No, it's NOT ok...

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I’m sorry for my ignorance 😦 I thought the Lutheran church was named for Martin Luther…hence the tracing back to the Protestant Movement. I’m sorry if this was in error.

Jon, I guess the means to an end may not seem all that different on a grand scale, but I KNOW what the Eucharist is. The communion I took as a Methodist is different than the Eucharist in that it’s the Body and Blood. These “means”, and others (like reconciliation, etc) seem to be the dividing points on these boards.

You ARE right…we are all united by our love of Christ and our love FROM Christ. Maybe those differences don’t matter…but can all sides see it? Does that make sense?

Sorry…I am a well educated woman who writes poetry, but I seem to be tongue tied with my thoughts right now. I have a sick husband and 2 sick kids…if I don’t respond tonight, I will tomorrow 🙂

Peace Be With You All!
Thank you so much for helping me grow!
 
=heathernoel;5944884]I’m sorry for my ignorance 😦 I thought the Lutheran church was named for Martin Luther…hence the tracing back to the Protestant Movement. I’m sorry if this was in error.
Actually, the name Lutheran, like Roman Catholic, has its origins as a slur or pejorative. Correctly, it is Evangelical, or Evangelical Catholic, or Catholic of the Augsburg Confession. As yes, we share a common history prior to 1530.
Sorry…I am a well educated woman who writes poetry, but I seem to be tongue tied with my thoughts right now. I have a sick husband and 2 sick kids…if I don’t respond tonight, I will tomorrow 🙂
The rest of our dialogue can wait. Prayers for healing for your family.

Jon
 
There’s a book you might want to read. It’s *The Right to Be Wrong: Ending the Culture War Over Religion in America *by Kevin Seamus Hasson.
 
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You ARE right…we are all united by our love of Christ and our love FROM Christ. Maybe those differences don’t matter…

Sorry…I am a well educated woman who writes poetry, but I seem to be tongue tied with my thoughts right now. I have a sick husband and 2 sick kids…if I don’t respond tonight, I will tomorrow 🙂

Peace Be With You All!
Thank you so much for helping me grow!
Amen…Lord I lift up heathers hubby and kids…Touch them with Your healing touch…Give her the energy to minister to them…Bless them abundantly and draw them closer to You for the days ahead…Let them be Your fragrance to the believers and unbelievers alike…In Christ…amen
 
During the catechesis portion of RCIA today, we were discussing the movement in today’s American society to say “anything goes” as long as you don’t mention God or Christ. The feeling among my classmates and I was that on one hand, we need to make changes in our corner of the world…“Merry Christmas” instead of “Season’s Greetings”, Grace before meals at home AND in public, etc. In the same 5 minutes, they came full circle and were preaching how we need to be tolerant of different views.

Which one is it? How do you find a balance between standing up for your beliefs as a Catholic and wanting to show the Love Christ carried for all of us? My point was that Christ WASN’T politically correct. He denounced the pharisees, emphasized that wealth does not equal salvation, etc. How can we stand beside people who don’t hold our beliefs, and say it’s Ok that you believe (in abortion, divorce, Mohammed, etc)?

TIA,
Peace Be With You
Heather
It is easy to find that balance. Simply…live your religion as if you believed in it…but don’t force others to live it as well.

So…wish people “Merry Christmas” …unless you KNOW that they are Jewish or ??? Then wish them 'Happy…" whatever holiday they are celebrating. If you want to decorate your lawn for Christmas, decorate your lawn for Christmas—and give your Jewish neighbor a simple Channuka gift. If something prompts you to make the sign of the cross in public…DO that and don’t be ashamed of doing that. OR of praying before meals. OR of sharing your faith with others.

That’s the ‘live your religion’ part–and PART of 'not forcing them to live yours."

The rest of it is, of course, you don’t object to others living their religion, either. Just as THEIR freedom of religion does not mean that they must be free from the sight and sound of yours, the reverse applies to you.

I had a neighbor (I"ve since moved…but he’s still a friend) who is one of the most outspoken atheists I’ve ever met. When he first moved in next door to us, he would make our Christmases a real pain in the posterior; he absolutely REFUSED to get into the spirit of Christmas decorating, and would grump and grumble…and actually complained to the city about the ‘light pollution,’ claiming that a: the lights kept him awake and that b: they interfered with HIS freedom ‘from’ religion.

About the third year into the rapidly growing feud, a few neighbors got together (because, frankly, every OTHER season of the year he was actually a rather handy guy to have around; helpful and kind) and got him a Thanksgiving gift.: a lawn ornament for him to display during the Christmas season…a pink unicorn with a Darwin fish necklace.

He laughed so hard I thought he was going to have an asthma attack…but he displayed them every year after that. He’s never become religious, but he HAS become a great deal more tolerant…and because WE were tolerant of HIS opinions, he became a great deal more tolerant of ours.

…and eventually his wife put a creche on the lawn next to his unicorn.
 
I think PC can go to far, but I have no problem with happy holidays. I always try to reverse the situation. How would I feel if I was wished a happy (insert holiday you don’t celebrate here) Gets old. So. I’ve no problem wishing those I don’t know happy holidays and those I know who are Christian a Merry Christmas.
I was just talking about this the other day. I figure, since I’m a Christian, I’ll say Merry Christmas to everyone. If someone who is Jewish wants to wish me a Happy Hannakah, I’ll say thank you.

That is a good example though, of knowing when to “choose your battles” so to speak. I wouldn’t pick the moment someone wished me a Happy Hannaka to not accept their good wishes and try to evangelize them.
 
dont forget Jesus was not politically correct. when he seen wrong he called it wrong no matterwhat anyone thought. no matter what the consequinces he spoke truth told you if you were wrong wether you liked it or not. not saying you have to be ugly to make a point but dont refraim from telling a person they are wrong, stand up be bold and defend our Lord, our King as he would for us.👍
 
Happy Holidays doesn;t bother me too much. After all, we have the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, Christmas, Holy Family, New Years, etc
 
Y’know, now that I think of it, Jesus rarely singled out specific sinners unless He was provoked by more than just the knowledge that they were sinners. Although He certainly didn’t hold back or sugar coat things for them, He normally did speak out against their sins in the context of public speaking and speeches. Aside from the incident with turning over tables in the temple, He actually spoke in ways that, though not “politically correct,” could by no means be considered harassment even by “polite society” standards. He preached what He thought (well, being Jesus, what He knew 🙂 ), and preached it in public, but I scarcely read in the Gospels where He harassed an individual; for instance, if someone tried to walk away from one of His public sermons, and it is not unreasonable to believe someone might have from time to time, nowhere do I see Him saying “Hey you! You’re the sinner I’m talking to.”

It appears to me that Jesus preached passionately, and not “politically correctly”, but also in a very “Take it or leave it” manner that would only [directly] interfere in the lives of individuals who ultimately wanted to listen, aside from the consequences of the next life of course. It seems Jesus spoke of, and condemned, sin directly and frankly, but usually left the sinner to realize for himself that he was guilty. Instead of saying “Hey Joe, you’re fornicating, and that’s a sin,” in the Gospels Jesus seemed more the type to speak out publicly, within ear-shot of Joe, about several things being sinful, among which would be fornication–note that Joe has no reason during the whole thing to think he as an individual is being singled out, harassed, or humiliated. Instead, Joe would realize, due to simple and obvious deductive reasoning, that the designation of “sinner” would apply to him as well, with whatever consequences would come with it if he did not repent. Even with the woman at the well, to whom Jesus does directly say the equivalent of “I know what you’ve done,” He doesn’t follow up with anything preachy, and seems instead to realize that–since she already has enough information to know Who He is and what He stands for–she knows He does not approve without having to be brow beaten. From there on, she is free to hear Him out on the details of His theology if she wishes. In her case, her reaction indicates she does.

The closest Jesus comes to directly targeting sinners (as opposed to sin) was when speaking against the Pharisees. Even this wasn’t the equivalent, however, of relentlessly stalking stubborn sinners who nonetheless only wanted to go about their own business. The Pharisees were self-righteous, judgmental, and at times directly provoked Jesus. They were quick to condemn sins they didn’t struggle with–such as fornication, etc–but not so quick to condemn sins they themselves struggled with, such as greed and heardheartedness. Because they were public figures, potentially leading so many people astray with their half-truths, the only proportionate response to them was to publically correct them; Jesus could afford to leave no doubt about their hypocrisy if He didn’t want the common people thinking things such as “Okay, adultery’s wrong, but greed’s alright, because the Pharisees never touch on it.” Besides that, even His preaching against the Pharisees was usually condemning their collective or typical actions rather than singling out an individual Pharisee and hounding him until he either threw up his hands in defeat or told Jesus to leave him alone. He even had dinner with a Pharisee and there seems to be no indication that it was going unpleasantly; in fact this one-on-one interaction is a rare case where, even when the Pharisee showed contempt for a fellow sinner, Jesus’ method of correcting him wasn’t particularly scathing, possibly because the Pharisee wasn’t proudly displaying that contempt outwardly.

All in all, it seems one-on-one conversation with Jesus might, for all we know, have been quite friendly, possibly even for a stubborn sinner as long as that sinner knew where Jesus stood on the matter and wasn’t the one proudly bringing up the subject…and also so long as the sinner didn’t have the audacity to show disgust or harassment toward some other individual sinner while reveling in his own pride.

So even though Jesus was not at all politically correct, it doesn’t necessarily follow that He was what I think we would ordinarily call rude. It appears that, even for Jesus, being uncompromising and bold did not necessarily mean being as “in your face” as sometimes He is perceived to have been, at least not so far as I can see.

Even Paul, as easily angered as he was, appears to condone harsh reactions to individual sinners only insofar as they simultaneously claimed to be Christian and made it appear that their sinful actions were acceptable in the Faith. This is similar to Jesus’ treatment of the Pharisees, and is more concerned with proud “Christian” sinners misleading believers than with individuals who didn’t claim to be Christian at all or who, although Christian, didn’t profess or make it appear that their sins were compatible with their Faith. An example of those Paul condemned would be such people–Catholic or otherwise–as who not only disobey Church Teaching but teach or give the impression that this is perfectly compatible with Catholicism. I would also think, as non-Christians go, bogus attempts–as such attempts always are–to “debunk” Christianity would register as similar deception and warrant similar anger, due to possibly misleading sincere Christians into giving up faith. It seems to be deception, which can make even honest Christians stray, that gets Paul’s blood most boiling, as it did to Jesus, as indeed it should do the same to us.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
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