NO Kneelers

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boppaid

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At our church, there are no kneelers. This is a church I have been going to for years, and just love! My brother finds this troubling, and for that reason, won’t go to mass there unless it is an event for my children (i.e., communion, baptism, etc.)

What is the Church’s stance on no kneelers? Is this considered an abuse? No preferred? Our pastor is a canon lawyer who served as a canon judge. I always felt confident that he knows what he’s doing. (And still do…I love the man!) But I’m troubled by my brother’s reaction.
 
I don’t know what the Church’s stance is, but when I visit Europe there have been many older churches/cathedrals that do not have kneelers. Some don’t even have pews, but individual chairs. During mass, I would see people either kneel on the floor or just stand during when you would think people would kneel. I think having kneelers is more of a US thing and I remember as a kid being a little troubled visiting a parish that also didn’t have kneelers. (Actually I was more troubled by the fact that it looked like a gym/hall and was treated like one when there was no mass. They’d move the chairs and alter out of the way to have basketball games, etc.) It wasn’t until I started going to Europe that I realized that there weren’t kneelers or chairs in the really old churches, so it wasn’t anything new at this newer church that I visited in the US.
 
I don’t know anything about what the church says, but I have been to parishes where there were no kneelers, and generally you just kneel on the floor. I was even in cathedrals in europe where there were no kneelers, and the women of the church had a group where they made kneeling pillows for the seats.
 
I don’t know. The only churchs I have been in in the last were the churches in Italy, including St. Peters.

Peace

Tim
 
From Redemtionis Sacramentum:
  1. “According to the structure of each church building and in accordance with legitimate local customs, the Most Holy Sacrament is to be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is noble, prominent, readily visible, and adorned in a dignified manner” and furthermore “suitable for prayer” by reason of the quietness of the location, the space available in front of the tabernacle, and also the supply of benches or seats and kneelers."
Here in the U.S., the laity are required to kneel at specified times during the Mass. From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, in section 43:

“In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer…The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.”
 
BigFeet said:
From Redemtionis Sacramentum:
  1. “According to the structure of each church building and in accordance with legitimate local customs, the Most Holy Sacrament is to be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is noble, prominent, readily visible, and adorned in a dignified manner” and furthermore “suitable for prayer” by reason of the quietness of the location, the space available in front of the tabernacle, and also the supply of benches or seats and kneelers."
Here in the U.S., the laity are required to kneel at specified times during the Mass. From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, in section 43:

“In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer…The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.”
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Thank you for posting that. I have to say,t hough, that I’m not quite sure what that means. Can the church get in trouble for this? Since he is a canon lawyer, I’m wondering if there is some sort of loophole in this? He is a very consciencious priest.
 
Can’t help either - all the churches I can think of that don’t have kneelers have both carpet (which is usually fine to kneel on by itself) AND those little kneeler cushions.

Maybe tell him to bring a cushion of his own? I was touched a while back, while attending a Methodist church for a friend’s wedding, to see all the beautiful hand-made cushions (some looking like heirlooms) placed about the pews.
 
boppaid said:
Thank you for posting that. I have to say,t hough, that I’m not quite sure what that means. Can the church get in trouble for this? Since he is a canon lawyer, I’m wondering if there is some sort of loophole in this? He is a very consciencious priest.
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It’s something that should be brought to the attention of your bishop. He probably already knows about this, but we cannot assume. Like it or not, the fact remains that there are priests and bishops out there who choose not to follow the teachings of the Church. It’s up to the laity to educate themselves as to what is proper, and act accordingly.

We are also bound under Canon law to report liturgical abuses, first to the local bishop, and then to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome. The other option is to join a parish that is in union with the Church. Unfortunately, in some locals that may be hard to find.
 
Sarabande said:
I don’t know what the Church’s stance is, but when I visit Europe there have been many older churches/cathedrals that do not have kneelers. Some don’t even have pews, but individual chairs. During mass, I would see people either kneel on the floor or just stand during when you would think people would kneel. I think having kneelers is more of a US thing and I remember as a kid being a little troubled visiting a parish that also didn’t have kneelers. (Actually I was more troubled by the fact that it looked like a gym/hall and was treated like one when there was no mass. They’d move the chairs and alter out of the way to have basketball games, etc.) It wasn’t until I started going to Europe that I realized that there weren’t kneelers or chairs in the really old churches, so it wasn’t anything new at this newer church that I visited in the US.
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I found this article. Here is an excerpt.
"Regarding kneelers as furniture, I would presume they were relatively late. Originally there were no pieces of furniture for the ‘circumstantes’ (those standing about), simply a chair for the president. As a concession to the infirm, stone seats began to be attached to pillars, or to the walls. By the end of the 13th century many churches in England appear to have some wooden benches—often called pews.
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"When kneelers began to be attached to the pews, I do not know. Pews become common as printing becomes more common and we pass from a manuscript culture [where books were rare and more often heard than read] to a print culture [with wide distribution of books]. People line up in pews in churches as words line up on a page.
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As was quoted earlier, the only need for ‘kneelers’ is near the tabernacle. And that would be for private devotion, not for the Mass.

There is no requirement that a church provide kneelers for people to use. It’s nice so that people don’t have to kneel on a hard floor but parishes aren’t required to be ‘nice’ in this area.

Perhaps I am wrong but it sounds to me like the real issue here is that there is no kneeling in this church, not that there is a lack of kneelers.
 
My new church (I recently moved to Belgium) has no kneelers, or kneeling pads, and individual chairs. And no one kneels, not even during the consecration. It unnerves me. The first time I attended, we sat in the back, and I attempted to kneel on the floor, but the spacing of the chairs is such that it was nearly impossible, even for someone on the small side like myself, and I hurt myself trying to wedge myself in there, without knocking into other people’s legs and backs (and called a lot of undue attention to me, and away from the altar, which I don’t want to do).

Now I remain seated with the others, but bow my head deeply.

This is a very active, traditional parish by Belgian standards, and our pastor is orthodox in every other way I can see, and the members of the parish (I’d say about 90% are over the age of 60) seem very devout, thoughtful, and holy, but see no problem with the sitting. DH’s grandmother told me their used to be pews, with kneelers, but they were removed from almost all churches and replaced with the chairs after Vatican II.
 
I hate to repeat myself on multiple threads which cover the same topics, but apparently it is necessary.

There are churches which were designed with pews or other seating but without kneelers (remember that there are many churches, including cathedrals in Europe which have neither pews nor kneelers). Seating arrangements in churches with pews which lack kneelers will accommodate more people in a smaller floor space. As building costs are related to square footage, the cost of building a church for a thousand worshippers is lower if it is designed without pews. If the rubrics which allowed the construction of the church to these parameters change, the reconstruction of the church to add kneelers is costly and reduces the seating capacity. For this reason it is unlikely that the pastor would alter the seating arrangement. Please note further that the chancery office is always consulted regarding the architectural design of a new church building. The chancery is well aware of how the church is built and approval was given at the time it was built.
If the church has pews but no kneelers, it is usually very awkward to try to kneel. As a result many parishes without kneelers stand from the preface to communion. The directives from the council of bishops and the GIRM should be treated with respect, but they are not as hard and fast as some would like to think.

Matthew
 
In a recent letter to Adoremus, Canadian lawyer Hugh Ballantyne
added a linguistic note to our biblical citations. “In the Greek New
Testament”, he writes, "is the verb proskyneo, and it means ‘kneel
before’. In the Latin Vulgate it is translated as ‘adoro’; in the King
James Version, as ‘worship’; and in the Douai-Rheims, as ‘adore’.
Wherever you see ‘worship’ in the KJV New Testament, think ‘kneel before’.

“In this biblical sense to worship God is to kneel before God. The
biblical root of our concept of worship is a word that means ‘kneel’. If
we are not kneeling, we are not worshipping”, he observed. “We stand for
the national anthem. But we kneel before God, and we worship Him alone,
because the Bible tells us so”.

adoremus.org/1002Kneeling.html

After all, “lex orandi, lex credendi” (loosely translated as, “how we pray shows what we believe”). During the consecration, we truly are at the foot of the cross 2,000 years ago, where Jesus is sacrificing Himself for our sins, and we should act accordingly.

Note: Unlike the U.S., Europe does not have the requirement to kneel during Mass. But then again, with some exceptions, most of their churches are nearly empty now.
 
There are no kneelers for the choir at my church. During the Consecration, I get up from the piano bench and kneel right down on the floor. I return to the bench while the priest genuflects after consecrating the wine.
 
boppaid said:
At our church, there are no kneelers. This is a church I have been going to for years, and just love! My brother finds this troubling, and for that reason, won’t go to mass there unless it is an event for my children (i.e., communion, baptism, etc.)
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Are you saying that he won’t go to mass at all because there are no kneelers? That seems like an odd reason. Maybe there is something more than just the kneelers that’s bothering him and the kneelers are an excuse not to go. You would know better than me though, he’s your brother.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
Are you saying that he won’t go to mass at all because there are no kneelers? That seems like an odd reason. Maybe there is something more than just the kneelers that’s bothering him and the kneelers are an excuse not to go. You would know better than me though, he’s your brother.
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No…he just doesn’t go to this particular church unless it’s for something for my children. (baptisms, communion, etc.) Otherwise, he’s shopping around for a church he likes. (Newly married and moved to the area.)
 
pprimeau1976 said:
Are you saying that he won’t go to mass at all because there are no kneelers? That seems like an odd reason. Maybe there is something more than just the kneelers that’s bothering him and the kneelers are an excuse not to go. You would know better than me though, he’s your brother.
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I think he just meant that his brother wouldn’t attend mass at that particular church, not that he avoids mass completely. he probably just goes to a church with kneelers.

I can understand not being comfortable in a church without kneelers. If I had to choose between two churches - the only major difference being one had kneelers and the other didn’t, I would go to the kneeling church.

The cathedral I was confirmed in had little chairs with kneelers, yet the vast majority didn’t kneel at all durring the confirmation mass. I think part of the reason was becuase the chairs were too close to one another; if you were even a little bit larger or overweight, it would have been difficult to get down and kneel. I just couldn’t stand for the whole consecration, so I did kneel. Some other people decided to kneel too. Interestingly, many people in the first row knelt even though it was the one row without any kneelers. One woman knelt on the marble floor holding a child.
 
boppaid said:
At our church, there are no kneelers. This is a church I have been going to for years, and just love! My brother finds this troubling, and for that reason, won’t go to mass there unless it is an event for my children (i.e., communion, baptism, etc.)

What is the Church’s stance on no kneelers? Is this considered an abuse? No preferred? Our pastor is a canon lawyer who served as a canon judge. I always felt confident that he knows what he’s doing. (And still do…I love the man!) But I’m troubled by my brother’s reaction.
Click to expand...
vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

64…
Some responses reported other occurrences, opposed to afore-mentioned Church tradition, which obscure the sense of the sacred and the transcendent character of the sacred mysteries. For example, many new Churches—not to mention older ones after renovation—are built on the fundamental architectural plan of bringing the faithful into close proximity to the altar to ensure visual contact and communication between the celebrant and the assembly. Likewise, the tendency to turn the altar around to face the people—in practice eliminating the presbytery—is based on the same idea. In doing so, what might be gained in communication might not sufficiently safeguard a sense of the sacred, which is also an essential part of liturgical celebrations.

Some responses are very encouraging, however. Based on the guidelines set down in The General Instruction on the Roman Missal, diverse initiatives have been undertaken to ensure that sacred spaces in already existent Churches and those under construction be true places of prayer and adoration, where art and iconography become instruments to serve liturgical needs. For example, in some Churches, kneelers have returned along with the practice of the faithful kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer. Tabernacles, previously not clearly visible, have again been placed in the sanctuary or in a prominent place. The planning of new Churches is providing greater prominence to art, decoration, vestments and sacred vessels. This seeks to bring into harmony the nearness of the celebrant to the people and the sacred nature of the divine mysteries which are, at one and the same time, immanent and transcendent.
 
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