No more churches

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FireFromHeaven

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I regularly talk with a friend. Recently he told me that catholics should just sell all the churches, give the money to the poor and hold Mass outside. I told him that this idea is preposterous and that churches serve a purpose but he remained unconvinced. Has anyone had a similar conversation? Any tips for if this topic should come up again?
 
Yes, tell him to sell his home and car give the money to the poor and live outside. its the same exact thing. All these people who like to think the Church is simply hording vast wealth wouldnt dare think of doing themselves what they think the Church should do and furthermore have never had to balance the books at a local parish! There is no vast wealth not even at the Vatican. As for the art and architecture at the Vatican, again, tell him to call his Congressman to propose selling all the National Monuments and, gold and National Parks and give that money to the poor! Such comments are simply the vapid musings of ignorant and sanctimonious hypocrites.
 
“To those who think the Vatican and other churches should be sold to the feed the world. Then next year we should sell Buckingham Palace, the following year the White House, oh we could also sell the Taj Mahal. By then there would be no more historical buildings and people would still be starving.”-adawgj

Clearly your friend doesn’t know how real estate works.
I’m still baffled of the idea of selling churches to feed the poor. Because their will always be poverty it is endless and nearly impossible to overcome. Maybe your friend could actually help out the poor and not rely on real estate prices of churches to go up and have almost no influence of those who do own church grounds to sell them.
 
What about the practicalities? If we sold our parish church, first we would have to repay our overdraft, second we would have to buy land (in a densely populated city) and then we would stand in the snow, hail, rain, thunderstorms and gale force winds for most of the year and get badly sunburned the rest of the time. Then we would get complaints about noise, forcing our faith on whoever happened to walk past and about a large number of folk congregating in one spot. Mass would be interrupted by noise from cars, people walking past talking loudly or taking the opportunity to be abusive etc. No toilets (need I say more). No disabled facilities. We would need 24 hour security to protect the area from fly tipping, trespassers etc.

And the amount of money raised would be small.

The Catholic Church gives millions each year to the poor, we are huge providers of education (adults and children), hospitals, orphanages, food, shelter etc etc. We are (given our lack of wealth) the most generous supplier of aid to the poor. Our missionary nuns and monks own nothing but the clothes on their backs, earn no money and give everything to serve Christ by serving Jesus.

I wonder what your friend gives to the poor?
 
FireFromHeaven said:
I regularly talk with a friend. Recently he told me that catholics should just sell all the churches, give the money to the poor and hold Mass outside. I told him that this idea is preposterous and that churches serve a purpose but he remained unconvinced. Has anyone had a similar conversation? Any tips for if this topic should come up again?
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Well - some good answers above…but I would simply respond with a single word question. Why?
What does he see as the advantage in holding mass outside? What about the many other functions of the Church (and associated) buildings? Should the parish house be sold and the priest live outside? Should the parish School buildings be sold and classes held outside?

Our parish has classrooms in the basement so selling one means selling the other. Many parishes use the Church building for outreach programs during the week. It’s not as though the building is used for an hour on Sunday and then closed up the rest of the time. So when an inner city Church determines to feed the poor, or run a pantry, or some other service to the poor…Where should they run it from? An open field?

The idea of “sell everything and give to the poor” is a profoundly good and holy thing. Give him credit for this.
However, it is not always practicable, especially where one is trying to service a community on many levels.

Peace
James
 
but then if one were to sell everything, and give it to the poor, doesn’t that person or church in turn become poor / so then isn’t what is created is one big tide that comes an goes, give it all to the poor become poor, and then those that have or are rich now give it back and then it just goes around and around. Give it all to the poor, or help the poor to be able to provide for themselves ? Give a fish, or teach the person to fish.
 
The Catholic Church already does give money. It specifically has programs for youth, elderly, disabled, sick. It has programs for alcoholics, people with addictions. It does disaster relief. It creates hospitals, schools, missions. If it were to just sell its property and give it away, where would we have mass?

So, I don’t know if people would want to go to mass outside in the snow. That revenue might dry up.

Further, I have worked with the poor, and the poor in today’s time is not the same as it was in Christ’s. Today, we have a LOT of people who are poor because they abuse drugs and alcohol. Some are poor because they are mentally ill. Some are poor because they are very lazy and won’t work. St. Paul even had those in his time!

I think throwing money at the problem, just giving people money also won’t necessarily solve it. That’s a temporary solution at best, one which may teach dependence. Remember the saying to give a man a fish is to feed him for one day, to teach him how to fish is to feed him for a lifetime.

A lot of times people, especially atheists, look to the Church only to criticize. How much volunteering has he done? How much money has he given? The Church encourages us all to roll up our sleeves, volunteer, donate, or both!
 
Further, I’ve been poor in my life different times, and I can tell you that one of the very few things I found comfort in was Church, receiving the sacraments, and its fellowship,
 
  1. I beg you, with all that is in me and more, that, when it is appropriate and you judge it profitable, you humbly beg the clergy to revere above everything else the most holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ and His holy written words which consecrate [His] Body. 3. The chalices, corporals, appointments of the altar, and everything which pertains to the sacrifice must be of precious material. 4. And if the most holy Body of the Lord is very poorly reserved in any place, it should be placed in a precious location under lock and kept according to the mandate of the Church and carried about with great reverence and administered to others with discretion. 5. In a similar way the written words of the Lord, whenever they are found in an improper place, should be gathered together and kept in a becoming place.
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Now, who do you suppose wrote that?
 
When I first came to Mexico and Ecuador, I saw the poverty of the Third World! You can’t imagine! I felt so guilty as an American.

Here, especially, I gave away stuff like crazy, and what I found is that it almost never went the way I wanted. A friend of mine gave to a poor man. By the time he came back, that guy was drunk!

I once gave to a guy who was complaining how his 2 daughters didn’t have money for uniforms for school. I gave him money, and it got used for a party!

I once gave money to a lame guy who promised, in a Church, that he needed it for crutches. You know what? He used it for something else.

Further, we had a LOT of people here who had these mystery skin problems. I thought it was diabetes…tremendous ulceration, very deep. I felt so sorry for these people, was giving them money right and left. Do you know an article came out, think in Mexico’s Yahoo about how there was a new drug out the heroine of the poor! It showed pictures, and it looked JUST like what these guys had.

I thought, “Oh…my Gosh! I have been giving money and stuff to a bunch of addicts!”

Also, we had a lot of people faking it, pretending to be sick. Some would even cut themselves, pour a purple disinfectant on it to get lots of sympathy! Often, they used this money for drugs, probably most of the time!

Anyway, we had one guy who I was told pretended he had only one leg. A friend gave to him only to see him walking around later! Her husband scolded her upside down and backwards for that!

A friend of mine told me of other cases, a guy who pretended to be blind and would sit out there and beg. We’ve had cases of non-poor, rich, going out and begging. We’ve had people stop working, to beg, because they could make more money begging than working.

We have also had guys put tourniquets on their legs so that their legs would puff up, get all swelled up. They could even leave these on long periods…like days…get lots of sympathy and money.

I’ve offered numerous times to help these sick people. I said to…I think 4 or 5 that I would pay the cab to take them to the Red Cross and pay for their treatment. NONE was interested!

I offered a few people who told me they were addicted to drugs that I’d take them that minute in a cab to a shelter. NONE were interested.

I have a guy I helped support who now bought himself a crutch, a mask, and begs near where I live. I now believe he’s, also, an addict!

I’ve tried to tutor illiterate people how to read and write. Unbelievably, even thought illiteracy is prevelant, I have been unable to find even ONE motivated student. They prefer to not learn. I have even gone to their houses! They STILL don’t want to learn.

So, poverty is a very complex problem, not as easy to resolve as one might think.
 
If you just give these people money, odds are they will squander it and be in the same hole the next day, in many cases. Some don’t know how to budget money. Some may have an addiction.

I had one student who was drunk or hungover much of the time, came to only a class or two. That was it.
 
Oh yeah, we have some parents who will not put their kids in school, who will use them to beg for them, instead. Again, I tell you, it’s complex. The best way to get out of poverty is education, and here that next generation will be doing that same thing.

I left Mexico for almost a decade. I came back, and I saw exactly the same people begging as I did before I left!

Also, it really isn’t advisable to even give the poor money in most case, much better to give “in kind”…in the form of food, etc., so that money can’t so easily be misused.

I once took a class on poverty…some causes of it. Some causes have to do with how computers have taken jobs, etc. Like I say, it’s complicated.
 
JRKH said:
Well - some good answers above…but I would simply respond with a single word question. Why?
What does he see as the advantage in holding mass outside? What about the many other functions of the Church (and associated) buildings? Should the parish house be sold and the priest live outside? Should the parish School buildings be sold and classes held outside?

Our parish has classrooms in the basement so selling one means selling the other. Many parishes use the Church building for outreach programs during the week. It’s not as though the building is used for an hour on Sunday and then closed up the rest of the time. So when an inner city Church determines to feed the poor, or run a pantry, or some other service to the poor…Where should they run it from? An open field?

The idea of “sell everything and give to the poor” is a profoundly good and holy thing. Give him credit for this.
However, it is not always practicable, especially where one is trying to service a community on many levels.

Peace
James
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Ge said it seemed much more beautiful outside and reflected God’s creation better. I told him that it is preferable to hold mass inside as outside weather is bad and then he brought up how buying buildings was an “unecesary expense” and that we should just sell all the buildings and give the money to charity.
 
Plenty of non-church goers and atheists and secular media keen to tell catholics what should be done (by catholics) to help the poor.

Funny how “the poor” are always someone else’s problem.

The churches I visit don’t belong to me. They aren’t mine to sell. And the past generations of church-goers who put their (after-tax) income into the collection bowls which built and maintained those same church buildings, didn’t give their permission for me to sell them even if I DID want to.

Lets not forget either, that the poor are also among those who worship in Gods House. Who has the right to sell something which poor widows don’t want sold.

"So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”
Luke 21:3-4
 
FireFromHeaven said:
He said it seemed much more beautiful outside and reflected God’s creation better.
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Well - as you said to him, weather can have a lot to do with whether or not it is “beautiful” outside. As someone else mentioned above…He could sell his house, give to the poor and live outside too…after all it is, “much more beautiful outside and reflected God’s creation better”…😃
then he brought up how buying buildings was an “unecesary expense” and that we should just sell all the buildings and give the money to charity.
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Yea - I’ve heard this before…but I bet he won’t want to follow this to it’s logical conclusion.
  1. we sell the building and give the money away…
  2. We have no place to gather for worship except maybe private homes or the occasional donated use of a hall.
  3. The Faithful find it difficult to know when and where worship is to be and also difficult to organize and administer the various programs the parish wishes to promote.
  4. Because of these difficulties, the poor actually wind up with less help rather than more.
  5. In order to improve this situation, the Parish decides it needs to acquire a permanent home from which to run it’s various ministries…
    And we are back to where we started.
Any sizable group who has organized to help the poor, or disabled, or some other group has followed the same path.
They start small - working from houses, garages and basements - but as their ministry grows so does thir space requirements and eventually they find that it is much more efficient to have a central, dedicated location instead of trying to function in some “ad-hoc” manner.

This is what has happened tot he Church over the many centuries.

Peace
James
 
Maybe you should respond with “Interesting thought. What have you done yourself for the poor of the world?”

I often wonder about people that think this way. I always dislike the thought of people going without and true utter poverty really makes me sad. However, I do not think giving to people and not offering them a way to sustain themselves long term is the answer. This just promotes dependance and apathy, IMO.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
I regularly talk with a friend. Recently he told me that catholics should just sell all the churches, give the money to the poor and hold Mass outside. I told him that this idea is preposterous and that churches serve a purpose but he remained unconvinced. Has anyone had a similar conversation? Any tips for if this topic should come up again?
Click to expand...
I would not take your friend to be too serious. If he goes through the exercise of thinking that through he would quickly identify that the church locations would need to have something to shield them from heavy winds, the elements, electricity for lighting, plumbing, and so on and at the conclusion he would find that buildings are our best solution for addressing these various needs.
 
By the way, the author of my quote is St. Francis of Assisi, Epistula ad Custodes.
 
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