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Phemie
Guest
When the question was asked of Rome the reply was that when returning from Communion everyone was free to kneel, stand or sit, as they wished. It seems that some didn’t get the memo.
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Patavium
Guest
KenChute,
Where is this Church?
I also go to a Catholic Church in MPLS-StPaul, and they kneel.
Where is this Church?
I also go to a Catholic Church in MPLS-StPaul, and they kneel.
J
Journey322
Guest
Our parish is dual language (English/Spanish) but this doesn’t seem to affect much except how language is used. We still kneel when we’re supposed to kneel, and so on. I don’t know much about Quebec. Maybe it’s a regional thing?
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KenChute
Guest
Our leaders decided not to kneel, the Bishop and Priests, I believe its wise to obey the judgment
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TheMc
Guest
But even leaders can be wrong.
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GoldenLight
Guest
Personally I do not think it wise to blindly follow/ obey their judgement…
It seems imho that by making the congregation stand and therefor not kneel and reflect on the communion they have just taken that…Less and less importance is being given to the Eucharist. There is no way that you can focus on prayer when you are standing watching for the last man/women to the altar!!
It seems imho that by making the congregation stand and therefor not kneel and reflect on the communion they have just taken that…Less and less importance is being given to the Eucharist. There is no way that you can focus on prayer when you are standing watching for the last man/women to the altar!!
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Usagi
Guest
Sincere obedience will rarely lead you wrong, as long as it’s not obedience to a directive you know to be sinful.
On the other hand, it’s not the business of each individual priest to modify the liturgy. The Missal does sometimes provide several options, but in the case of posture during the consecration, “kneel unless physically unable” is the standard.
I don’t think that even an individual bishop can change that. I know the bishops of the United States, as a whole, requested and were granted permission to extend the kneeling period – from the end of the Sanctus all the way through the Great Amen – but notice the “requested” and “granted” elements there. It’s not something even the whole group of them could just decide to implement on their own.
That said, I too come from a parish where standing is the custom. We use chairs instead of pews, and though there are attachment points for kneelers, they have never been installed because the rows would have to be too far apart to fit in the usual number of attendees at Mass. I am not going to berate my fellow parishioners for standing when that’s what they’ve been told to do for years, but the fact remains that it is a matter of public record that kneeling is the correct posture for certain parts of the Mass. It has nothing to do with opinion or being progressive. I sometimes still kneel during the appropriate period, as do a few others.
Usagi
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Usagi
Guest
One thing that may cause confusion: two different issues have been raised in this thread.
Kneeling during the consecration (and for a longer portion of the Eucharistic Prayer in the U.S.) is the standard posture unless one is physically unable to do so.
Ditto for kneeling during “Behold the Lamb of God…”
The posture to take after communion seems to be a matter with a bit more wiggle room. In the U.S. parishes I attended before the current, kneeler-less one, kneeling was the custom. In my current parish, as at every other time, it is standing. Someone earlier in the thread quoted the GIRM for Canada (pertinent to the OP’s specific situation) as requiring standing after communion. That may indeed be a situation where it is up to each country, or even each bishop, to choose a posture.
Usagi
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KenChute
Guest
Part of the explanation for not standing was being “progressive”, with two Catholic churches in the area they are basically competing for parishioners and thus financial backing.
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Phemie
Guest
In this case progressive = disobedient. It reminds me of the pastoral council chair who once commented that we had to give the people what they wanted (i.e. bad music and bad liturgical practices) to get butts in the pews and money in the collection plate. Personally, I’d rather do what the Church wants and if those people don’t like it they can go to another parish. When we start doing the wrong thing just for money, then we are lost as a parish.
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surritter
Guest
Ken, this is not misinformation. It’s in black and white; it’s called the General Instruction of the Romal Missal (GIRM). Please stop trying to argue that it’s permitted, simply because you’ve seen parishes where they don’t kneel after the Holy Holy. It doesn’t matter if the law of the Church is being ignored at your parish. We are discussing what is supposed to be done:
The law on the posture of the people is as follows:- Universal Law. The General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43 establishes as the universal norm of the Roman Rite the practice of kneeling for the Consecration. This is understood to mean from the Epiclesis (the prayer calling for the sending down of the Holy Spirit) to the Mysterium Fidei (The Mystery of Faith).
- American Particular Law. The U.S. Bishops adapted the universal norm with Roman approval, retaining the practice of kneeling from after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) to the Doxology (Through Him, with Him, in Him), in other words for the entire Eucharistic Prayer. Thus, while in Italy and many other places they stand until the Consecration, at which time they kneel down for the Consecration, in the US we have knelt for the Canon in the past and continue to do so.
43 … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.
Local norms. Since the law governing adapting the norms to a particular church (diocese) or nation are spelled out in the General Instruction, and require obtaining Roman approval before implementation, the existence of an adaptation departing from the norm for the US, such as standing for the Consecration, is easily verified: a Roman document granting approval.
(source: ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_at_the_consecration.htm)
Perhaps you were thinking of the time after the “Lamb of God,” where there are some variants about standing vs. kneeling. But if we are discussing the time of consecration, as stated by the OP, then kneeling is the only option (with the normal exceptions as given in paragraph 43 of the GIRM).
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KenChute
Guest
You understand though that the Priest and Bishop have instituted the no kneeling policy, so of course there rules are followed.
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Phemie
Guest
The bishop and the priest are not free to change the posture at Consecration. That posture was determined by the Conference of Bishops and is binding on every parish in every diocese with the exception made for ability to kneel (illness, lack of space, etc. – making money is not a good reason to disobey the rubrics established by the Church) In the US that means that everyone who can kneels from the Epiclesis to after the AMEN. In Canada it means that, at minimum, everyone who can kneels from the Epiclesis to the Mystery of Faith; in parishes where it has been tradition to kneel from the Epiclesis to the AMEN, that can be retained. Nowhere is there an option to refuse to kneel where it’s possible to do so.
In the US, the Bishop of the diocese is free to decide that his flock will not kneel between the Agnus Dei and Communion, that decision is specifically left up to him by the GIRM. If he makes no decree for his diocese the posture at that time is kneeling, the default in the GIRM for the US. If he decrees no kneeling at that time, that is binding on every parish in his diocese, so individual pastors don’t get to pick and choose. In Canada the posture at this time is standing, with the understanding that if parishes have traditionally knelt at this point they are free to retain the practice.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
If they are competing with each other then some consolidation should be in order. Parishes should not be competing with each other. They are not meant to be centres of political power jockeying for attention, they are meant to be centres of worship. The day our parishes start fighting with each other for the lion’s share of the worshippers is the day we have lost them to Satan. Perhaps you could write to your bishop?
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KenChute
Guest
I don’t disagree with what your are saying. I am just a person going to church following guidance of the Church leaders, ie Bishop and Priest.
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surritter
Guest
That’s fine … the average layperson isn’t expected to know every letter of the law. The priest should educate the people about the proper posture during the consecration, and if he explicitly tells everyone to stand, then he is in violation of the law. The people should still kneel, since that priest has no power to tell them to stand, but I don’t criticize someone’s wish to simply “fit in” with the crowd.
But now everyone reading this thread knows what the proper rule states. I’m sure Abp. Nienstedt doesn’t tell people to stand for the consecration, and that he would gently correct a priest in his diocese who advocates standing.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
I’m not blaming you. I was just musing upon the idea of two parishes competing against each other and got a bit over my head.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, I noticed that at Midnight Mass - they actually started a new hymn, instead of stopping singing. (At St. Peter’s, Father actually cuts the choir off in the middle of the hymn when everyone is finished receiving; he just interrupts and says, “We will now have Great Silence.”)
He probably is. I noticed that one year at Remembrance Day, too - someone was playing music throughout the two minute “silence” - it could be that it just doesn’t occur to some people that music is not “silence.”
Yes.
Try just mentioning it to him after Mass, first, before you write a note - I’ve known him a long time, and I think he’d be open to hearing what you have to say - he has no ego that I know of, and I feel sure it’s just that he misunderstands what is meant by “Great Silence.” I’ve often mentioned things to him, and when I’m right, he does actually change.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
It works for us Eastern Catholics, don’t know why it won’t work for you guys.
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jmcrae
Guest
The idea is that we stand until the last person receives as a sign that “we” are receiving Holy Communion (as opposed to “I”) - and then during the Great Silence after everyone has received, we kneel and make our personal intentions in prayer.
I know that I would prefer not to stand, either, but this is the judgement of our Canadian Bishops, and St. Ignatius has said, “Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church,” so I go with the Bishops, even when I disagree with them personally. I like that we kneel for the Consecration, and there are lots of people who don’t, so I think it evens out.
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