No Kneelers

[JOL]

Long story short, I believe I am reverting back to the Roman Catholic Church. The Lord is working on me and I am seeking and finding answers, and following in obedience. As part of that, I would like to find a parish. It is important to me that the parish has a vibrant Children’s ministry. I would like my kids to be involved and love going to the Catholic church just as they love going to the Baptist church.

I found that, it seems based on the info on this church website, but then read this:

The pews were designed without kneelers. Standing is a position of respect and reverence. This age-old posture for prayer is the norm at St. Bernadette. Standing enables us to give praise and thanksgiving with our whole being. It shows our readiness to live out what we are celebrating.

I looked into this because a Catholic church without a kneeler is not the norm I know. So I found the information below.

From EWTN:

No kneelers. The liturgical law says we are to kneel, it does not require kneelers. There can only be one of two reasons a Catholic church would be built without kneelers or would remove them. Either the pastor is faithful and wants his people to do some penance by kneeling on the floor, in which case they should oblige him, or, he intends to disobey the liturgical law of the Roman Rite, in which case they should obey the Church. Naturally, if it is too hard for them to kneel then they are excused by n.43.

Based on the answer from EWTN on ‘no kneelers’, is this church in the wrong?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

It is the Bishop of the diocese who, in general, can make the rules regarding postures of the laity. There are some guidelines that need to be followed, but again, the Bishop is ultimately responsible.

EWTN is a great resource, but it is always best to check with the Pastor of the parish first. He can give you the details and explanations you are looking for.

 

[InLight247]

Long story short, I believe I am reverting back to the Roman Catholic Church. The Lord is working on me and I am seeking and finding answers, and following in obedience. As part of that, I would like to find a parish. It is important to me that the parish has a vibrant Children’s ministry. I would like my kids to be involved and love going to the Catholic church just as they love going to the Baptist church.

I found that, it seems based on the info on this church website, but then read this:

I looked into this because a Catholic church without a kneeler is not the norm I know. So I found the information below.

From EWTN:

Based on the answer from EWTN on ‘no kneelers’, is this church in the wrong?

No kneeler is wrong. That is modernism, the progressive mentality to destroy the Church.
Even there is no kneeler, we still can knee.

Just think about this: if you truly believe the Eucharist you receive is the Real Presence, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus, the Creator of you and the Creator of the entire universe, would you not want to pay him the highest reverence? Does kneeling or does standing show more reverence and the correct way to worship?

And the Scripture has said every knee shall bow to Jesus.

 

[Sockio]

I always assumed that it was mandatory to always pray on your knees. When I attend church services, I pray there on my knees. When I pray in my house, I’m on my knees. I’ve never heard of this “No Kneeling” rule before.

 

[sirach2v4]

You seem to have found the essential technical explanation.

There is a “new” church locally that has linked chairs, no kneelers – no pews, either. It’s hard to go to church with a coat on, because there’s no room for it. No room for a hymnal or song card.

This is one of the churches that has people talking the loudest before Mass. They don’t stop when the church bell rings before mass. The priest uses a hand bell to get their attention, but that only cuts things back about 1/3. The people seem to come to order when the singing starts.

Standing, in my opinion, is not required :“for respect” – Usually there’s a tabernacle in the church so according to this rule we should never sit or kneel. It’s just a man-made rule, and I think the purpose is to keep people more alert during Mass – there’s no “theory” or “theology” to it. When nuns take vows or deacons or priests ordained, they often prostrate themselves on the floor as a sign of humility. so, which is it? Stand or prostrate?

I can neither kneel nor stand for long times. It’s hard for me to walk.

 

[TheDoctor]

The posture of reverence depends on the culture. For example, I believe our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters stand as an act of reverence. In the West we generally consider kneeling to be the reverent posture. Neither is better. Neither is wrong.

The GIRM calls for kneeling so that is the posture we should follow in the US. If the Church does not have kneelers we can still kneel. However, the Church also does not ask us to do the impossible. For example, if there is no room to kneel or our physical condition prevents it, we don’t have to.

I personally hate “parish shopping” - your parish is the one where you live - so I will respectfully bow out of the rest of the “is the church wrong” discussion.

I pray you find some place that feeds you and, oh yes, WELCOME HOME!

 

[TheDoctor]

I always assumed that it was mandatory to always pray on your knees. When I attend church services, I pray there on my knees. When I pray in my house, I’m on my knees. I’ve never heard of this “No Kneeling” rule before.

You can pray in any posture that you want. The Church only stipulates the posture at certain points in the Mass.

I pray on my knees, driving my car, running at the gym, etc. He wants to talk to you and wants you to talk to him - that is the main point so whatever works best for you is best for you.

 

[St_Francis]

It is the Bishop of the diocese who, in general, can make the rules regarding postures of the laity. There are some guidelines that need to be followed, but again, the Bishop is ultimately responsible.

EWTN is a great resource, but it is always best to check with the Pastor of the parish first. He can give you the details and explanations you are looking for.

Kneeling during the Consecration is one of the guidelines that need to be followed in the Western Church. The material presented in the link by EWTN is correct.

I used to go to a parish that did this. I was extremely unhappy about the situation all around, and looked into the matter. Speaking with the priest who made the decision was not at all helpful as he had his mind made up and was determined to impose “unity” on all of us. there were things he had done before that which I had asked him about and he basically told me that he was trained in liturgy. He did not explain at all: the implication was that since he was trained in liturgy, I was only allowed to “pay, pray, and obey.”

 

[JOL]

I personally hate “parish shopping” - your parish is the one where you live - so I will respectfully bow out of the rest of the “is the church wrong” discussion.

I pray you find some place that feeds you and, oh yes, WELCOME HOME!

Thank you for the welcome…and DITTO on the “parish shopping”. I am going to give my more local parish a call and see about Childrens/Youth ministries. The one closest to my house, while it did have CCD years ago, didn’t do anything beyond that with youth. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that we can go to any one on the planet, Mass is the same.

 

[AKDee]

My parish in Alaska has kneelers and we sit, kneel or stand at different points of the liturgy. I recently attended my step-sister’s parish in NY and they had no kneelers. I just watched what the other parishioners did and at the points in the liturgy where I am used to kneeling, they stood so I did too. Kneeling would have been a difficult proposition anyway, since the pews were very close together.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and their publications and commentary on the GIRM

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm
*Gestures and Bodily Posture

1. The gestures and bodily posture of both the Priest, the Deacon, and the ministers, and also of the people, must be conducive to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, to making clear the true and full meaning of its different parts, and to fostering the participation of all.[52] Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.*

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Kneeling during the Consecration is one of the guidelines that need to be followed in the Western Church. The material presented in the link by EWTN is correct.

I used to go to a parish that did this. I was extremely unhappy about the situation all around, and looked into the matter. Speaking with the priest who made the decision was not at all helpful as he had his mind made up and was determined to impose “unity” on all of us. there were things he had done before that which I had asked him about and he basically told me that he was trained in liturgy. He did not explain at all: the implication was that since he was trained in liturgy, I was only allowed to “pay, pray, and obey.”

No, EWTN is not correct, and the implications that are (name removed by moderator)lied in said passage are actually quite disturbing.

As you can see from what Dom Ruggerio posted below, we do not have enough information to come to the conclusion that anything is improper.

From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and their publications and commentary on the GIRM

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm
*Gestures and Bodily Posture

1. The gestures and bodily posture of both the Priest, the Deacon, and the ministers, and also of the people, must be conducive to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, to making clear the true and full meaning of its different parts, and to fostering the participation of all.[52] Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause*. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

 

[pianistclare]

No kneeler is wrong. That is modernism, the progressive mentality to destroy the Church.
Even there is no kneeler, we still can knee.

Just think about this: if you truly believe the Eucharist you receive is the Real Presence, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus, the Creator of you and the Creator of the entire universe, would you not want to pay him the highest reverence? Does kneeling or does standing show more reverence and the correct way to worship?

And the Scripture has said every knee shall bow to Jesus.

um… you do realize that some of the major cathedrals in Europe don’t have kneelers right?
One doesn’t need kneelers to kneel.
Our church has kneelers but the Bishop has mandated that we stand.
Having the kneelers or not having them is not the point.

As has been said, OP. discuss with your pastor.

 

[Dmitri77]

um… you do realize that some of the major cathedrals in Europe don’t have kneelers right?
One doesn’t need kneelers to kneel.
Our church has kneelers but the Bishop has mandated that we stand.
Having the kneelers or not having them is not the point.

As has been said, OP. discuss with your pastor.

Many of them don’t even have pews and never had. For centuries people stood during church services.

 

[pianistclare]

Many of them don’t even have pews and never had. For centuries people stood during church services.

Yup. It helps to know church history.
Kneelers are not an indicator of piety. They are furniture.

Do people prefer them? Sure.
Is it “modernist”? nope.

 

[andrewstx]

I am sure that people are aware that Mother Angelica had a stroke some years ago and is not capable of kneeling now.

I had a stroke myself along with other problems. I cannot kneel myself. I get along in church on a rollator.

It is a mistake to ask that everybody use the same posture, for not all have the same abilities.

 

[sirach2v4]

In the parish that I belong to, the pastor announced a change, that people were supposed to stand while Communion was being distributed.

Vaguely, I squint my eyes and see a parallel, that we stand when we “receive” the Word of God, and, in parallel, we are supposed to stand when we “receive” the Eucharist. Everybody doing this together is a sign of community.

What I don’t like is “changing” – when there was a rationale for what we did before, and now a rationale for the new practice. It makes me feel 1) like I was lied to before and 2) I don’t like to be forced to make a change to a practice that is less comfortable than it was before. 3) It takes a long time to get accommodated to the change, especially when the result is, half the people “didn’t get the memo” and don’t follow even the example of those who “did get the memo.”

As I said previously, I think all the different postures have thin rationalization and that the underlying motivation is to keep people more alert. Recall, those of you who remember, the server used to ring a bell at the consecration to call people’s attention to it, and away from the rosary they were reciting during Mass.

things don’t stop with sit-stand-kneel. Once or twice a year there are processions, and I can see dancing in our future. The constant changes are to shake everybody up. As Benedict XVI wrote about the Mass, the priest’s innovations become a distraction from being mentally involved in the Mass and people are distracted towards trying to figure out, what’s next?

At one Mass there was a baby baptism. after the baptism, the mom was supposed to dress the baby. Well, she disappeared into the sacristy and emerged some 8 minutes later, while we were all awaiting her return.

Did you ever witness a one-hour homily? We have these annual Marian devotions, and the priest ran through all the major things anybody knew about Mary (already) and at the end he proudly said, I guess I’ve spoken long enough. And, I have to tell you he spoke for one hour without notes.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I am sure that people are aware that Mother Angelica had a stroke some years ago and is not capable of kneeling now.

I had a stroke myself along with other problems. I cannot kneel myself. I get along in church on a rollator.

It is a mistake to ask that everybody use the same posture, for not all have the same abilities.

I am sorry if I am the one to convey this news to you…Mother Angelica died this past Easter.

 

[andrewstx]

I am sorry if I am the one to convey this news to you…Mother Angelica died this past Easter.

May she have eternal memory.

 

[utah_rose]

Thank you for the welcome…and DITTO on the “parish shopping”. I am going to give my more local parish a call and see about Childrens/Youth ministries. The one closest to my house, while it did have CCD years ago, didn’t do anything beyond that with youth. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that we can go to any one on the planet, Mass is the same.

If your local parish doesn’t have children activities. I. Would see if a neighboring parish does. Sometimes parishioners are welcome from neighboring churches. I think it’s really important to have a good CCD program and other activities as children can drift away when they’re older. Unfortunately many parishes don’t. Also in re to kneeler so, European cathedrals don’t have kneelers and many not pews either. I’m an older person with arthritis and sometimes feel standing is a better option.