No meat without offending family?

[Irishmom2]

We’ve become over-sensitive to human respect and worrying about offending other people and putting our religious beliefs and practices aside for the sake of keeping other people from becoming “offended”.

Thank you. I guess in my own way, that is what I meant. But you said it much better.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

We’ve become over-sensitive to human respect and worrying about offending other people and putting our religious beliefs and practices aside for the sake of keeping other people from becoming “offended”.

It depends on whether you are worried about “offending” someone, or simply being RUDE. If you cannot interact with others because of your religious practices, then you should simply stay isolated. I don’t think that Jesus would approve of that however. OK, is the point to become more holy, or just not to eat meat on Fridays?

In THIS specific situation, the OP is worried about seeming to be on a high horse with her Lenten sacrifice. I think it’s a genuine concern, and one that merits careful attention. To stick our religious practices in someone’s face for the sake of it seems rather like the Pharisees, does it not?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

We’ve become over-sensitive to human respect and worrying about offending other people and putting our religious beliefs and practices aside for the sake of keeping other people from becoming “offended”.

And yet, we are also called to perfect charity. As some one else mentioned, St Francis taught that his bothers were to eat what was placed before them and not make demands on their hosts as to what they would eat or what should be served.

The better solution would be for the OPs family to NOT arrive at dinner time, but stop somewhere on the way to eat and arrive after dinner.

 

[EasterJoy]

The better solution would be for the OPs family to NOT arrive at dinner time, but stop somewhere on the way to eat and arrive after dinner.

Her aunt might have her feelings hurt if she did this, too. I think it is reasonable, since the aunt is Catholic, to ask someone if she still “does” meatless Fridays, or just to ask her directly. If the OP avoids the aunt’s Friday evening meal because she jumped to the conclusion that she’d have to eat meat at Auntie’s house, and Auntie finds out after knocked herself out making Grandma’s spinach lasagna, it’s going to be a mess to clean up.

The resolution to just resolve in charity to eat what is put in front of them is totally reasonable, though. If the Aunt were to forget and only realize later what she had done, she would not be upset that her niece had chosen to remain mum about the issue. If is obvious that the meatless nature of Friday has been totally forgotten, it would even be permissible to eat meat that you could have scraped to the side of your plate, in order to conceal the hostess’s mistake.

The niece might have some feeling that offering to take the aunt and her family out might not be received as a kindness, while making any special requests will result in the already-overburdened hostess knocking herself out too much to please everyone. The niece might choose to remain quiet about the whole matter unless her hostess asks “what kind of things do you eat?” and invites her (name removed by moderator)ut about the food, and to just eat what is in front of her. She’d not be modelling behavior contrary to the faith if she did.

 

[Moore11]

At some point this just gets ridiculous. If it were are Jewish family and some members weren’t practicing and became master BBQ pork rib contest winners, would the observant Jew be obligated to put on a bib and chow down? Of course not!!!I for one am tired of apologizing for my faith.

Perhaps the whole abstaining thing should only be if it is convienient. Heck, I’ll bet the Mcdonalds at my house is a little ticked that half my household income is absent from their profits every Lent when I give it up. I dont want to offend Ray Crock so maybe I should go get a Big mac now…

 

[BlueEyedLady]

At some point this just gets ridiculous. If it were are Jewish family and some members weren’t practicing and became master BBQ pork rib contest winners, would the observant Jew be obligated to put on a bib and chow down? Of course not!!!I for one am tired of apologizing for my faith.

Perhaps the whole abstaining thing should only be if it is convienient. Heck, I’ll bet the Mcdonalds at my house is a little ticked that half my household income is absent from their profits every Lent when I give it up. I dont want to offend Ray Crock so maybe I should go get a Big mac now…

With that attitude it is probably best if you don’t eat at other’s homes at all. It is simply not ok to accept a dinner invitation at let someone spend all that money and put in all that effort when you know ahead of time that you don’t intend to eat what they serve. Religious beliefs are not an excuse to treat someone who is trying to show you a kindness that way.

 

[EasterJoy]

At some point this just gets ridiculous. If it were are Jewish family and some members weren’t practicing and became master BBQ pork rib contest winners, would the observant Jew be obligated to put on a bib and chow down? Of course not!!!I for one am tired of apologizing for my faith.

Perhaps the whole abstaining thing should only be if it is convienient. Heck, I’ll bet the Mcdonalds at my house is a little ticked that half my household income is absent from their profits every Lent when I give it up. I dont want to offend Ray Crock so maybe I should go get a Big mac now…

Do not be so sure that if a secular Jewish aunt had knocked herself out to make a meal for her visiting observant niece (“newly” observing, from aunt’s point of view), she would automatically take “no” for an answer when it came time to eat what she made because she used hotel butter and hadn’t gotten her steaks from a kosher deli. Maybe…but then again, maybe not. Maybe Auntie would get her nose bent out of shape because her niece was being a pain in the hind end in order to show everyone she had become Miss More-Jewish-Than-You.

Do you remember the line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, when Aunt Voula was told that the groom, Ian, didn’t eat meat?
What do you mean he don’t eat no meat? Oh, that’s okay. I make lamb.
And we all know that every traditional Greek cook knows how to make a meat-free meal, too!

The Church, which gives the discipline of abstinence, does not look at it the way you describe, but allows Catholics to dispense themselves from the obligation to abstain on Fridays in Lent* if it seems necessary in order to avoid giving offense*. Not because it is convenient to us, because maybe we’d rather abstain, but because it is accomodating to someone else. If we, the faithful, add a burden over and above that in preference of abstinence over being gracious, the strife or hurt feelings will be on our heads, not the Church’s.

Still, I think it premature to presume that the aunt won’t make accomodation. It depends very much on the family. It is so common these days for hostesses to make inquires about dietary restrictions that in the end this may be a total non-issue.

 

[Moore11]

With that attitude it is probably best if you don’t eat at other’s homes at all. It is simply not ok to accept a dinner invitation at let someone spend all that money and put in all that effort when you know ahead of time that you don’t intend to eat what they serve. Religious beliefs are not an excuse to treat someone who is trying to show you a kindness that way.

Ok I guess I will never go to anyone’s house for dinner.

 

[Moore11]

Do not be so sure that if a secular Jewish aunt had knocked herself out to make a meal for her visiting observant niece (“newly” observing, from aunt’s point of view), she would automatically take “no” for an answer when it came time to eat what she made because she used hotel butter and hadn’t gotten her steaks from a kosher deli. Maybe…but then again, maybe not. Maybe Auntie would get her nose bent out of shape because her niece was being a pain in the hind end in order to show everyone she had become Miss More-Jewish-Than-You.

Do you remember the line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, when Aunt Voula was told that the groom, Ian, didn’t eat meat?
What do you mean he don’t eat no meat? Oh, that’s okay. I make lamb.
And we all know that every traditional Greek cook knows how to make a meat-free meal, too!

The Church, which gives the discipline of abstinence, does not look at it the way you describe, but allows Catholics to dispense themselves from the obligation to abstain on Fridays in Lent* if it seems necessary in order to avoid giving offense*. Not because it is convenient to us, because maybe we’d rather abstain, but because it is accomodating to someone else. If we, the faithful, add a burden over and above that in preference of abstinence over being gracious, the strife or hurt feelings will be on our heads, not the Church’s.

Still, I think it premature to presume that the aunt won’t make accomodation. It depends very much on the family. It is so common these days for hostesses to make inquires about dietary restrictions that in the end this may be a total non-issue.

I don’t think MBFGW is a great thing to base your stereotypes and theological decisions on. An OBSERVANT Jew would NEVER eat pork. Nor would a polite host offer it. It is quite off the track here. I don’t think we are dealing with some irrational aunt from the old country who will never speak to you again if you do not break your Lenten obligation. Lets not trivialize what “give offense” means. At some point in a polite society the onus is on BOTH parties not to offend. A good host, Catholic or Cafeteria Catholic should understand ones wish to follow their faith. Lets save “give offense” to some kind of situation in which you are in Africa and a starving village offers you a huge portion of wildebeest on a Friday of Lent and if you decline it you will offend them. Lets not use it as an excuse to not “live the Gospel”

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t think MBFGW is a great thing to base your stereotypes and theological decisions on. An OBSERVANT Jew would NEVER eat pork. Nor would a polite host offer it. It is quite off the track here. I don’t think we are dealing with some irrational aunt from the old country who will never speak to you again if you do not break your Lenten obligation. Lets not trivialize what “give offense” means. At some point in a polite society the onus is on BOTH parties not to offend. A good host, Catholic or Cafeteria Catholic should understand ones wish to follow their faith. Lets save “give offense” to some kind of situation in which you are in Africa and a starving village offers you a huge portion of wildebeest on a Friday of Lent and if you decline it you will offend them. Lets not use it as an excuse to not “live the Gospel”

No. Please stop this. Your hyperbole is silly. The OP is about a FUNERAL, where she is staying with relatives who are not as observant as she is, but that she does not wish to trouble further considering that everyone is grieving the loss of their sister, mother, grandmother, etc. That is a valid concern, have you ever actually lost anyone and been in a daze with grief? It’s nice if everyone treats one another with charity and does not add further stress by refusing the food one is offered.

Another poster gave the very helpful and sensible advice, which is to eat dinner before she turns up at her aunt’s house. Problem solved! “Oh, Auntie, it all looks so delicious, but I’m afraid I just haven’t got any room left at all. Perhaps I can have some leftovers tomorrow? That is, assuming anything is left over - your cooking is so yummy I’ll bet you never even HAVE any leftovers!”

Please, people, do not take this thread so far off topic that we start talking about wildebeests in Africa for goodness’ sake!

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t think MBFGW is a great thing to base your stereotypes and theological decisions on. An OBSERVANT Jew would NEVER eat pork. Nor would a polite host offer it. It is quite off the track here. I don’t think we are dealing with some irrational aunt from the old country who will never speak to you again if you do not break your Lenten obligation. Lets not trivialize what “give offense” means. At some point in a polite society the onus is on BOTH parties not to offend. A good host, Catholic or Cafeteria Catholic should understand ones wish to follow their faith. Lets save “give offense” to some kind of situation in which you are in Africa and a starving village offers you a huge portion of wildebeest on a Friday of Lent and if you decline it you will offend them. Lets not use it as an excuse to not “live the Gospel”

Um, I defy you to tell me where “the Gospel” puts what we eat over how we treat people.

*So the Pharisees and scribes questioned him, “Why do your disciples not follow the tradition of the elders but instead eat a meal with unclean hands?” He responded, “Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’ You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition.” He went on to say, "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition! …He summoned the crowd again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand. Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile.” *Mark 7: 7-9,14-15

Read 1 Corinthians, too. Find me where it is advised to put dietary restrictions ahead of how our choices affect someone else.

 

[Moore11]

Um, I defy you to tell me where “the Gospel” puts what we eat over how we treat people.

*So the Pharisees and scribes questioned him, “Why do your disciples not follow the tradition of the elders but instead eat a meal with unclean hands?” He responded, “Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’ You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition.” He went on to say, "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition! …He summoned the crowd again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand. Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile.” *Mark 7: 7-9,14-15

Read 1 Corinthians, too. Find me where it is advised to put dietary restrictions ahead of how our choices affect someone else.

I give up:shrug:

 

[hsmomforlife]

Also, do not forget that your children under the age of 14 are not required to abstain from meat. They are required to take care of their auntie’s feelings.

All of us are required to take care of other’s feelings…not just those under 14.
Abstaining from meat is not required, it’s suggested. Simply abstain from something else for the day, and for Heaven’s sake, don’t be rude to someone who is grieving and is hosting you and cooking for you! There was a wonderful story by a Brother on CAF about St Francis or St Benedict (sorry can’t remember which, I love them both!) where a poor hostess prepared the best meal she could (probably beyond what she could afford) and one priest turned to the other and queried how they were going to decline eating the meat without seeming rude, and the Saint said something to the effect of good manners trumps regulations! Eat the meal that was prepared for you out of the goodness of someone elses intentions…and unless you have a food allergy…be grateful!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

All of us are required to take care of other’s feelings…not just those under 14.
Abstaining from meat is not required, it’s suggested. Simply abstain from something else for the day, and for Heaven’s sake, don’t be rude to someone who is grieving and is hosting you and cooking for you! There was a wonderful story by a Brother on CAF about St Francis or St Benedict (sorry can’t remember which, I love them both!) where a poor hostess prepared the best meal she could (probably beyond what she could afford) and one priest turned to the other and queried how they were going to decline eating the meat without seeming rude, and the Saint said something to the effect of good manners trumps regulations! Eat the meal that was prepared for you out of the goodness of someone elses intentions…and unless you have a food allergy…be grateful!

It was St. Francis, I read that thread with great appreciation and affection. Hospitality was very important to St. Francis.

 

[EasterJoy]

I give up:shrug:

I only meant that one does not have to go to “the dark of Africa” to find a situation where the offense that one might expect as a result is anything but trivial. I think we all know families where this kind of issue, when it occurs concurrently with the high emotions surrounding a funeral, can be anything but trivial. If the aunt is going to get very upset and carry a grudge, it does not matter that she “shouldn’t”. If her niece knows that this is the kind of situation that sets off serious enmity in her family, then that is a sufficient reason.

All of us are required to take care of other’s feelings…not just those under 14.

Abstaining from meat is not required, it’s suggested.

This is true for Fridays outside of Lent, but the Lenten regulations require those over 14 to abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday and all Fridays during Lent unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. (I guess this is why solemnities falling on Fridays of Lent are transferred to another date.)

If the OP, knowing the situation, felt that the offense that would be caused if she were to make an issue of this at such a sensitive time in her family would be great, or would cause lasting enmity, then that is a compelling reason. That is something she’d have to honestly sort out with the knowledge she has of the parties involved. Otherwise, it is an obligation.

 

[Merry]

I just got home from my grandmother’s funeral. I am glad that I decided not to say anything to my aunt. I said a little prayer, and decided that I would do my best to avoid meat as long as I could do it without offending or upsetting anyone. My tentative plan was to eat as little as possible, and just be “not hungary” and by mostly skipping dinner, add a little extra to my Friday penance, if I did have to eat meat.

My aunt hosted probably close to 50 family members for supper on Friday between the afternoon and evening visitation hours at the funeral home, so it was easy to eat around the meat that was on the table. I honestly don’t think most people even knew what day of the week it was, everyone was so shocked and upset. My aunt had a huge variety of food, and it was easy for me to avoid meat. I can’t believe she managed to put on such a spread on short short notice under these very difficult circumstances. She actually made a crock of baked beans, which isn’t something she normally makes, so she may have had some passing thought about Lent.

Thanks for all of your insight and help.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I am so glad that the meal was not a huge issue. Condolences to your family and I will pray for the repose of your relative’s soul.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Your aunt sounds like a loving and hospitable person. You guys are lucky to have her.

My condolences on your loss.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I just got home from my grandmother’s funeral. I am glad that I decided not to say anything to my aunt. I said a little prayer, and decided that I would do my best to avoid meat as long as I could do it without offending or upsetting anyone. My tentative plan was to eat as little as possible, and just be “not hungary” and by mostly skipping dinner, add a little extra to my Friday penance, if I did have to eat meat.

My aunt hosted probably close to 50 family members for supper on Friday between the afternoon and evening visitation hours at the funeral home, so it was easy to eat around the meat that was on the table. I honestly don’t think most people even knew what day of the week it was, everyone was so shocked and upset. My aunt had a huge variety of food, and it was easy for me to avoid meat. I** can’t believe she managed to put on such a spread on short short notice under these very difficult circumstances. She actually made a crock of baked beans, which isn’t something she normally makes, so she may have had some passing thought about Lent.
**
Thanks for all of your insight and help.

I am so glad you decided not to trouble your aunt any further! It sounds as though she had her hands full with all those guests and as most of us suspected, giving her more work would have been an imposition during such a difficult time.

May God give all of you comfort in the days and months ahead.

:console:

 

[odile53]

I’d just insist with Auntie that she let me spring for fish fry out for everyone on Friday night, and couch it in the terms that she is working so hard to make sure everyone is well fed, entertained, and comfortable, that I absolutely insist that she let me take over hostess duties for Friday evening, and I absolutely won’t take “no” for an answer. Then I’d hunt for a local parish fish fry, or a restaurant with fish fry on the menu, and take it from there. I’d see no need to proselytize about “no meat on Friday in Lent,” and instead treat it as the duty of a good house guest to give back to my hostess in an expression of thankfulness for her hospitality.

Nobody gets confronted about their faith practices or lack thereof, ugly scenes get avoided, and everyone gets to enjoy a nice fish dinner on my dime.

If this proposal goes over like a lead balloon with Auntie, I’d just focus on the salad, ask for seconds and thirds on the delicious salad, or vegetables, or what have you, claim that I’m absolutely stuffed and couldn’t possibly eat another bite, offer it up as a Lenten sacrifice (I’m not a diabetic and could easily live off my hump for a few hours till it’s Saturday,) and keep my mouth shut about my need to observe abstinence on a Friday in Lent. Since Auntie and her family are cradle Catholics, they will “get it,” without my pointing it out to them.