No Immaculate Conception, No Immutable God

[Gorgias]

Your premise first was based on Mary knowing scripture.

I wondered how much education did a Jewish women have. The answer was not much. She would not have been taught scripture. She went from having a father over her to having a husband over her. Girls were instructed in the domestic responsibilities. It is unlikely that Mary had much knowledge of scripture.

How much Scripture do you know? How much Scripture have you been taught? On the other hand, how much Scripture have you picked up from weekly liturgies?

Presuming that observant Jews in 1st century Palestine didn’t know Scripture is a non-starter.

 

[Gorgias]

Strawman My post did not presume anything about an observant Jew.

Of course it did! Let’s look at it again:

Your premise first was based on Mary knowing scripture.

I wondered how much education did a Jewish women have. The answer was not much. She would not have been taught scripture.

Unless you’re trying to say that Mary wasn’t “an observant Jew”, then you’re definitely positing that she didn’t know anything about Scripture… and that’s ludicrous in the case of 1st century Jews in Palestine!

 

[Buddyroe]

Calvinists do not maintain that Mary could not have said no, it is simply not taught.

Free will for Calvinists comes into debate on the general subject of soteriology specifically with regards to God’s providence. God guides whosoever He chooses but that doesn’t mean He overrules their free will. We can all examine the rationale behind this for ourselves from reliable resources so I won’t expand on it here.

In the case of Mary, God chose her and she accepted, that is free will on her part. Of course God knew she would.

The immaculate Conception is something that Calvin denied as would any Calvinist, however there is no great desire to dissuade Roman Catholics in this matter as they are most likely predestined against recanting

 

[Gorgias]

Your premise first was based on Mary knowing scripture.

I wondered how much education did a Jewish women have. The answer was not much. She would not have been taught scripture. She went from having a father over her to having a husband over her. Girls were instructed in the domestic responsibilities. It is unlikely that Mary had much knowledge of scripture. Perhaps that is why Simeon had to tell her about what would happen to Jesus. It would also explain why did not understand that Jesus had to be in His Father’s house.

I did not say that Mary did not know any scripture

Umm… if you say so…

 

[Gorgias]

If you have evidence to the contrary,please post.

LOL! If I have evidence that Mary knew Scripture? C’mon… you’ve gotta admit that you know that you’ve just set up an impossible task! (Not that it proves your point – just that it’s impossible. I might just as well ask you – since it’s your assertion that she didn’t – to provide evidence for your claim! )

The discussion was concerning Mary being ever virgin because of your response I assume that you believe she was not.

Why in the world would you assume that ?!?

I don’t believe that Mary was asking how a virgin could give birth. I believe she was asking how she, who would never know man, could.

Aren’t these the same question, essentially? “How can I, who is X, do Y ?” and “How can anyone who is X, do Y ?” are materially the same question.

(BTW, I think you’ve mischaracterized the debate: it wasn’t “how can a virgin in general conceive?”, but rather, “was Mary saying 'that means that I’m the almah in the prophecy in Isaiah! BTW… how can that prophecy come true, given that we’re talking about a virgin?!?”)

And again, BTW… I would assert that, in that time and place, every observant Jew knew the messianic prophecies and anxiously looked forward to the coming messiah! One didn’t have to be a Scripture scholar to know them…