the Eastern Orthodox have decided form their own Tridentine communities.

As long as there are orthodox bishops like B16, and “conservative” Catholics around the world, there will be a Tridentine Mass. Thank you very much.

 

[thistle]

Shortly after Benedict 16 was elected EWTN showed an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then with EWTN’s Mike Arroyo. The Cardinal was asked outright if he would like to see a return to the Latin Mass. He did not say yes or no. What he said was that he would like to see some parts of the Mass in Latin but said people should be able to hear Mass in their own language.
To me that sounded like he would not go along with a general return to the Tridentine Mass.

 

[YinYangMom]

thistle:

Shortly after Benedict 16 was elected EWTN showed an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then with EWTN’s Mike Arroyo. The Cardinal was asked outright if he would like to see a return to the Latin Mass. He did not say yes or no. What he said was that he would like to see some parts of the Mass in Latin but said people should be able to hear Mass in their own language.
To me that sounded like he would not go along with a general return to the Tridentine Mass.

There’s no reason to return to the Tridentine Mass, if by that you mean, discontinue the NO.

What we need is for Pope Benedict to lift that ruling which says the Tridentine can only be said with permission from the local bishop so that any parish can offer the Tridentine should they so choose.

I get the impression from Pope Benedict that this would be something he would consider and most likely do.

But I also get the impression he may be opting to clean house with regard to the NO before making the Tridentine universally available. It seems his focus is in correcting the abuses to the NO worldwide in order to give the ‘real’ NO a chance to be appreciated as was intended. Then, perhaps, he’ll open the gates to the Tridentine.

That’s purely my speculation though.

 

[MrS]

YinYangMom:

There’s no reason to return to the Tridentine Mass, if by that you mean, discontinue the NO.

What we need is for Pope Benedict to lift that ruling which says the Tridentine can only be said with permission from the local bishop so that any parish can offer the Tridentine should they so choose.

I get the impression from Pope Benedict that this would be something he would consider and most likely do.

But I also get the impression he may be opting to clean house with regard to the NO before making the Tridentine universally available. It seems his focus is in correcting the abuses to the NO worldwide in order to give the ‘real’ NO a chance to be appreciated as was intended. Then, perhaps, he’ll open the gates to the Tridentine.

That’s purely my speculation though.

And on this sunny day in November, I agree with you whole heartedly.

 

[Iohannes]

MrS:

As long as there are orthodox bishops like B16, and “conservative” Catholics around the world, there will be a Tridentine Mass. Thank you very much.

Yes, what you say is true also, I do not deny that. But also, the SSPX is helping the Tridentine Mass survive.
Well, many people cannot drive 100 miles you know. We cannot all relocate to orthodox dioceses.

How come it is not offered to all indult traditionalist to request adn desire it? Where is the action against the bishops who take away the indult Mass even though there is great support for it?
There is not alot of good orthodox bishops in America.

Unfortunately, there is not alot of orthodox bishops like B16, my own bishop quietly supports same sex unions and same sex adoption while not punishing slopiness in the liturgies. Not only that he is a violator of the GIRM and Redemptoris Sacramentum.

 

[thistle]

I’m British but now live in the Philippines so excuse my ignorance for having to ask this question. My impression is that most forum members are American and consequently most voices in favour the Tridentine Mass are American. I’m curious to learn what percentage of American churches offer this Mass?
Also for my edification as I have been a Catholic for only 14 years (I am 57 years old and only experienced the Novos Ordo Mass), was the Tridentine Mass gradually phased out after Vatican II or was there a cut-off date after which only the NO was applicable.

 

[thistle]

thistle:

I’m British but now live in the Philippines so excuse my ignorance for having to ask this question. My impression is that most forum members are American and consequently most voices in favour the Tridentine Mass are American. I’m curious to learn what percentage of American churches offer this Mass?
Also for my edification as I have been a Catholic for only 14 years (I am 57 years old and only experienced the Novos Ordo Mass), was the Tridentine Mass gradually phased out after Vatican II or was there a cut-off date after which only the NO was applicable.

Just noticed this part of my question has been answered in another thread but I’m still curious about the first one.

 

[Kielbasi]

My impression is that most forum members are American and consequently most voices in favour the Tridentine Mass are American. I’m curious to learn what percentage of American churches offer this Mass?

Approxiamately 200 out of estimated 20,000 American parishes have the traditional Latin mass.

That’s 1%.

 

[Iohannes]

The Tridentine Mass was gradually phased out by making massive changes to it. The first major changes began in 1965.
-permitted the vernacular
-permitted facing the people
-eliminated some of the prayers

The 1967 was also a big one

Then in 1969, full fledged Novus Ordo.

1970 ICEL English DELIBERATE Misstranslation was introduced to the English speaking population of the world.

Want to learn more go to this blog:
traditionalromanmass.blogspot.com/

and to this link:
coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

 

[Iohannes]

Kielbasi:

Approxiamately 200 out of estimated 20,000 American parishes have the traditional Latin mass.

That’s 1%.

More good questions to ask?
Out of how many of those parishes allow a full life of Traditional Latin Mass(Tridentine)? Weddings, baptisms, confirmation, in the old rite? How many allow those in the old rite?
How many of those parishes will allow daily Tridentine Masses? What is the harm of having a full tridentine life? Are they are afraid of a population explosion because families may have lots of kids?

In order for the Tridentine Mass to survive also, people need to live like Catholics, PERIOD!!!

 

[bear06]

Are they are afraid of a population explosion because families may have lots of kids?

Excuse me, lohannes. At the “Novus Ordo” I attend, I actually have one of the smaller families at 6. Yikes. Another question I have is should a diocese be forced to allow many Tridentine Masses for just a few. Our diocesan Tridentine has been well advertised and yet, it’s still not standing room only. It draws traditionalists and radical traditionalists from several different diocese. If it had to survive on just our diocese, it wouldn’t. I think if our bishop can continue the reforming trend he has started in our diocese, many less will attend. It’s very strange for me to walk into the diocese down the street and see the GIRM actually being implemented. If I weren’t so involved in my parishes and have been for many years, I would actually feel comfortable attending a local church. If everyone got out there and fought for orthodox bishops instead of lambasting the “Novus Ordo” alot more would be accomplished. So much energy is wasted on fighting for something that won’t effect change.

 

[thistle]

Kielbasi:

Approxiamately 200 out of estimated 20,000 American parishes have the traditional Latin mass.

That’s 1%.

Thanks. Do these 200 parishes also allow the Novos Ordo Mass or only the Tridentine Mass? If only the Tridentine Mass is it imposed on the congragations or were the congregations consulted and agreed with it?

 

[Kielbasi]

thistle:

Thanks. Do these 200 parishes also allow the Novos Ordo Mass or only the Tridentine Mass? If only the Tridentine Mass is it imposed on the congragations or were the congregations consulted and agreed with it?

That varies, some have both, others only the tridentine mass.

Those with only the tridentine rite are personal (as opposed to territorial) parishes established just for the purpose of having latin mass by one of the tridentine order of priests.

I don’t think the latin mass was imposed on anyone.

 

[Kielbasi]

Iohannes:

More good questions to ask?
Out of how many of those parishes allow a full life of Traditional Latin Mass(Tridentine)? Weddings, baptisms, confirmation, in the old rite? How many allow those in the old rite?
How many of those parishes will allow daily Tridentine Masses? What is the harm of having a full tridentine life?

There isn’t any harm, but your question would seem to imply that there is something inherently wrong with the mainstream rite, that lat(name removed by moderator)hiles should never receive sacraments in a novus ordo church.

I know that the magesterium doesn’t agree that this is necessarily the case.