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Lampo
Guest
Oh, I know. I wasn’t directing it towards you. I was just posting it in general.I didn’t suggest the title, I am paraphrasing what I heard on the radio…(just to clarify)
"No matter what you do or don't do, you can never lose heaven, if you believe in Christ as your Savior...."
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sodak
Guest
That’s one of the problems with so many fundamentalists’ teachings. They use flowery language, but with no practical application. How do you know when you’ve done it? How do you know when you’re “convicted”? Those questions are never answered.what does that mean exactly–believe and be in??
One of the many things that I love about the Catholic church is it’s practical side. You want to be forgiven? Go to confession. Hear the Priest give you absolution - a more powerful and moving experience, IMO, then all the other false assurances combined!
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whatevergirl
Guest
oh okOh, I know. I wasn’t directing it towards you. I was just posting it in general.
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whatevergirl
Guest
Exactly. I wrestled with a few of the RCC’s principles in my life, namely confession–and when I finally was convinced that I should go…it really came upon me through prayer one day. I felt the Holy Spirit basically say to me…If Jesus gave this ability to His Apostles to forgive sin, then you should follow everything Jesus teaches–not pick and choose. That was a powerful moment for me, personally. And it’s true…Protestants or anyone else cannot discount that the Bible specifically states that Jesus gave the authority over to His Apostles to forgive sins…and basically, that meant to succeed in a priesthood. He didn’t give that ‘power’ to lay people–only to His ‘clergy.’ I have often heard non Catholics speak about ‘confessing sins directly to God,’ or ‘confessing to one another.’ Sorry, my husband or friend, or lay pastor does not have that authority. Sure, they can be good listeners…but Jesus gave that authority to His Apostles so they can absolve us. (through the persona of Christ, of course)That’s one of the problems with so many fundamentalists’ teachings. They use flowery language, but with no practical application. How do you know when you’ve done it? How do you know when you’re “convicted”? Those questions are never answered.
One of the many things that I love about the Catholic church is it’s practical side. You want to be forgiven? Go to confession. Hear the Priest give you absolution - a more powerful and moving experience, IMO, then all the other false assurances combined!
That is totally more meaningful than walking up to one of my neighbors and confessing my sins to them. What exactly is that going to do? Plus, if I confess my sins to God, which I do every day in prayer–how often do we confess the same sins over and over, never having that ‘feeling’ of absolution? Confession confirms the absolution, and washes us clean–THE WAY JESUS INTENDED.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
It seems to depend on the particular sin. Most protestants I know will admit that they still sin. The will also deny that there is a difference between venial sin and mortal sin. However, occaisionally they will claim after someone has committed a particular sin, that the individual never was saved nor were they a Christian in the first place. In my experience, if someone commits adultery, then many people will claim that the individual never really was saved. However, if you try to get them to list which sins tell us who is or is not saved they tend to refuse to provide such a list.
Of course, such an approach has some logical problems with it. Many protestants claim to know that they are saved, but the problem is: how do they know that they won’t commit one of the sins that proves that they are not saved?
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whatevergirl
Guest
Good question–please pass the advil now, will you? lol
:whacky: It just seems to be too vague for me–I think that the RCC presents things in a more clear way–but, sometimes, we like to see things in grey.
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Steadfast
Guest
It’s already been pointed out but it bears repeating that not all Protestants believe in this "once saved, always saved’ doctrine.
Having said that though, I think there are some grounds for a lively and expectant hope.
I wouldn’t even call it presumption to say that you know you’re going to heaven when you die.
The problem I have is with the mechanism for salvation that usually goes along with the OSAS idea. Usually little more is required than walking an aisle and repeating a prayer as though we could be saved by making a decision and signing a contract.
Having said that though, I think there are some grounds for a lively and expectant hope.
I wouldn’t even call it presumption to say that you know you’re going to heaven when you die.
The problem I have is with the mechanism for salvation that usually goes along with the OSAS idea. Usually little more is required than walking an aisle and repeating a prayer as though we could be saved by making a decision and signing a contract.
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lukewarm
Guest
The absurdity of OSAS hit me when I saw an A & E special and it had an interview with a guy who kidnapped, raped, and murdered an 8 year old girl. Well he got “reborn” in prison and claimed Heaven is his no matter what because of the sinner’s prayer. When asked “what about the family of the little girl” he smugly stated they’ll be in hell because of their unforgiveness of him. If I could’ve reached through the T.V. and strangled him I would’ve. I take comfort in knowing there are no shortcuts and everything you do in this life will be answered too no matter what this guy thinks…
You rape and murder an 8 year old girl you get dealt with, no amount of repentance will make up for it IMO.
You rape and murder an 8 year old girl you get dealt with, no amount of repentance will make up for it IMO.
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Steadfast
Guest
Luke,
I don’t think even most proponents would agree with that example.
Remember a few years ago when that lady in Texas was scheduled to be executed. Her last name was Tucker is all I remember.
Anyway, her attorney and a number of church people were saying that her execution should be stayed indefinitely because of her conversion.
As I recall a large number of OSAS supporters made statements to the effect that while they rejoiced over her conversion and “salvation” they believed that she still had a penalty to pay to the state.
Jerry Falwell comes to mind.
I don’t think even most proponents would agree with that example.
Remember a few years ago when that lady in Texas was scheduled to be executed. Her last name was Tucker is all I remember.
Anyway, her attorney and a number of church people were saying that her execution should be stayed indefinitely because of her conversion.
As I recall a large number of OSAS supporters made statements to the effect that while they rejoiced over her conversion and “salvation” they believed that she still had a penalty to pay to the state.
Jerry Falwell comes to mind.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Exactly my point, the demons know Jesus, but cannot be redeemed by his saving blood. So why dont protestants partake of the saving Blood of Jesus Christ, when they have an opportunity to do so here on earth, for as the demons they are already damned. Besides in creation when all was revealed to the angels, The angels were given the hope to exercise their free will, but refused, thus eternal damnation.
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whatevergirl
Guest
I agree that it’s a bit disconcerting to say ‘without a doubt’…I’m going to heaven. I mean, I’d like to ‘think’ I am, however, we will all be subject to God’s judgement, and I just pray that I’m going! My 11 yr old dd is funny–she said the other day–‘if I’m in purgatory someday, at least I know that I’m close to heaven.’ That’s optimism for ya!
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whatevergirl
Guest
Oh wow…that is horrible. Well–there are secular and after life consequences, even if we are repentant…however, if we truly repent, our punishments, we are to believe, will be less. God’s mercy thankfully isn’t limited, as ours is here on earth.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
To a degree, this is true.These are words I heard on Charles Stanley’s show this morning, as I was driving in to work. I really like his program typically, but sadly, I think he misses the ‘full’ mark as to advice to give to believers. (and non-believers) Every now and then–he will say something that as a Catholic, I just have to disagree with.
He said today (I’m paraphrasing) that ‘no matter what you do or don’t do, as long as you believe that Christ died for your sins, you will go to heaven.’ Huh? So, if a person murders someone, and is not repentant, but believes in Christ–he/she can ‘expect’ heaven? Why I ask that is he added that "sure you will not be in the right relationship with Christ, but you will not lose your salvation, if you believe in Christ.’
Now, unless I’m missing something–I just found that to be dangerous. So, basically, ‘once saved, always saved.’ I don’t believe that works or anything that ‘we do’ will earn us salvation–as it’s not earn-able. Jesus died on the cross for our sin debt, but isn’t something required of us, when we accept to follow Him? Am I missing something, or do Protestants not feel that there are sins that can cause us to lose salvation? Are Catholics the only ones who believe in mortal sin?
Speaking of which, he actually commented last week that ‘Jesus died for your past, present and future sins–nothing you do or don’t do can cause you to lose heaven.’ Vague statements like that seem dangerous to me–do they to you?
I’d like to start a friendly discussion on this, if possible.
To believe and have faith, is to obey. When you say no to God and disobey, you then threaten your standing in your belief in Christ and therefore you may be cut-off from the True Vine.
Belief means reliance, not defiance.
reliance and obedience=saved
defiance=disobey and possible fall from grace
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SD_Catholic
Guest
To Dr. Stanley I guess it means believe in Christ and you get a free ticket to heaven. He said it, then tried to explain how easy it was for us to get to heaven because of what Jesus did. Just “believe and be in”… It didn’t give me that warm fuzzy feeling about Mr. Stanley… A few more OSAS presentations and I had heard enough from Chuck, even though they often times have interesting Bible stories in different parts of the radio program, I chose to quit listening because I knew they were preaching false teachings.what does that mean exactly–believe and be in??
I’m sure he has helped lead some people towards God, but I’m affraid his preachings fall short of taking them all the way to him.
SD
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whatevergirl
Guest
the reality is, when people break away from the RCC, there is a plethera of half truths out there…Lutheran is probably the most similiar, to Catholicism, but again…there are some half truths sprinkled in there. And then there are a lot of lies about the RCC out there for people to grapple with–so when I listen to other preachers, I do shut the shows off that seem to attack Catholicism or make blanket generalities about salvation. Through the RCC, one can find the*** fullness ***of faith. Has it made mistakes as a human church, of course. But, the tenets are from Christ–and in it, subsists the fullness or completeness of faith. The Protestant faiths–might show facets of truth that we all can agree on, but only through the RCC can only find the true fullness of Truth.
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guanophore
Guest
I think the sense of salvation is what is misleading. Most believe that it is something that occurs at a single point in time when a person prays “the sinners prayer”. Whereas, Catholics do not consider that salvation has been attained until the last day. We consider that we are “working out” our salvation with fear and trembling as long as we are no this earth. So, given that different perspective, it would be more accurate to say that a person may not be able to attain salvation if one persists in sin. Scripture is very clear that faith in Christ will result in a change of behavior and repentance from a sinful lifestyle. If one persists in faith, one will bear good fruit, and show works that befit repentance.These are words I heard on Charles Stanley’s show this morning, as I was driving in to work. I really like his program typically, but sadly, I think he misses the ‘full’ mark as to advice to give to believers. (and non-believers) Every now and then–he will say something that as a Catholic, I just have to disagree with.
He said today (I’m paraphrasing) that ‘no matter what you do or don’t do, as long as you believe that Christ died for your sins, you will go to heaven.’ Huh? So, if a person murders someone, and is not repentant, but believes in Christ–he/she can ‘expect’ heaven? Why I ask that is he added that "sure you will not be in the right relationship with Christ, but you will not lose your salvation, if you believe in Christ.’
Now, unless I’m missing something–I just found that to be dangerous. So, basically, ‘once saved, always saved.’ I don’t believe that works or anything that ‘we do’ will earn us salvation–as it’s not earn-able. Jesus died on the cross for our sin debt, but isn’t something required of us, when we accept to follow Him? Am I missing something, or do Protestants not feel that there are sins that can cause us to lose salvation? Are Catholics the only ones who believe in mortal sin?
Speaking of which, he actually commented last week that ‘Jesus died for your past, present and future sins–nothing you do or don’t do can cause you to lose heaven.’ Vague statements like that seem dangerous to me–do they to you?
I’d like to start a friendly discussion on this, if possible.
I think that some believe the only mortal sin is to reject the HS, and if a person is saved, this cannot happen.The concept sounds well and good–but if we commit mortal sins, and refuse to change our ways–how could we think we are going to heaven? But, in some ways, that would appear that we are saying that ‘our actions’ lead us to heaven?
It is being in a state of grace that gets us to heaven. When we are in a state of grace, this will be evident in our deeds. When we are not in a state of grace, that is obvious sooner or later!
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whatevergirl
Guest
hello
In your last paragraph–I agree, but I also know that the thief who hung next to Christ was not in a state of grace–yet Christ assured him of everlasting life in ‘paradise.’ I think that if we truly claim to be followers of Christ–yes, our deeds ‘should’ reflect that, but only God’s mercy will be the deciding factor. I never understood the whole ‘saved’ thing, to be honest. I think that one is either walking with Christ or not. There have been times I have strayed from Christ’s teachings, and times when I have been living on the right path (like now and for most of my parenting life)…so the times I have slipped, I wasn’t really saved? What does saved even mean? Saved from what? Saved from hell? From sin? From our selves? When Christ died on the cross, we were all ‘saved’ from hell, when you think about it. I am assuming that it’s in the accepting of this that one can be deemed ‘saved.’ But again-saved from hell or something else?
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lukewarm
Guest
I don’t believe that, I think Christians tell themselves this to make themselves feel better. You rape and murder an 8 year old girl you never see Heaven, maybe you don’t see hell but an eternal reward is not something in store for you anymore. I think a lot of folks will be surprised when they die…Oh wow…that is horrible. Well–there are secular and after life consequences, even if we are repentant…however, if we truly repent, our punishments, we are to believe, will be less. God’s mercy thankfully isn’t limited, as ours is here on earth.
Another prison show featured some degenerate murdering who was reborn (at least until he gets out of prison and can rape and torture some poor person) and he tried to equate stealing an apple as being as bad as what he did. Like God is a moron not capable of any bit of common sense…
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whatevergirl
Guest
The analogy is kind of stupid, lol, I agree–but if the apple thief is not repentant…he would be worse off than someone who killed, and repented. Look at King David, for starters.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I also saw a serial killer on tv asking the reporter which sin was greater: stealing a candy bar or murder someone, the reporter answered murder someone. the murderer said no, all sins are the same. all because some preacher went to his prison and tought him this. that didnt sit very well with me.
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