No, I do NOT reject God

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There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
 
+JMJ+

People go to hell because they don’t want Mercy, Peace, and Joy. Pure and simple.
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
God is love. Who are the people rejected? Those whom love does not know.

And he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’
 
The argument is that God gives us free will so we can choose freely whether to believe, but then robs us of free will by saying we’ll go to hell if we don’t believe.

It’s a silly, transparent attempt at coercion based on a very confused understanding of God, that must put a lot of people off Christianity,
 
+JMJ+
The argument is that God gives us free will so we can choose freely whether to believe, but then robs us of free will by saying we’ll go to hell if we don’t believe.

It’s a silly, transparent attempt at coercion based on a very confused understanding of God, that must put a lot of people off Christianity,
Which is why most theologians do not start with free will when discussing about the conundrum of good and evil, but with desire.

“There is no doubt about it. We all want to be happy. Everyone will agree with me even before the words are out of my mouth… so let us see if we can find the best way to achieve it.” St. Augustine, De Moribus Ecclesiae Catholicae, I, iii, 4.
 
Compunction, Presumption, Seven Deadly Sins, Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Obligations of a Catholic, Trinity, Desire of the Holy Spirit to be and guide one self. Hell, Pergutory,
(all examples of what at one time was known by all who thought or wished to lead the lost
sheep to God, today in the face of the failed Liberalized religion are unknowen and forgotten that “help” to guide us."
In the things of God natural reason is at a loss. Understanding, not reason, is ascribed to God and the angles. God is great and surpassing our knowledge.
Mortal Sin is that to which erases the charity of your Heart, a rejection of God.
Presumption of Heaven is a sin.
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
Trurl…
Not your best posting…since there are many who are not Christian, and yet believe in God. But - setting aside that flaw in your argument…

If one says that “God does not exist”, how is that not rejecting God in a most fundamental way?

To say that “God does not exist” is very different than saying “I don’t believe in God as the Christians describe Him”…
Saying “God does not exist” is a positive statement that would need to be held to the same standard that you would wish to hold the believer to. The need to supply irefutable evidence that God (in some manner) does not exist.
However, saying, “I don’t accept the Christian description of God”…or some other and more defined statement is something quite different. This is closer to what you are describing in your OP. The rejection of a certain concept or description of God leaves open the possibility of accepting some other description or concept. Only in this way could you rightly say that you reject “concepts” but not “reject” God…

Not sure if I explained that clearly…I hope it makes sense to you…

Peace
James
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
Rejecting “arguments for God’s existence” is finding “convincing” arguments for God’s existence and merely relying to equally-non-reliable arguments against God’s existence. Thus, if one knows that God is necessary to exist, yet “argue” that He cannot exist is equivalent to DENIAL and hence REJECTION. No matter how we “rationalize” that one does not reject God when the premise that God exists is not accepted, one still in principle trying to reject God. This, I believe is one of those sins (under the catholic Faith) against the Holy Spirit.
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
First of all, the Catholic Church does not teach that one who does not believe in God consciously automatically goes to Hell because of that. For example, we know that baptised babies go to Heaven without such conscious belief. For all we know, it might be somewhat similar with some atheists. You should check if the beliefs that you are arguing with are what the Church teaches and not what the Church condemns - like some sort of Protestantism or Feeneyism.

Second, when one speaks of going to hell as a result of rejection of God, this “rejection of God” means mortal sin without repentance, not atheism.

Thus I’m afraid that you ended up arguing against a strawman…
 
First of all, the Catholic Church does not teach that one who does not believe in God consciously automatically goes to Hell because of that. For example, we know that baptised babies go to Heaven without such conscious belief. For all we know, it might be somewhat similar with some atheists. You should check if the beliefs that you are arguing with are what the Church teaches and not what the Church condemns - like some sort of Protestantism or Feeneyism.

Second, when one speaks of going to hell as a result of rejection of God, this “rejection of God” means mortal sin without repentance, not atheism.
Thus I’m afraid that you ended up arguing against a strawman…
If an atheist gets a hold of a Host and desecrates it by giving it to his dog or desecrates it in another fashion and posts it on YouTube, does he go to Hell if he thinks it’s 1-inconsequential 2-just flour and water, and nothing else. He doesn’t have knowledge that it’s grave matter and probably doesn’t know what a mortal sin is either. If he does that seconds before dying, and he has no mortal sin on his soul prior to this event, is he saved?
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
Anyone can reject God. When a Catholic person lies to get out of a parking ticket, they are knowingly commiting a sin, but have convinced themselves that their sin is justified. Hopefully, they repent later and realize what they have done is wrong, but there are those who obstinatly cling to their false justifications for their sins and they have rejected God in a profound was, even as they claim to believe in him. This is the same in any faith. A person choses themself before God. A person who is an atheist may or may not be rejecting God. People become atheist for many different reasons. Some are angry at God and are willfully trying to deny Him. Others have attempted to be spiritual, but have found they simply can’t bring themselves to believe. Others have never really been given the opportunity to be close to God in the first place and assume there is no God since they have never been aware of His presence. Still others reject God in defiance of those they percieve to be unjust or foolish. (ex. They see Westboro Baptists on the corner and determine that they are idiots and so anyone who believes in God must also be an idiot or they resent the tyrannical way in which religion was enforced upon them by their parents.) So, in regard to atheists, I think that there are a large percentage whose rejection of God is much less culpable than that of the Christian who is lying to the cop to get out of the ticket, as they may never have been aware of His presence in the first place. However, anyone who claims that God doesn’t exist is at least rejecting Him on a basic level. God will judge them justly, based on their circumstances and what only He knows is in their heart.
 
If an atheist gets a hold of a Host and desecrates it by giving it to his dog or desecrates it in another fashion and posts it on YouTube, does he go to Hell if he thinks it’s 1-inconsequential 2-just flour and water, and nothing else. He doesn’t have knowledge that it’s grave matter and probably doesn’t know what a mortal sin is either. If he does that seconds before dying, and he has no mortal sin on his soul prior to this event, is he saved?
Why are you asking us? Heaven isn’t the kind of club where new members are voted in by majority.
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
I understand your argument completely. You are saying that you cannot truly reject something whose existence you were not aware of. Just so, I cannot be said to have refused to let someone in, if I never heard them knocking or didn’t know they were out there. To say that I refused to let them in would be misleading.

As I understand it, Catholics tend to say that – on some level – most non-believers do know that God exists, and know the difference between right and wrong. However, out of pride, stubbornness, hardness of heart, or hatred and spite, they refuse to accept God and the doing of what is right.

They are, frankly, moralizing your non-belief, whereas most non-believers say – and I believe them – that they simply are not convinced, or don’t find the argument compelling.

Ironically, Catholics can understand this argument perfectly well, as regards a religion such as Mormonism. If some Mormon were say, “you know Joseph Smith was right, but out of pride, stubbornness, hardness of heart, or sheer spite, you reject his message,” a Catholic might say, “I have goodwill for Mormon beliefs, and there is no malice in my not accepting it. Frankly, I just don’t see it; I’m sorry. I know that upsets you.”

Catholics do have the doctrine of invincible ignorance, which is more akin to what you are saying – that, indeed, you cannot truly reject that which you are truly unaware of. However, they tend to apply it very conservatively, as I understand it, since it applies only to those who have never heard of the Church or of the Gospels. For those who have heard of the Church, or the Gospels – let alone have been former Catholics themselves – the invincible argument generally cannot be invoked. In that case, non-acceptance of Catholicism becomes not a matter of intellectual error, or of mere ignorance, but a moral transgression and a grave sin, a rejecting of what you know is true. You are simply denying that you know it.

Again, if it turned out that Mormonism or Islam were the true religion, a Catholic would (I think) tend to understand your argument completely, that it is not fair to chalk up honest disbelief (on the grounds of being unconvinced by the arguments put forth by other human beings) to a moral transgression, or to a denial of something you know is true, but chose to reject. Thus, they would tend to believe that their lack of belief in that particular religion was, indeed, innocent.
 
The argument is that God gives us free will so we can choose freely whether to believe, but then robs us of free will by saying we’ll go to hell if we don’t believe.

It’s a silly, transparent attempt at coercion based on a very confused understanding of God, that must put a lot of people off Christianity,
Always a delight to read your contribution. Thanks.
 
If an atheist gets a hold of a Host and desecrates it by giving it to his dog or desecrates it in another fashion and posts it on YouTube, does he go to Hell if he thinks it’s 1-inconsequential 2-just flour and water, and nothing else. He doesn’t have knowledge that it’s grave matter and probably doesn’t know what a mortal sin is either. If he does that seconds before dying, and he has no mortal sin on his soul prior to this event, is he saved?
I’m always confused when someone asks if we think they are saved, we are not God, we don’t know. Only God knows the depths of our hearts, I myself am a sinful creature and I am in no way qualified to declare someone to be saved or not, especially since I’m still a sinner.

In the Catholic church for something to be considered a mortal sin it must meet 3 criteria:

1: It subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.

2: It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense.

3: It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin

So when you say in your above quote
" He doesn’t have knowledge that it’s grave matter" well then that doesn’t meet the criteria for committing mortal sin in the above point number 2. Desecrating the Eucharist is a very serious matter, however, the atheist didn’t have full knowledge of the gravity his actions…Hence his culpability of the actions he committed have been diminished. Can this person be saved? Yes. But when you ask, “Is he saved” I don’t know…I’m in no way qualified to judge the destination of someones soul.
 
Not your best posting…since there are many who are not Christian, and yet believe in God. But - setting aside that flaw in your argument…
I try to be consistent. When I speak of the “god as described by christianity” I capitalize the word and write “God”. In those rare instances, when I wish to speak of the “generalized” god-concept, I do not capitalize. So I don’t think that there is any flaw in the argument. But, setting it aside, let me reflect on the next part.
If one says that “God does not exist”, how is that not rejecting God in a most fundamental way?

To say that “God does not exist” is very different than saying “I don’t believe in God as the Christians describe Him”…
Saying “God does not exist” is a positive statement that would need to be held to the same standard that you would wish to hold the believer to. The need to supply irefutable evidence that God (in some manner) does not exist.
However, saying, “I don’t accept the Christian description of God”…or some other and more defined statement is something quite different. This is closer to what you are describing in your OP. The rejection of a certain concept or description of God leaves open the possibility of accepting some other description or concept. Only in this way could you rightly say that you reject “concepts” but not “reject” God…

Not sure if I explained that clearly…I hope it makes sense to you…
You explained is clearly… and guess, what? I agree!

Let me summarize: I do not believe that there is, or can be anything outside the physical universe. Even the word “exists” outside the universe is an “undefined” word. Yet, none of this denies, or rejects the possibility that there is “something” or maybe “someone” who played an instrumental role in the environment we call the “universe”.

Indeed, there is a very loosely defined concept, called “god” or “God” - which may or may not have a referent in reality. To reject or deny this concept, I do NOT reject or deny the “referent” of this concept. Please read the post by Portofino, later in the thread for more details.
 
Rejecting “arguments for God’s existence” is finding “convincing” arguments for God’s existence and merely relying to equally-non-reliable arguments against God’s existence.
I am not advocating arguments against God’s existence. The refusal is based upon the LACK of good supporting arguments (which I will not discuss in this thread).
Thus, if one knows that God is necessary to exist…
The philosophical concept of “necessary” existence is meaninless.
 
I understand your argument completely. You are saying that you cannot truly reject something whose existence you were not aware of. Just so, I cannot be said to have refused to let someone in, if I never heard them knocking or didn’t know they were out there. To say that I refused to let them in would be misleading.

As I understand it, Catholics tend to say that – on some level – most non-believers do know that God exists, and know the difference between right and wrong. However, out of pride, stubbornness, hardness of heart, or hatred and spite, they refuse to accept God and the doing of what is right.

They are, frankly, moralizing your non-belief, whereas most non-believers say – and I believe them – that they simply are not convinced, or don’t find the argument compelling.

Ironically, Catholics can understand this argument perfectly well, as regards a religion such as Mormonism. If some Mormon were say, “you know Joseph Smith was right, but out of pride, stubbornness, hardness of heart, or sheer spite, you reject his message,” a Catholic might say, “I have goodwill for Mormon beliefs, and there is no malice in my not accepting it. Frankly, I just don’t see it; I’m sorry. I know that upsets you.”

Catholics do have the doctrine of invincible ignorance, which is more akin to what you are saying – that, indeed, you cannot truly reject that which you are truly unaware of. However, they tend to apply it very conservatively, as I understand it, since it applies only to those who have never heard of the Church or of the Gospels. For those who have heard of the Church, or the Gospels – let alone have been former Catholics themselves – the invincible argument generally cannot be invoked. In that case, non-acceptance of Catholicism becomes not a matter of intellectual error, or of mere ignorance, but a moral transgression and a grave sin, a rejecting of what you know is true. You are simply denying that you know it.

Again, if it turned out that Mormonism or Islam were the true religion, a Catholic would (I think) tend to understand your argument completely, that it is not fair to chalk up honest disbelief (on the grounds of being unconvinced by the arguments put forth by other human beings) to a moral transgression, or to a denial of something you know is true, but chose to reject. Thus, they would tend to believe that their lack of belief in that particular religion was, indeed, innocent.
Every word is pure gold. Thanks! Your post should be a sticky and everone should be required to read AND understand it.
 
No Catholic in their best senses and reason leave the Catholic Faith. Just as anyone serious leave their “previous” position about God if they REALLY believe that their position is true.

Claiming that one does not reject God since he does not believe in God is an oxymoron. It’s plain rejection, or an excuse. Either way, God knows (by definition of God).
 
There is this argument about hell, that God does not send anyone to hell, rather there are people to reject God and God merely grants them their wish. Not a good argument. Non-christians are logically incapable of “rejecting” God, since they do not believe that God exists. Only christians could “reject” God, but I don’t think that they would not do that, since it would make no sense.

Of course the non-christians DO reject the arguments for God’s existence, they DO reject the concept of God. But to say that rejecting the “concept” is the same as rejecting the “alleged referent” of that concept is yet another logical error.
Before I start my comment I just want to say that what I’m about to post is in no way part of Catholic teaching, it’s just something that I’ve either heard or read somewhere, but I can’t remember where…

I’ve heard it said (somewhere), that at the time of death when a soul is in the presence of the sinless and perfect God, their creator. At the time of their judgement that soul becomes aware of their sins. Those sins are like dark, ugly, filthy, stains that have made it tainted. The soul then becomes fully aware of there sinfulness and if they have rejected God and his grace due to their sinfulness. Then the soul becomes terrified of God and flees from God to the farthest place it could go, which is hell.
I’ve heard it said that it is similar to the story of Adam and Eve when they were ashamed of their sins while in the presence of God and they desired to flee and hide from God due to their sinful actions.
 
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