"No Man Knows My History" Fawn Brodie

[Eliza10]

Well this topic was introduced on the just-closed thread. SInce it is off-topic of the closed thread, here is the comment by Tikitokiguy, then I’ll comment:

:
I read that book about a month or so ago. I was hoping there would be some good things in it about Joseph Smith. I was hoping at least some of those marriages were really done to follow Gods will. Nope. It really breaks my heart. Smith was no prophet, he was pure man like me or you. What’s more, he’s worse. Hopefully if given the chance to scare women into marrying me, I would never do that. Somehow I knew it all to be false but hoped it wasn’t, and went ahead and joined the LDS church. Now out of depression, I read the book and it was wonderfully written and with therapy, helping me break away from the LDS church. It does break my heart. It also makes me sad so many followers choose to follow him. No wonder so many ex-LDS become atheists. Maybe they are so sad about so many people being fooled, they think God does not exist, can’t exist, because if He did exist He would not let so many people be fooled. And how can I tell the one man in the ward that calls me, always encouraging me to come back to the ward? How can I tell him I’ve become an enemy of the church? How can I tell him to find peace with myself I must be myself, and to forgive my dad I feel I must join his church - the Catholic church.

In the Elders Quorum meeting one time the teacher said he thinks if the church wanted all the men to go to Salt Lake and protect the church, most of us would probably go. He said most, not all. I asked myself - would I go to Salt Lake and protect the church? Would I die for the church? Then, I’m not sure. But now, no. I would not die for the church. But would I fight for and die for the Catholic church? Let me put it this way - dying for the LDS church would be a bad death for me. Dying for the Catholic church would be an honorable and worthy way to die. I can’t stand with the LDS church anymore. I stand with the
Catholic church because those people are like me, they are everyday people. I’ll stand with the Unitarian Universalists because they seem to accept all people and as I heard - all people are special and have dignity.

 

[Pahoran]

Well this topic was introduced on the just-closed thread. SInce it is off-topic of the closed thread, here is the comment by Tikitokiguy, then I’ll comment:

Did TikiTokiguy really expect a famous anti-Mormon tome to have “some good things in it about Joseph Smith?” Did he really think that it would tell him that “at least some of those marriages were really done to follow Gods will?”

He says so, so I suppose he must have.

Well, I suppose some are still willing to accept this discredited hatchet job at face value. However, for an alternate – and more accurate – view:

Review of F M Brodie

“The fasting hermit and very saint of ignorance.”

Is that all it takes to make her the patron saint of all the LDS-related threads on Catholic Answers?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[soren1]

I read that book about a month or so ago. I was hoping there would be some good things in it about Joseph Smith. I was hoping at least some of those marriages were really done to follow Gods will. Nope. It really breaks my heart. Smith was no prophet, he was pure man like me or you. What’s more, he’s worse. Hopefully if given the chance to scare women into marrying me, I would never do that. Somehow I knew it all to be false but hoped it wasn’t, and went ahead and joined the LDS church. Now out of depression, I read the book and it was wonderfully written and with therapy, helping me break away from the LDS church. It does break my heart. It also makes me sad so many followers choose to follow him. No wonder so many ex-LDS become atheists. Maybe they are so sad about so many people being fooled, they think God does not exist, can’t exist, because if He did exist He would not let so many people be fooled. And how can I tell the one man in the ward that calls me, always encouraging me to come back to the ward? How can I tell him I’ve become an enemy of the church? How can I tell him to find peace with myself I must be myself, and to forgive my dad I feel I must join his church - the Catholic church.

I have never had the experience you are describing, but I have heard these sentiments from others. I have long been of the opinion that evangelizing Mormons has less to do with disproving Joseph Smith than it has to do with addressing the despair they think they will experience if they reject him - not realizing that submission to that fear is itself a kind of despair. I think there is something very healthy in reading something like No Man Knows My History (a book for which I do have criticisms, but still recommend) because coming to terms with the harder truths about how you have been mislead is strengthening to the conscience. But it can also prompt a great sadness, and I do share the experience of the sadness involved in contemplating just what the magnitude of the Mormon deception is.

The man from you ward who calls you does not have to hear about how you have become an enemy of the Mormon Church; in finding Catholicism, you have a cause for hope to tell him about, one that he needs to hear.

 

[Eliza10]

I read that book about a month or so ago. I was hoping there would be some good things in it about Joseph Smith. I was hoping at least some of those marriages were really done to follow Gods will. Nope. It really breaks my heart. .

Yes, good for you, you were hoping to find something true and right and beautiful. Unfortunately, other than that his engaging personality came through, there wasn’t much of that. Well, no, thats not true, there was some. At least as Brodie characterized him, it really seems he cared about his folowers, at least in many instances. Brodie seemed to feel Smith really regretted what happened to the people in Independance, i.e. She certainly did not make him out to be a monster. She softened and almost excused many of his lies and deciets.

Smith was no prophet, he was pure man like me or you. What’s more, he’s worse…

:sad_yes:

Hopefully if given the chance to scare women into marrying me, I would never do that. .

Yikes, I hope not. There were a few good men who left disgusted because of that. But then, way too many who joined in.

Somehow I knew it all to be false but hoped it wasn’t, and went ahead and joined the LDS church. Now out of depression, I read the book and it was wonderfully written and with therapy, helping me break away from the LDS church. It does break my heart…

Yes. I guess you can only offer God your broken heart and ask himwhat you should do with it.

It also makes me sad so many followers choose to follow him. .

Yes, I rather marvel at it.

No wonder so many ex-LDS become atheists. Maybe they are so sad about so many people being fooled, they think God does not exist, can’t exist, because if He did exist He would not let so many people be fooled.

I was recently surprised to discover and a popular ex-Mormon testamony site and see so many were now atheists. So sad. I had only known converts before. I guess celibrity physicist Dawkins said that so many people being Mormon, which is so obviously proveably false, is proof there is no God and all religion is false. (Guess he never took Logic 101, but I can see how some would conclude that).

And how can I tell the one man in the ward that calls me, always encouraging me to come back to the ward? How can I tell him I’ve become an enemy of the church? How can I tell him to find peace with myself I must be myself, and to forgive my dad I feel I must join his church - the Catholic church. .

Well - are you really an enemy? Is that what you consider yourself? How about “unbeliever”? Be kind to the ward man, respect his beliefs, as you can assume he sincerely believes what he believes. You have different beliefs. Also know he may NOT care to know what you know…

In the Elders Quorum meeting one time the teacher said he thinks if the church wanted all the men to go to Salt Lake and protect the church, most of us would probably go. He said most, not all. I asked myself - would I go to Salt Lake and protect the church? Would I die for the church? Then, I’m not sure. But now, no. I would not die for the church. But would I fight for and die for the Catholic church? Let me put it this way - dying for the LDS church would be a bad death for me. Dying for the Catholic church would be an honorable and worthy way to die…

Yes. I also feel I would die for the Church, and I have never felt that way about anything else. God willing that He give me the grace not to chicken out at the last moment if I do have that choice.

Maybe they do believe they would die for their church. You never had that conviction because maybe you had a heart for truth. And the truth never really spoke to your heart there. Because its not true. And not everybody has a heart for truth. So thank God for that grace you have!

I can’t stand with the LDS church anymore. I stand with the Catholic church because those people are like me, they are everyday people. I’ll stand with the Unitarian Universalists because they seem to accept all people and as I heard - all people are special and have dignity.

We-ll, I am not going to stand with you with and the Unitarian Universalists! Except as people that Jesus loves enough to die for. That includes the Mormons. I’ll stand with all of them on that basis.

 

[Eliza10]

Did TikiTokiguy really expect a famous anti-Mormon tome to have “some good things in it about Joseph Smith?” Did he really think that it would tell him that “at least some of those marriages were really done to follow Gods will?”

He says so, so I suppose he must have.

Yes, you’re right, he says he hopd to find that and* I* *totally beleive his sincerity. *I hope you really do, too, and aren’t just being sarcastic.

Well, I suppose some are still willing to accept this discredited hatchet job at face value. However, for an alternate – and more accurate – view:

Review of F M Brodie

Hugh Nibley? Oh.

You know, your sources are a little* biased*, don’t you think?

I like to look for something a little more solid. I find that reviewing reviews on Amazon helps me get a really decent overview of things. Particularly when you read them all, and use a little discernment. I read reviews for all the Joseph Smith books before I chose one, and t was a fascinating overview. Brodie’s book stood out above all the rest as being a that of a highly respected historian who stands the test of time (she updated her book after the orignal came out 50 years ago). Thats the only reason I spent time on the book.

In the processof reading all those reviews I also read the reviews for the cutely titled, No M’am Thats Not Histroy that you refer to here, but an objective look it the reviews reveals that it is quite clearly: Mormon propaganda, and highly biased. Sorry. Maybe the truth hurts.

So you say what you offer here is “a more accurate view”, but that flies in the face of what the vast majority of the unbiased reviewers say.

 

[Pahoran]

I have never had the experience you are describing, but I have heard these sentiments from others. I have long been of the opinion that evangelizing Mormons has less to do with disproving Joseph Smith than it has to do with addressing the despair they think they will experience if they reject him - not realizing that submission to that fear is itself a kind of despair.

I’m unaware of the fear you seem to imagine exists, so I can’t address that.

However, I’ve got a better idea. It’s a bold alternative, and one that, in my experience, has yet to be tried among those who are trying to “evangelize Mormons.” And it is this:

Instead of trying to find a way to point out the faults you imagine to be found in the Church of Jesus Christ, why not simply show the simple beauty, and hope, and joy, to be found in what you have?

Then you could give the prospective Catholic something to read and go away and let them compare your version of the Gospel with the one they already have, and decide for themselves which is more compelling.

Because if what you have is really better, shouldn’t that be apparent on a fair comparison, in which the dice are not first loaded by trying to undermine their faith?

I think there is something very healthy in reading something like No Man Knows My History (a book for which I do have criticisms, but still recommend) because coming to terms with the harder truths about how you have been mislead is strengthening to the conscience. But it can also prompt a great sadness, and I do share the experience of the sadness involved in contemplating just what the magnitude of the Mormon deception is.

I read No Man Knows as a teenager. Although it wasn’t nearly as spiteful, nor as egregiously erroneous, as Walter Martin’s stuff, which I also read at the same time, I was able to detect a number of its errors.

Having subsequently learned a lot more about a great many things, I now find that the book is simply swarming with errors.

It’s unlikely to make much of an impact on any well-informed Latter-day Saint; but it might have some impact upon the weak and unwary.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

Yes, you’re right, he says he hopd to find that and* I* *totally beleive his sincerity. *I hope you really do, too, and aren’t just being sarcastic.

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, and leave it at that.

Hugh Nibley? Oh.

Yes, Hugh Nibley.

Frequently smeared, never discredited.

You know, your sources are a little* biased*, don’t you think?

Do you seriously think there’s an unbiased source that has anything important to say on any subject? The only reason anyone bothers to write anything at all is because they have some opinions they wish to argue for.

I like to look for something a little more solid. I find that reviewing reviews on Amazon helps me get a really decent overview of things. Particularly when you read them all, and use a little discernment.

I agree.

For instance, some of the most devastating reviews of Brodie are the most enthusiastic. When Bernard DeVoto admiringly announced that Brodie was “a detached, modern intelligence, grounded in naturalism, rejecting the supernatural,” he also declared her incapable of even for a moment taking Joseph Smith seriously. And this qualifies her to write a large book about him – how, exactly?

I read reviews for all the Joseph Smith books before I chose one, and t was a fascinating overview. Brodie’s book stood out above all the rest as being a that of a highly respected historian who stands the test of time (she updated her book after the orignal came out 50 years ago). Thats the only reason I spent time on the book.

Funny you should mention that “test of time” bit. Brodie, as Nibley points out, was on absolutely safe ground when she chose to go after Joseph Smith; who but a Mormon would object? And as you have just demonstrated, what could be easier than to marginalise the members of a small, unpopular religion?

But then she went after Thomas Jefferson. That didn’t turn out nearly so well for her, and mark this: she used exactly the same techniques on Jefferson as she did on Joseph.

In the processof reading all those reviews I also read the reviews for the cutely titled, No M’am Thats Not Histroy that you refer to here, but an objective look it the reviews reveals that it is quite clearly: Mormon propaganda, and highly biased. Sorry. Maybe the truth hurts.

And Brodie’s book is anti-Mormon propaganda, and highly biased. Your point?

So you say what you offer here is “a more accurate view”, but that flies in the face of what the vast majority of the unbiased reviewers say.

Except that “the vast majority of the unbiased reviewers” are far from being experts in Mormon history. And when it comes to a contest between majority opinion and informed opinion, I’ll take the informed stuff hands down, thanks.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Eliza10]

And Brodie’s book is anti-Mormon propaganda,

…:hypno:

and highly biased.

So you say. I read it, and I am not of your opinion. Nor are the unbiased critics.

 

[Eliza10]

… I have long been of the opinion that evangelizing Mormons has less to do with disproving Joseph Smith than it has to do with addressing the despair they think they will experience if they reject him - not realizing that submission to that fear is itself a kind of despair. .

This is a very intersting insight, and rings true.

(a book for which I do have criticisms, but still recommend) because coming to terms with the harder truths about how you have been mislead is strengthening to the conscience. But it can also prompt a great sadness, and I do share the experience of the sadness involved in contemplating just what the magnitude of the Mormon deception is… I can relate, as I felt sadness over “lost years” because of certain errors I had lived by when I was an Evangelcial Protestant. There is sadness for what would have been, had you not wasted time believing something false. But, wow, what a magnitude the Mormon deception is and it is a whole immersion lifestyle. What sadness.

 

[Pahoran]

So you say. I read it, and I am not of your opinion. Nor are the unbiased critics.

Which “unbiased” critics are those? The ones who know nothing at all about LDS Church history?

When No Man Knows came out, the early reviews were positive, while the later reviews were not. The early reviews were by those who read her book and liked it; the later reviews were by those who actually checked up on her facts. Those who liked it, liked it for the story and how well it was told; those who did not, disliked her sloppy use of sources and strained argumentation.

When she went after Thomas Jefferson, the same pattern emerged. Those who liked well-written books reviewed it first and liked it; those who liked historical books to be factual took more time to do some research, and didn’t like it.

For all the same reasons as with No Man Knows.

Does that not give you any pause at all?

Or am I just not being nice again?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You would perhaps like to read another man’s experience with the LDS – “Inside Mormonism” by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers. Bennett was a Catholic priest who fell for the Mormon deception, became an active member of the LDS, eventually realized that it was a fraud, and returned to the Catholic Church. Bennett has some articles on line – just Google his name.

I have Brodie’s book, “No Man Knows My History,” which won a prestigious literary award for history. I found it to be thoroughly researched and documented. As I understand it, Fawn Brodie started out writing it as a practicing Mormon, but soon discovered through her research that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Smith was an amazing con man, who continues conning people from his grave.

Jim Dandy

`

 

[RebeccaJ]

Tikitokiguy, I came to the same conclusions as you, only, I’ve never read Brodie’s book.

 

[Eliza10]

You would perhaps like to read another man’s experience with the LDS – “Inside Mormonism” by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers. Bennett was a Catholic priest who fell for the Mormon deception, became an active member of the LDS, eventually realized that it was a fraud, and returned to the Catholic Church. Bennett has some articles on line – just Google his name.`

I have it. Its a useful practical book on what the Mormons actually teach. An entirely different kind of book than Brodie’s, I’m sure you’ll agree. The scope of Brady’;s book is rather astounding. Quite.a.history.

I have Brodie’s book, “No Man Knows My History,” which won a prestigious literary award for history.`

Excuse me, Pahoran? Did you see this? Were the awarders of this literary award biased?

I found it to be thoroughly researched and documented. `

… Yes. Quite.

As I understand it, Fawn Brodie started out writing it as a practicing Mormon, but soon discovered through her research that Joseph Smith was a fraud.`

Yes, I recall that now from the reviews.

When I read the Amazon reviews, ther were many, many things that told me that this book is quite unbiased, as far as history books go. (It is impossible for a historian to be 100% bias-free, but Brodie does a great job). What you state above is one of the many things that told me that. Reading the book confirmed that.

Smith was an amazing con man, who continues conning people from his grave.
Jim Dandy `

…Yes.

 

[Eliza10]

…Or am I just not being nice again?

Its not just that. Its that it seems to me you like to argue just to argue. I don’t want to get caught up in that.

 

[Eliza10]

What is this

Giant

Space

in this thread? So:yawn:me kind of giant YAWN?

I think I’m going to bed!

Im reading about St. Francis de Sales.

 

[Pahoran]

You would perhaps like to read another man’s experience with the LDS – “Inside Mormonism” by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers. Bennett was a Catholic priest who fell for the Mormon deception, became an active member of the LDS, eventually realized that it was a fraud, and returned to the Catholic Church. Bennett has some articles on line – just Google his name.

Actually I’ve had my own experience with the Church of Jesus Christ, thanks very much.

I have Brodie’s book, “No Man Knows My History,” which won a prestigious literary award for history. I found it to be thoroughly researched and documented. As I understand it, Fawn Brodie started out writing it as a practicing Mormon, but soon discovered through her research that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

This is a standard bit of Brodie hagiography, a kind of popular anti-Mormon urban legend; and it is false.

Brodie was a thoroughgoing atheist before she even started writing her book. She originally intended it as a way to find a naturalistic explanation for the Book of Mormon, and, according to her, it just kind of got sidetracked into writing a biography of Joseph Smith instead.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I have it. Its a useful practical book on what the Mormons actually teach. An entirely different kind of book than Brodie’s, I’m sure you’ll agree. The scope of Brady’;s book is rather astounding. Quite.a.history.

Astonishing, indeed. I have the second edition of Brodie’s book, revised and enlarged, which answers many of the criticisms of the original publication and provides addional facts and documentation. Hopefully, you and others read the second edition as well. It won high praise from literary critics and historians. My copy still has the dust jacket. From the front cover: "Saturday Review has called this biography of the Mormon prophet ‘a book distinguished in the range and originality of its research, the informed and searching objectivity of its viewpoint, the richness and suppleness of its prose, and its narrative power;’ "

Fawn Brodie was a Senior Lecturer in the Department of History at UCLA. Her highly acclaimed books were scrutinized by her peers.

Also from the dust jacket, “His [Joseph Smith’s] biographer, herself steeped in Mormon lore from her Utah childhood, has performed feats of painstaking and rewarding research. . .”

And, "Fawn Brodie, distinguished biographer and historian, was born in Ogden, Utah, and grew up in a high mountain valley. ‘Anyone who grows up with a Mormon background cannot escape him . . . I cannot remember the first time I heard of his visions and his golden plates, and the shocking tale of his murder in the Carthage jail.’ "

Excuse me, Pahoran? Did you see this? Were the awarders of this literary award biased?

It was the Alfred A. Knopf Award for history.

When I read the Amazon reviews, ther were many, many things that told me that this book is quite unbiased, as far as history books go. (It is impossible for a historian to be 100% bias-free, but Brodie does a great job). What you state
above is one of the many things that told me that. Reading the book confirmed that.

I think it’s the documentation that makes Brodie’s book so persuasive. Smith’s fraud conviction in New York, for example. And Smith’s digging for buried treasure with the aid of magic stones. And his many wives. The 19th century was an age of gullibility in U.S. But why ppl believe it now is beyond my comprehension.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

What is this

Giant

Space

in this thread? So:yawn:me kind of giant YAWN?

I think I’m going to bed!

Im reading about St. Francis de Sales.

Sorry – I must have done that. I’m trying to learn how to use my new laptop. 'Scuse please.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Actually I’ve had my own experience with the Church of Jesus Christ, thanks very much.

This is a standard bit of Brodie hagiography, a kind of popular anti-Mormon urban legend; and it is false.

Brodie was a thoroughgoing atheist before she even started writing her book. She originally intended it as a way to find a naturalistic explanation for the Book of Mormon, and, according to her, it just kind of got sidetracked into writing a biography of Joseph Smith instead.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Originally Posted by Pahoran

This is a standard bit of Brodie hagiography, a kind of popular anti-Mormon urban legend; and it is false.

Brodie was a thoroughgoing atheist before she even started writing her book. She originally intended it as a way to find a naturalistic explanation for the Book of Mormon, and, according to her, it just kind of got sidetracked into writing a biography of Joseph Smith instead.

Regards,
Pahoran

I had to shut down my new laptop and fire up my old computer to answer you. Sorry for the previous failed attempt.

May I see what Brodie wrote about her book, as quoted above, please? Did she say she was an atheist? What kind of “naturalistic explanation” was she expecting to find for the BOM when it was so obviously based on Spaulding’s manuscript flavored with excerpts from the KJV and a smidgen of French and Shakespeare? I’m eager to read that.

Even if true (evidence, please), there is nothing that would have prevented “ex-Mormon and atheist” Fawn Brodie from writing an objective, well-documented biography, which No Man Knows My History certainly is – not just in my own personal opinion, but in the judgment of many literary critics. Brodie was not an untrained, Bible-college educated bumpkin, but a professional writer and peer-reviewed, university-trained historian who taught at UCLA. Others do not share your jaundiced view of her. She wrote several highly regarded histories.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy