No infant Baptism unless parents take class and pay fee?

[pnewton]

Here’s an example from this week of a situation that would be humiliating to explain, and where the person would also be unsure of whether they would get a waiver or not:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=913370

I bet this woman doesn’t ask for CCD waivers because she’s trying to keep up appearances.

You say “humiliating”. I say humbling. Does here situation require a greater humbling than Jesus did coming to Earth, as is told in Philippians 2?

I understand the practicality of meeting sinners where they are. For that reason, I do see the wisdom in not making CCD fees mandatory and would argue that no recourse to collect fees should be undertaken. However, if some place they are, on balance, I really do not have a lot of sympathy for the dig in your heels approach either, when one can easily pay.

As to your example, that person is expressing her need and asking for help. There is a lot of help out there, depending on the state one lives in. What she needs is counseling and direction on where to receive help beyond WIC. My wife is actually an expert at that and for almost all situations, there are options.

 

[Xantippe]

You say “humiliating”. I say humbling. Does here situation require a greater humbling than Jesus did coming to Earth, as is told in Philippians 2?

**We aren’t under instructions to humiliate each other as much as possible.

While it’s true that one ought to make an effort for one’s children (spiritually, educationally etc.) even if it involves humiliation, people who are in positions of authority need to remember to (as much as possible) preserve the dignity of people in need. **

I understand the practicality of meeting sinners where they are. For that reason, I do see the wisdom in not making CCD fees mandatory and would argue that no recourse to collect fees should be undertaken. However, if some place they are, on balance, I really do not have a lot of sympathy for the dig in your heels approach either, when one can easily pay.

As to your example, that person is expressing her need and asking for help. There is a lot of help out there, depending on the state one lives in. What she needs is counseling and direction on where to receive help beyond WIC. My wife is actually an expert at that and for almost all situations, there are options.

Yes, she’s expressing a need after years of severe privation and attempting to keep up appearances. And I bet she’s been paying CCD fees the whole time (if they have CCD fees). The reason she’s finally looking for outside help is that the wheels are coming off and she is facing disaster.

 

[jmcrae]

Anyone one either side that even considers weighing the costs of class materials versus eternal life is totally beyond my comprehension.

Perhaps we should limit the priesthood to only the wealthiest men, so that they can pay everyone’s way through life, and no one would ever have to tithe or pay any fee to the Church again.

 

[Xantippe]

Our Protestant brethren somehow manage to run Sunday schools and children’s programs for all comers and keep the lights on and employees paid without charging fees for children’s programs.

 

[buc_fan33]

Our Protestant brethren somehow manage to run Sunday schools and children’s programs for all comers and keep the lights on and employees paid without charging fees for children’s programs.

Some…not all. However, our Protestant brothers and sisters have maintained a theology and spirituality around tithing. If every person in the pews tithed, then we wouldn’t need to have this debate. Unfortunately, that’s not the case.

I have a parishioner who tells me this story. When he was 10 years old, he had a paper route as his first job. He earned $5.90 a week delivering newspapers. When he got the job, his parents sat him down and said, “Son, your mom and I give 10% of what we earn to the Church, every week, and we expect you to do the same. You make $5.90 a week. How much are you going to give to the Church each week?” The parishioner tells me that he responded, after doing some quick mental math, “59 cents dad.” “That’s right, son,” his dad replied.

Now a successful adult, this parishioner tells me that to this day, he keeps a separate account at his bank called his “tithing” account. And every time he gets any type of income–it could be his paycheck, a gift, or some other type of income–he IMMEDIATELY, as in that day, transfers 10% to his tithing account. He knows that every penny in that account must go to the poor, the Church, a charity, something. I commend this man.

If everyone did that, we wouldn’t have any issues. But, again, not everyone does that. So, there are issues. Participation in the life of the Church doesn’t just mean showing up to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days, confessing our sins once a year, or even once a month. One of the precepts of the Church is still to support the work of the Church. I think sometimes we need to be reminded of that fact. “Support the works of the Church.” is on the same plane as, “Go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days.”

In an ideal world, would I love it if publishing companies didn’t charge so much for their materials and just gave them away? Yes. Would I love it if the gas company, electric company, insurance company, and contractors all gave the Church a break because, well, it’s the Church and you’re doing the work of the Lord? Yes. Would I love it if parish staff all worked for free, didn’t take a salary, didn’t receive benefits? Well, no. Actually. I wouldn’t love that. That would be incredibly unjust. As it is, most people who work for the Church are grossly underpaid, relevant to their skills and training. I know a youth minister who ROUTINELY skips meals so as to make sure his kids have something to eat. We OWE him a just wage, as a matter of simple Christian charity and justice.

I guess, in an ideal world, we would not have to charge for catechesis, be that sacramental preparation, Bible study, whatever. However, the materials cost money, the people putting these things together have bills and a family like all the rest of us. The lights don’t keep themselves on. It’s a catch-22 with no easy solution.

 

[babochka]

The Church’s mission is to teach us and ours is to learn and co-operate with what the Church teaches. If we’re not willing to do that, how can we call ourselves Catholic. Contrary to popular opinion, we are NOT the Church.

I didn’t indicate in any way that I was not willing to cooperate with what the Church teaches. I said that I have attended a Baptism class as a Godparent, and that I have never been asked to attend one as a parent. I said that I eagerly looked forward to my marriage preparation course, only to be disappointed with the presentation and the shallow nature of the information given. Does that sound like someone who is seeking to reject the teachings of the Church?

(As an aside, we are indeed the Church, every bit as much as each priest, bishop and even the pope. The Church has Christ as its head. A heirarchy exists to protect the teachings of Christ and shepherd the people, but the priests and bishops are not the church to the exclusion of the laity. We have our role and the priests and bishops have theirs, but we are no more or less the Church than any baptized Christian. For more information on what constitutes the Church, I refer you to Lumen Gentium vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)

We don’t set the guidelines.We are members of Christ’s Holy Church and we should be very thankful for that. Baptism is just the beginning of our lifelong learning. The Church is here to teach us and sanctify us on our journey to Eternity. Not to cater to our every whim. We need to stop whimpering and roll up our sleeves, open our hearts and work with the Church, not against Her. God Bless, Memaw

The teachings and laws of the Church are one thing; poor implementation in parishes and dioceses is quite another. And how do we as laity roll up our sleeves and work with the Church? What is our role? If we see that a catechetical program is poorly designed and run and is not reaching the people that it is intended to reach, is it not our responsibility **as parts of the body of Christ **to use our God-given talents to find a better way? If we believe that charging fees for CCD programs creates a barrier to access to the teaching of the church, it is our right and responsibility as parts of the body of Christ to say so. Obedience does not oblige us to be without opinions and (name removed by moderator)ut in the practical running of parishes. This is not expecting the church to cater to our every whim, this is fulfilling our God-given role as baptized Christians. This is not solely the job of priests and bishops.

 

[babochka]

Some…not all. However, our Protestant brothers and sisters have maintained a theology and spirituality around tithing. If every person in the pews tithed, then we wouldn’t need to have this debate. Unfortunately, that’s not the case…

… I guess, in an ideal world, we would not have to charge for catechesis, be that sacramental preparation, Bible study, whatever. However, the materials cost money, the people putting these things together have bills and a family like all the rest of us. The lights don’t keep themselves on. It’s a catch-22 with no easy solution.

But Father, do you not believe that the culture can change? Are we not underestimating Catholics by thinking that this is the way things are in our church and we can never develop a culture of generous giving? We wouldn’t even need to tithe, but if we tithed, just imagine what we could do. We often have this discussion in my parish because we parishioners only provide about 1/2 of the support required for our bare minimum operating expenses. (The other 1/2 comes from benefactors outside the parish). We’re always talking about ways to become self-supporting as a parish. We’re only 22 families, but say we were 200 families. If 200 families increased their giving by $10 a month, at the end of the year, that would equal $24,000. If just 100 families increased their giving by that amount, it would equal $12,000. Surely, that would pay for the books and miscellaneous expenses of a CCD program in any medium sized parish?

A handful of parishes and dioceses in the US have successfully encouraged greater stewardship, with impressive results. Can we step out in faith and try? I know that it takes a special pastor to be able to pull this off. I do know how “money talks” are usually taken in parishes. I don’t know the answer and I certainly am not the one personally responsible for paying the bills at the end of the month, but I’m deeply disturbed by the system that we have because I think it creates a barrier to catechesis and the sacraments.

 

[Xantippe]

The teachings and laws of the Church are one thing; poor implementation in parishes and dioceses is quite another. And how do we as laity roll up our sleeves and work with the Church? What is our role? If we see that a catechetical program is poorly designed and run and is not reaching the people that it is intended to reach, is it not our responsibility **as parts of the body of Christ **to use our God-given talents to find a better way? If we believe that charging fees for CCD programs creates a barrier to access to the teaching of the church, it is our right and responsibility as parts of the body of Christ to say so. Obedience does not oblige us to be without opinions and (name removed by moderator)ut in the practical running of parishes. This is not expecting the church to cater to our every whim, this is fulfilling our God-given role as baptized Christians. This is not solely the job of priests and bishops.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

But Father, do you not believe that the culture can change? Are we not underestimating Catholics by thinking that this is the way things are in our church and we can never develop a culture of generous giving? We wouldn’t even need to tithe, but if we tithed, just imagine what we could do. We often have this discussion in my parish because we parishioners only provide about 1/2 of the support required for our bare minimum operating expenses. (The other 1/2 comes from benefactors outside the parish). We’re always talking about ways to become self-supporting as a parish. We’re only 22 families, but say we were 200 families. If 200 families increased their giving by $10 a month, at the end of the year, that would equal $24,000. If just 100 families increased their giving by that amount, it would equal $12,000. Surely, that would pay for the books and miscellaneous expenses of a CCD program in any medium sized parish?

A handful of parishes and dioceses in the US have successfully encouraged greater stewardship, with impressive results. Can we step out in faith and try? I know that it takes a special pastor to be able to pull this off. I do know how “money talks” are usually taken in parishes. I don’t know the answer and I certainly am not the one personally responsible for paying the bills at the end of the month, but I’m deeply disturbed by the system that we have because I think it creates a barrier to catechesis and the sacraments.

Yes. Our family gives 10% net (we’d eventually like to move toward 10% gross) almost every month to our parishes (usually two), our local Caritas, other good organizations (primarily Catholic), and individuals with particular needs (we give a check every time there’s a new baby among the graduate students we know). We start the month with that amount in hand and typically spend it all by the end of the month. It’s very similar to what buc_fan33 described his acquaintance doing. We started doing the 10% net about 7 years ago when we started doing the Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover plan as part of our budget process:

daveramsey.com/new/baby-steps/

Previously, our giving had been very hit or miss. We are materially pretty comfortable now–I understand that poorer families would find it much more difficult to manage 10%.

I would actually encourage any pastors or DREs here to consider hosting a reputable personal finance course regularly at your parish. The results may surprise you.

In any case, I agree with babochka. To stick with a pay-for-service model as the norm for supporting catechetical programs is to accept defeat. It means that you believe that the parents or children you are teaching will never amount to anything as Catholics, so that you might as well squeeze them for baptism class and CCD fees, because they won’t be back until it’s time for the next sacrament. That’s a depressing model and it also probably means accepting a death spiral for your parish. If we really believed that those classes were forming committed, well-catechized Catholics, we wouldn’t worry about $50 bucks here or there, because we’d know that $50 would be a drop in the bucket compared to their normal level of giving.

What reason is there for hope? Well, for one thing, there is a lot of cross-pollinization happening between American Protestants and Catholics, and one of the things that Protestants are often good at is teaching and practicing giving. I personally grew up in a Protestant denomination (the Assemblies of God) and I’ve seen lots of bright young Protestants convert. I’m also trying to teach giving to my kids (although I’m a little off my game right now). In the next year or two, I would like to facilitate Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University class at our local college chaplaincy and if that is OKed, I am planning to scholarship a number of students.

There is no reason to accept mediocrity.

 

[buc_fan33]

But Father, do you not believe that the culture can change?

Yes! absolutely! Wholeheartedly!

 

[DarkLight]

I can say I’m glad there was no fee for RCIA in our parish. As a grad student I’m not sure what I would have done - I’d probably have been too embarrassed to ask for anything and there’s a good chance I might not have gone. It was hard enough asking to arrange things because I couldn’t make half the classes (there was a course I needed to take that was only offered on the same night as RCIA).

And so far I consider my charitable contribution to be keeping myself from needing more charity.

 

[TheCronks1979]

It appears the dogma of Baptism being required and never refused to a child (infant) has changed. When the local parish was asked to schedule a Baptism for our infant we were told this would not be possible unless both parents took a class and a fee was paid.

I have no problem with the fee to cover costs and instruction is always good. But there are times when this is not convenient or even nearly impossible. Adding insult to injury, “witnesses” were required to attend or the Baptism would be denied.

After decades of study and internal conversion, I have begun to question the Church.

I haven’t read all of the responses you received so if I’m repeating, I’m sorry. As far as classes, I’ve known many fellow Catholics who believe that being a godparent meant that they would take custody of the child in the event that both parents passed away. This is not what the Catholic Church requires godparents for.Who would raise a child should her parents pass on is a completely separate matter, and one for legal counsel. Yet there are even parents who think that their child’s fate, should they pass on, is sealed by the fact that they chose “godparents” Sometimes you even hear of parents wishing to change godparents years later when the ones they had chosen have made choices they dont’ approve of, believing that their children would be subjected to the consequences of these choices’. But as you probably know, the purpose of godparents is to help the child learn, practice, and love the faith. They assist living parents with this and take that role if the parents die. But many don’t know that. There are also ways in which godparents are to play their role in the child’s life, and these are covered, too, in the classes.

Also, sometimes parents choose friends and relatives closest to them that are not practicing Catholics, or Catholic at all. One of the purposes of these classes is to ensure that the godparents are Catholic, versed in the faith, and willing to take on the responsiblities of teaching the CATHOLIC faith to these children if the parents are no longer there to do it.
As for fees, lights, books, teachers, all cost money for the Church like everyone else.