No infant Baptism unless parents take class and pay fee?

[Cromwell4]

Anyone can perform a Baptism…even an non-baptised person.

Taking money for this (and totally unnecessary compulsory classes) is a modern-day corruption that has crept into the RC Church… rather like the good days of selling indulgences. Write to yr Bishop …or better still write to the Pope!

 

[babochka]

It is also customary to make an offering on the occasion of marriages, funerals, and confirmations.

My pastor is not from the United States and when he first came here, he was extremely uncomfortable accepting offerings that people gave him. He used to refuse them, or ask people to just put it in the collection basket of our financially struggling parish. I’ve heard others ask him “how much” for various “services” and he always answers, “you can give me nothing, you can give me a million dollars. We do need a new roof.” (He is happy to accept garden fresh produce, fresh eggs, help building a fence, or an offer to mow the parish lawn.) He pastors a flock and sees all these things as within his area of responsibility to us. Now, we are not a parish that gets random people, who haven’t set foot in a church in years, calling to ask about Baptism and First Communions for their children and grandchildren. (Well, they call, but they’re looking for the Latin Rite church down the street. )

My parish doesn’t charge for CCD or anything really (basically just rental of the parish hall, use of the church for private weddings) but others in the area do. The offerings are established by the diocese. If people give an offering, I deposit it. If they don’t, then they don’t.

I really believe this is the way it ought to be. It seems perfectly reasonable to charge for the use of a church in a private wedding and rental of the hall, but I think the cost of religious education and the administration of all sacraments is within the responsibility of the parish.

My parish is so small that we really can’t be used as a comparison for anything. While we struggle greatly financially, the tiny amount of fees that would be gained from charging for anything would be negligible and would seem gratuitous, as our parishioners give generously just to keep the doors open. We don’t even charge parishioners for hall rental or use of the church for a wedding. A wedding would be a parish event anyway, and if a parishioner wanted to use the hall, our priest would just look at it as an opportunity to get the hall cleaned.

I agree that these things should be supported by the community as a whole. I admire the bishop in Wichita, where Catholic school is free too.

Yes! That is an example of great leadership and an impressive response by the people to his leadership.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Now, we are not a parish that gets random people, who haven’t set foot in a church in years, calling to ask about Baptism and First Communions for their children and grandchildren.

I think random people / non-practicing Catholics asking for sacraments or other services is the norm at many churches.

My parish is so small that we really can’t be used as a comparison for anything. While we struggle greatly financially, the tiny amount of fees that would be gained from charging for anything would be negligible and would seem gratuitous, as our parishioners give generously just to keep the doors open. We don’t even charge parishioners for hall rental or use of the church for a wedding. A wedding would be a parish event anyway, and if a parishioner wanted to use the hall, our priest would just look at it as an opportunity to get the hall cleaned.

I belong to the same size parish as you. Everyone gives just to keep the doors open. While stable financially with a small reserve in the bank, we basically break even each month. We too don’t have fees for parish members for things like that, but also have a parish where everyone would make an offering without asking. The policy is “Nothing is asked or expected, but you may make a donation if you wish”. If someone had an event and nothing was donated nothing would be said.

 

[jmcrae]

It appears the dogma of Baptism being required and never refused to a child (infant) has changed. When the local parish was asked to schedule a Baptism for our infant we were told this would not be possible unless both parents took a class and a fee was paid.

I have no problem with the fee to cover costs and instruction is always good. But there are times when this is not convenient or even nearly impossible. Adding insult to injury, “witnesses” were required to attend or the Baptism would be denied.

After decades of study and internal conversion, I have begun to question the Church.

The class is required so that the parents actually do understand what it is that they are undertaking, so that when they answer “Yes,” to that question during the Baptism itself, they know what they are saying “Yes” to. It’s best for both parents to attend the class because the message can get muddled when it’s being passed from one parent to the other, and a whole lot of “well, they couldn’t possibly have meant that, are you sure you were paying close attention?” can happen, as well.

If it is “inconvenient” to take the class (which is offered several times a year in most parishes) then what else might be “inconvenient”? It is a matter of priorities. If your child’s Baptism is a low priority, then many things will take precedence over this time of thoughtful and prayerful preparation for the day of his Baptism.

But if it is of serious importance, then there are very few things, other than life and death emergencies, that can get in the way.

Fees can be waived; that should never be an issue.

Witnesses (god parents) have been required since the time of the Apostles. Ours is a public religion, and a shared faith. We don’t become Catholic in private. You had a witness (god parent/sponsor) when you were received into the Church, too.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t remember at any time, St. John in the gospels charging people for Baptism.

I doubt anyone is charging for the actual Baptism; I expect it’s a book fee for the class.

 

[robwar]

It appears the dogma of Baptism being required and never refused to a child (infant) has changed. When the local parish was asked to schedule a Baptism for our infant we were told this would not be possible unless both parents took a class and a fee was paid.

I have no problem with the fee to cover costs and instruction is always good. But there are times when this is not convenient or even nearly impossible. Adding insult to injury, “witnesses” were required to attend or the Baptism would be denied.

After decades of study and internal conversion, I have begun to question the Church.

The requirment by the parish for a baptism class is ususally set by the diocese and for good reasons. If this sacrament is to be adminstered to an infant, part of that is the parents promise to raise the child in the faith as well as education as to what is expected of them and the meaning etc etc etc. Whether you know alot or not, it is a discipline to do so. My husband and I had to go to the classes each time our children were baptized. Unless your child is gravely ill and in danger of death would the class requirement be waved.

 

[Miserissima]

The sacraments are not to be withheld from those who are “needy” and in “poverty” because someone cannot give an offering. I highly doubt that applies to *anyone *on this thread.

This displayed an amazing, stinging, lack of *charity *-- treble pun intended.
My ability (or not) to pay a stipend (not a fee, I know) is not for you to speculate upon, especially in light of your professional position.

 

[jmcrae]

I was not outraged because I believe the sacraments aren’t worth anything.

I was outraged because your church has declared that buying and selling sacraments is a sin called simony, and it was asking me to engage in that sin.

How much would you say is fair to charge for baptism?

I would say, a book costs the parish $12.00; photocopying is 6 cents a page, a box of pens, $4.50, the rights to show a DVD in a public setting, $150.00; 2 hours of the custodian’s time on a weekend at time and a half, $60.00, and snacks and drinks are about $30.00, plus a couple bucks for heat and light, plus the candle and other items used during the Baptism itself, $50.00 would not be an unreasonable supply fee.

if they are also paying hourly wages to the people who teach the class, and to the Deacon who does the Baptisms, then the cost to the parish would be more than that, of course.

 

[Xantippe]

The class is required so that the parents actually do understand what it is that they are undertaking, so that when they answer “Yes,” to that question during the Baptism itself, they know what they are saying “Yes” to. It’s best for both parents to attend the class because the message can get muddled when it’s being passed from one parent to the other, and a whole lot of “well, they couldn’t possibly have meant that, are you sure you were paying close attention?” can happen, as well.

If it is “inconvenient” to take the class (which is offered several times a year in most parishes) then what else might be “inconvenient”? It is a matter of priorities. If your child’s Baptism is a low priority, then many things will take precedence over this time of thoughtful and prayerful preparation for the day of his Baptism.

But if it is of serious importance, then there are very few things, other than life and death emergencies, that can get in the way.

Fees can be waived; that should never be an issue.

Witnesses (god parents) have been required since the time of the Apostles. Ours is a public religion, and a shared faith. We don’t become Catholic in private. You had a witness (god parent/sponsor) when you were received into the Church, too.

Over in the family life forum, there was discussion of parish situations where:

1. The baptism class is required for each and every child, no matter how many children the couple has. (Which does raise the question–if it didn’t take the first three times, why should we expect the fourth to do the job?)
2. The baptism class is only allowed after the baby is born–pregnant women (i.e. women who might actually have some leisure to take the class and process it) can’t take it yet.
3. The baptism class isn’t immediately available once the baby is born, so the family will have to wait months before being able to baptize the child. Your example of a baptism class available “several” times a year means that there would almost certainly be a several month wait for the child to be baptized, particularly when combined with #2.

In combination, those three conditions create an extremely unfriendly and unworkable situation for young families.

I’ve had three children baptized and am very pleased to say that I’ve never had to take a baptism class.

 

[Xantippe]

I would say, a book costs the parish $12.00; photocopying is 6 cents a page, a box of pens, $4.50, the rights to show a DVD in a public setting, $150.00; 2 hours of the custodian’s time on a weekend at time and a half, $60.00, and snacks and drinks are about $30.00, plus a couple bucks for heat and light, plus the candle and other items used during the Baptism itself, $50.00 would not be an unreasonable supply fee.

if they are also paying hourly wages to the people who teach the class, and to the Deacon who does the Baptisms, then the cost to the parish would be more than that, of course.

How many sessions is this, anyway? How can they possibly get through a whole book, a pile of photocopies AND a DVD in a single night? If it’s a single night, it’s overkill with the materials, and if it’s three or four nights, why yes, that does produce a scheduling nightmare for parents or godparents with more than one child, shift work, etc. And why snacks and drinks? I bet people would happily pass on those if they knew they were being charged for them.

How about the following:

–one 60 minute session
–some handouts (no more than three sheets–the less you hand out, the better chance there is they will actually read it)

I promise–no one will complain about the stuff that is missing if they aren’t being charged for it.

 

[1ke]

This displayed an amazing, stinging, lack of *charity *-- treble pun intended.
My ability (or not) to pay a stipend (not a fee, I know) is not for you to speculate upon, especially in light of your professional position.

I don’t know what professional position you are referring to.

And, it’s the way I see it. Americans in general are not in poverty, and those specifically participating in this thread are perfectly capable of giving an offering.

 

[1ke]

If it is “inconvenient” to take the class (which is offered several times a year in most parishes) then what else might be “inconvenient”? It is a matter of priorities. If your child’s Baptism is a low priority, then many things will take precedence over this time of thoughtful and prayerful preparation for the day of his Baptism.

In some cases, yes, it is a matter of priorities. But there are many people who work shift work and have family situations that may not allow them to be at a class on a certain night. This happens often in RCIA. We must remember this is the norm, but there are other avenues that need to be offered to those who need them.

 

[Xantippe]

In some cases, yes, it is a matter of priorities. But there are many people who work shift work and have family situations that may not allow them to be at a class on a certain night. This happens often in RCIA. We must remember this is the norm, but there are other avenues that need to be offered to those who need them.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t know what professional position you are referring to.

And, it’s the way I see it. Americans in general are not in poverty, and those specifically participating in this thread are perfectly capable of giving an offering.

But the families who sacrament-bungee through our parishes are often poor and (to be strictly accurate) often not American citizens. (My big kids are in CCD in a city parish that serves a poorer neighborhood and I wouldn’t count on any of the other parents I saw having a spare $50 rattling around.) And the birth of a baby is often a very expensive time for new parents in other ways–hospital bills, formula, taking unpaid time off from work, adjusting to paying for childcare, etc.

The “anybody can spare $50!” attitude is one to avoid. It’s not true. Lots of people don’t have $50 at any particular time. From a Protestant blogger with a large family:

thecommonroomblog.com/2011/02/accidental-burdens.html

thecommonroomblog.com/2011/02/accidental-burdens-2.html

“Be mindful that what seems a small amount to you is unobtainable to others. Don’t speak disparagingly or dismissively of costs- ‘anybody can afford ten dollars,” ‘we all waste five dollars a week,’ ‘we all spend that much on a latte each week…’ No, we don’t.”

It’s really important to avoid shaming our less prosperous brethren. Think of our larger and poorer CAF families, and imagine yourself saying to a lower-than-median-income mother expecting her 8th baby, “Of course you can find $50!” Can we really say that with a straight face?

The Headmistress (the Protestant blogger I quoted) is primarily talking about “optional” church social events, but the same principle goes double or triple for stuff that is the bare minimum for being a practicing Catholic–marrying in the church, baptizing your kids, seeing that they receive first communion, confession and confirmation, etc.

Also, to put this on a more earthly level, if the faith “takes” and the child being baptized grows up to be a happy, productive, generous Catholic, the parish’s “investment” will pay off a thousand-fold.

 

[pianistclare]

The “class” in our parish is basically a one-two hour session with a Deacon or the priest to make sure that the parents fully intend to raise the child in the faith and they intend to continue (or begin) to practice their faith through Mass attendance, volunteering and praying for the parish family. Godparents welcome, and preferred to come so that they can fully understand that this is not simply an honorary thing.
No fees. It’s nice if they give the priest a stipend in a thank you card, but many don’t. If they ask, I recommend a dollar amount. If they don’t ask, I presume it’s not their custom or they can’t afford a stipend.
Almost all of our Baptisms occur during a Sunday Mass, so there are really no extra costs incurred. We’re all there anyway, with lights, air conditioning, and electricity running.

I am aware that some parish secretaries (not ours, but you know ) can be very persistent, and very direct when speaking to people. They don’t always speak with tact, with charity, or with a feeling of putting themselves in the other person’s shoes. They only know that Father so-and- so said THIS and THIS is the deal.

It’s unfortunate, because as we see, it gives people an excuse to walk away from the faith because something was not presented properly.

Parish employees are the invitation to community, and to family. We should behave in charity and with a smile and a good explanation and understanding about the information that we are called to give to parishioners.
Some people are ready for a fight though. I suspect that the pastors who say EVERYONE has to take the class, even the people with 6 kids, have had people fuss about his “making an exception” for some people and not others. Working with the public is fraught with peril.
LOL

But…people still get angry.
We just have to keep smiling and showing kindness…

 

[Phemie]

Our preparation consists of two one-hour sessions which we strongly encourage the parents to take before the baby comes. There are only two of us to give these (we’re volunteers) and we usually manage to give preparation about 5 times per year. But guaranteed that the day after we finish one we’ll get a phone call from someone who needs to prepare to be ready for this month’s Baptism (our pastor baptizes on the last Sunday of the month unless there is a pressing need to do so on another Sunday).

I figure our total outlay is perhaps $12/child, what with the booklets and the candle. So far I’ve managed to dissuade parish council from imposing a fee for preparation and if push comes to shove I’ll buy the materials myself – we only prepare about 20 couples per year.

What is frustrating is finding out after Mass that there are to be 4 children from the same family about to be baptized in a private ceremony, something that rarely happens, and the parents have not done any preparation. In fact, they didn’t even bother to come to either of the two Sunday masses. Children range in age from a few months to school aged. Apparently they don’t have time to do preparation (in 5 years???) and children must be baptized NOW! How do you insist that all other couples MUST do the prep when they see this happening?

I was appalled when I joined the team to find out that parents were being told that missing Mass on Sundays was OK, that we all had to prioritize and compromise. Say what?! I managed to change that bit of misinformation.

None of the pastors in the last 8 years have even bothered to find out what is being taught. I asked the last one to sit in on a session but he never bothered, even though I told him what was being taught – a direct contradiction of what he was telling parents when he met them before they came to us. Neither of the pastors who preceded or followed him met/meet the parents before the greeting at the back of the church.

 

[babochka]

But the families who sacrament-bungee through our parishes are often poor and (to be strictly accurate) often not American citizens. (My big kids are in CCD in a city parish that serves a poorer neighborhood and I wouldn’t count on any of the other parents I saw having a spare $50 rattling around.) And the birth of a baby is often a very expensive time for new parents in other ways–hospital bills, formula, taking unpaid time off from work, adjusting to paying for childcare, etc.

Thank you for saying this! We are far from destitute, but we are raising 5 (soon to be 6) children on a teacher’s salary. Our children have a roof over their heads, food to eat and (mostly thrift store) clothing to wear. We get by, but the budget is always tight. An extra expense or two (and there are almost always some) can make or break a month. Right now, the extra expense are constant. We are unexpectedly, but happily, expecting a baby. Because I’m 45 and my youngest child is 4, we thought these days were past us. We have medical bills to pay, a carseat to buy (I got rid of all my baby stuff. The next month I got pregnant.) Frankly, there really isn’t much extra room in the budget. I could probably apply for and receive WIC. That would give me enough extra to pay the parish a fee for a baptism class. Other places I could cut as well: last week, I made prosphora (bread for communion) for my parish. I’m sure if I asked, Father would reimburse me for my expenses. I drove the prosphora over to my pastor’s house, incurring a gas expense. I suppose I could have waited and just brought it early on Sunday morning, but it would have involved bringing my entire family to church early on Sunday, and probably would have caused Father some angst, not having the bread ahead of time. But not making the bread and delivering it might have saved me $5. I could tell my son that we cannot afford $15 for him to go to his Boy Scout event coming up. There are plenty of other ways that I could save money as well. As I said, we’re not destitute. Most likely, if my parish were to suddenly start charging a fee for a baptism class, I would simply take it out of my regular contribution to the parish - if the class cost $100, then $100 less would go into the collection that month. That’s a place I can cut, too. Sure, I would plan to make it up later, try to add it back in over time, but once it is gone, it can be hard to recover. There’s always something coming up. I could probably even go talk to the priest or parish secretary and get a waiver, but I wouldn’t. I’m not poor. I don’t want to ask for special treatment. Still, the fee would put a burden upon my family.

But what about families who are in similar situations, or even those who are truly poor? What about families who are less committed to the Church, but have a tenuous connection and desire to have their baby baptized. They’re willing to go to a class, but when a fee is mentioned, they balk. Maybe they can’t afford it. Maybe it just makes them mad. Either way, and opportunity has been lost because it places a barrier that might just be too much for some people.

Also, to put this on a more earthly level, if the faith “takes” and the child being baptized grows up to be a happy, productive, generous Catholic, the parish’s “investment” will pay off a thousand-fold.

This is the best statement yet in support of parishes being open and generous in their policies. This is the “payoff” that could be lost if we keep putting barriers between people and the sacraments.

 

[babochka]

The “class” in our parish is basically a one-two hour session with a Deacon or the priest to make sure that the parents fully intend to raise the child in the faith and they intend to continue (or begin) to practice their faith through Mass attendance, volunteering and praying for the parish family. Godparents welcome, and preferred to come so that they can fully understand that this is not simply an honorary thing.
No fees. It’s nice if they give the priest a stipend in a thank you card, but many don’t. If they ask, I recommend a dollar amount. If they don’t ask, I presume it’s not their custom or they can’t afford a stipend.
Almost all of our Baptisms occur during a Sunday Mass, so there are really no extra costs incurred. We’re all there anyway, with lights, air conditioning, and electricity running.

I am aware that some parish secretaries (not ours, but you know ) can be very persistent, and very direct when speaking to people. They don’t always speak with tact, with charity, or with a feeling of putting themselves in the other person’s shoes. They only know that Father so-and- so said THIS and THIS is the deal.

It’s unfortunate, because as we see, it gives people an excuse to walk away from the faith because something was not presented properly.

Parish employees are the invitation to community, and to family. We should behave in charity and with a smile and a good explanation and understanding about the information that we are called to give to parishioners.
Some people are ready for a fight though. I suspect that the pastors who say EVERYONE has to take the class, even the people with 6 kids, have had people fuss about his “making an exception” for some people and not others. Working with the public is fraught with peril.
LOL

But…people still get angry.
We just have to keep smiling and showing kindness…

It sounds as if these things are handled very reasonably at your parish.

 

[jbmccormick]

Interesting how the debate developed and the direction it went… toward money.

I do appreciate the replies and now I am convinced that dogma can actually change and it has. I know what Baptism used to mean but now I understand it has changed its meaning significantly to something entirely foreign to its original meaning.

Now the meaning is similar to what Protestants teach. Now Baptism is not necessary or required for the sake of the child unless the parents are deemed worthy.

Thank you all for your assistance to clarify this issue. i will have to consider it more as it is clear this is not something deemed important to the soul of the child anymore so it must be like (once considered dogma) “Limbo”. I really loved the section on Limbo in the book series (was a radio show and the books may still be available in the Catholic Answers bookstore). It was treated as absolute fact and any person including infant who was not baptized was denied entry to Heaven.

God bless to all.

 

[ajecphotos]

Thing is, having a true start in the faith by ‘real’ Catholics is very important.

Being baptised for the sake of it is surely wrong? Was it not adults that got baptised in Jesus time? Correct me if wrong.

Yes, it would be truly beneficial for a baby to be baptised. I for one think that all children should have that chance and then, if in the future they change direction they at least would have had that lovely sacrament. Babies cant choose. I know. Maybe they should be baptised as soon as possible. But, a committed family to God is so beneficial to a child.

At the end of the day, a father, a mother, have a choice. If they deem that their child should be baptised and thus have Christ in them etc then even that alone is a fantastic choice. Maybe the church should see that and let that happen even if the parents dont carry on with the faith?