No kneeling during the consecration?

[Phemie]

My grandparents came from Shediac NB.

I’m 100% French Acadian.

Jim

I’m originally from Charlo, NB, the ‘Nort’shore’. I’ve deduced I’m 50% Acadian, 25% Quebecois & 25% Scot. Francophone household, bilingual before the age of 6 if only to understand what my parents were saying to each other in English when they didn’t want me to understand. Knew what c-a-n-d-y meant by the time I was 4.

 

[Phemie]

centurionguard;

I don’t believe this is true, especially in the East, where kneeling is a form of sitting, and standing is the proper posture for prayer.
Church’s don’t even have pews, never mind kneelers. This is what I have heard various people say, but I’m not an expert on the subject to know for sure.

As far as Canada, the US and Western Europe goes, kneeling is the proper posture for worship, so we should kneel during the consecration.

Jim

And In Canada, unless instructed to by the bishop/archbishop, kneeling is only called for during the Consecration. The rest of Eucharistic Prayer and through Communion the GIRM says to stand. Coming back from Communion we can sit, stand or kneel as we wish.

 

[Frosty]

And In Canada, unless instructed to by the bishop/archbishop, kneeling is only called for during the Consecration. The rest of Eucharistic Prayer and through Communion the GIRM says to stand. Coming back from Communion we can sit, stand or kneel as we wish.

Do you have a link to this?
In my diocese, we have always knelt from after the Sanctus until the Lord’s Prayer. Then again from after the Agnus Dei through Communion. However, since the beginning of Advent, we have been instructed to remain standing throughout the Communion rite. Nothing has changed regarding kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[Phemie]

Do you have a link to this?
In my diocese, we have always knelt from after the Sanctus until the Lord’s Prayer. Then again from after the Agnus Dei through Communion. However, since the beginning of Advent, we have been instructed to remain standing throughout the Communion rite. Nothing has changed regarding kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer.

There is no ‘link’. I’m going by the 1975 GIRM, which I have in my hand and which is what we are still using in Canada, ORDO references to the new GIRM notwithstanding. Remember, our bishops have not promulgated the “new” GIRM, having taken the position that they don’t have to until the new MIssal is promulgated.

Article 21 in the 1975 GIRM says

For the sake of uniformity in movement and posture, the people should follow the directions given during the celebration by the deacon, the priest, or another minister. Unless other provision is made, at every Mass the people should stand from the beginning of the entrance song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel; while the gospel is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph. They should sit during the readings before the gospel and during the responsorial psalm, for the homily and the presentation of the gifts, and, if this seems helpful, during the period of silence after communion. They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason.

But it is up to the conference of bishops to adapt the actions and postures described in the Order of the roman Mass to the customs of the people. But the conference must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration.

In Canada the CCCB left it up to individual bishops to decide for their diocese and some bishops left it up to the pastors. That’s why we see such a diversity of posture depending on where we go to Mass.

AFAIK, the 2002 GIRM doesn’t change the above in any way. The US has adapted their postures to kneeling throughout the EP.

 

[Frosty]

There is no ‘link’. I’m going by the 1975 GIRM, which I have in my hand and which is what we are still using in Canada, ORDO references to the new GIRM notwithstanding. Remember, our bishops have not promulgated the “new” GIRM, having taken the position that they don’t have to until the new MIssal is promulgated.

Article 21 in the 1975 GIRM says

In Canada the CCCB left it up to individual bishops to decide for their diocese and some bishops left it up to the pastors. That’s why we see such a diversity of posture depending on where we go to Mass.

AFAIK, the 2002 GIRM doesn’t change the above in any way. The US has adapted their postures to kneeling throughout the EP.

Thanks. I hadn’t realized that there was such a diversity in posture throughout the country. Perhaps I’ve been lucky since the posture has been the same as what we practice in my diocese at every other church I have attended Mass at in Canada. I just assumed that it was the same everywhere. I guess the lesson is that one ought never to assume?

 

[benedictgal]

Do you have a link to this?
In my diocese, we have always knelt from after the Sanctus until the Lord’s Prayer. Then again from after the Agnus Dei through Communion. However, since the beginning of Advent, we have been instructed to remain standing throughout the Communion rite. Nothing has changed regarding kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer.

Inasmuch as he is no longer the prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Francis Cardinal Arinze noted something rather interesting regarding the posture during the Communion rite:

Does everybody have to stand until the last person has received Holy Communion?

There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could – but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom.

There was (and, probably still is) some controversy as to what the laity are supposed to do here in the United States after receiving Holy Communion. While I understand that Canada might have a different outlook, this is the official response that the USCCB received when it brougt this matter up to the CDWDS (back when Cardinal Arinze was in charge):

Numerous inquiries" received by the BCL led Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

I hope this helps.

 

[Phemie]

Inasmuch as he is no longer the prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Francis Cardinal Arinze noted something rather interesting regarding the posture during the Communion rite:

There was (and, probably still is) some controversy as to what the laity are supposed to do here in the United States after receiving Holy Communion. While I understand that Canada might have a different outlook, this is the official response that the USCCB received when it brougt this matter up to the CDWDS (back when Cardinal Arinze was in charge):

I hope this helps.

But that only refers to the posture once one returns to one’s pew after Communion, not the posture from after the Consecration to Communion. The Latin GIRM only calls for kneeling during the Consecration. The US has adapted the GIRM to say kneeling thoughout the EP and before Communion.

Until the CCCB promulgates the new GIRM in which, as indicated by Archbishop Prendergast, they’ve decided to call for kneeling throughout the entire Eucharistic Prayer, the only kneeling required in Canada is during the words of consecration. Bishops had argued for either standing throughout or kneeling throughout in recognition that it’s ONE prayer and should have only ONE posture. It remains to be seen if the CCCB will leave it up to individual bishops to decide for their own dioceses.

 

[Witzy]

It is interesting how this has become a predominately Canadian discussion, as this is where this change is most prevalent. This has been a difficult issue for me since the last Pastor came to our parish and promoted standing throughout the EP. The irony was that he made the invitation/suggestion to stand on the feast of Christ the King. He articulated reasons to stand, none of which really resonated with me, but I kneel in reverence to Christ. Now we have a new more traditional priest from another country, and he clearly is more comfortable with kneeling. This has left the congregation in disarray, and our bishop is remiss to make any definitive pronouncement.
Pray for us.

 

[centurionguard]

It is interesting how this has become a predominately Canadian discussion, as this is where this change is most prevalent. This has been a difficult issue for me since the last Pastor came to our parish and promoted standing throughout the EP. The irony was that he made the invitation/suggestion to stand on the feast of Christ the King. He articulated reasons to stand, none of which really resonated with me, but I kneel in reverence to Christ. Now we have a new more traditional priest from another country, and he clearly is more comfortable with kneeling. This has left the congregation in disarray, and our bishop is remiss to make any definitive pronouncement.
Pray for us.

Personally I think there should be some common unity whether there is liturgical arguments that differ from the USCCB or CCCB or any other global CCB whether we live in the West or East. The GIRM in United States and Canada are for the most part identical. The confusion and disunity about kneeling runs amuck in both our countries. And why ? Who is really responsible ? Is it both the clergy and laity ? Cardinal Arinze did make some excellent observations with regard to kneeling. However; I will say that I am irked by an explanation made from a parish pulpit during a homily about the priest intention to have his parishioners stand during the Eucharistic Prayers leading to the Consecration. The Priest said; You wouldn’t kneel before the Queen of England, or the U.S. President, or Canadian Prime Minister. One irked parishioner stepped out into the Main Aisle of the Church and interjected saying; Yes Father that’s true what you say. However; If Jesus Christ made himself recognizably visible in front of you, You would humbly fall flat on your face. The irked parishioner walked out of the Church. ( And no I’m not that parishioner ).
Question is aside from the behavioral aspect ((did that parishioner have a valid point by stating what he did)) ?

 

[Witzy]

To CenturionGuard, etc,
First, I know that here in Canada liturgists have been given a lot more (name removed by moderator)ut into these matters, and some of these liturgists articulated such unusual ideas that I came to mistrust many of them. I also have difficulty being obedient to the CCCB when they tell parishes what music books to use, while they themselves went ahead and printed off new Lectionaries using the NRSV, without Papal approval, which they presumably knew they would not get. This seems a case of do as I say, but not as I do.

Similarly, out whole Church is coming to grips with the fact that in today’s world, we don’t like to be told what to do, and so priests and bishops, individually and collegially, are becoming increasingly remiss to tell us what to do. This is an ingredient of our current predicament.

A friend recently asked a visiting Cardinal for direction on this “kneeling at the consecration” issue. The cardinal’s response was that being loving was what was most important. My friend (very boldly) suggested that the cardinal’s comment itself was not loving, because he failed to give direction when it was needed. Hebrews 12 suggests that my friend has a point. However, if we profess obedience to the pope, but refuse to follow his priest in this matter (as I have done), are we not also then somewhat of a contradiction ourselves, and possibly also causing scandal, or at least disunity to the Body of Christ?

The situation that you described is one where the parishioner certainly had a valid point, but his/her way of making it was likely to cause scandal and disunity. Eph. 5 asks children to obey their parents, but qualifies that by asking parent to not provoke their children. In the case described, the priest could be equally or more responsible for the “scandal” by his provocation. The parisioner’s challenge ws best left to a lunch meeting at a future date, though that did not work for me. And, may I add, I believe that protocol for most royalty still allows for times when people genuflect toward them. Hey, regardless, we worship with our bodies, and that’s one of the reasons why kneeling still makes more sense than I can ignore.
Finally, if you do a mini “scripture study” of all the occasions when people come into God’s presence, you will notice that kneeling or prostrating themselves is very common.