No more Liberal or Traditional

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thirddec

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I have been involved in many debates here and the words Liberal and Traditional have been used a lot and as i’m reading some posts it dawned on me that people are using the words interchangably in different situations and attaching meanings and interpretations that are positive or negative too them in a variety of unrelated ways.

For example some would say a Liberal wants the mass to stay in its present form and would say changing it back is traditional. But then others are using the words to describe Doctrines not practice as say What is Heaven or Hell etc.

This unclear use isn’t helpfull as it then equates someone who wants to keep the mass in the vernacular on the same footing as someone who may be quite dangerous in their doctrines which isn’t related. So with this in mind I would like to drop the Words Liberal and Traditional from the topic and Just have a list of the actual doctrines that are being promoted by some in the Church and have a discussion based on these rather that hinting at them using words Liberal/Traditional.

So can people please use this thread to outline problem areas where there is too wide a gap in interpretation so we can at least within this forum see if we can come to a unified stance, because if we can’t what chance the Church in general as by participating here we at least show religion is somehow fundamental to our lives.

I dont want this thread to be the discussion arena just the outline ( agenda so to speak ) then we can develope the discussion on other threads.

I hope this makes sense somehow as my mind and my explainations don’t always match up. I’m just concerned that because maybe i’ve been lucky and been shielded from some apparent new dangerous teachings I have been arguing for a position based on a misunderstanding of words. 🙂
 
We need some humility.

We are like the blind men, who did not know, what the elephant is, were sit at different parts of the body of an elephant w/o possibility to tough other parts, and were charged to define what the elephant is.

There is no possible commun ground on the basis, that my knowledge, experience , whatever is the Truth.

The only way to get closer to the truth is to see the point of view of others, other members of this group, other religions, other philosophical backgrounds; and accept with humility that only God is the Truth, we are partial, particular, limited beings.
 
People just like using buzz words and groupings when making arguments. I completely agree with you that it isn’t in anyway helpful to the discussion because often it results in people disagreeing with a view point not as a result of solid well reasoned thought, but simply because it seems to be part of “liberal” thought and they associate “liberal” with being universally bad. I would certainly like for people to stop using such labels, BUT it seems like kind of a pipe dream when it permeates almost every aspect of political and religious culture.
 
I sort of like orthodox and heterodox for buzzwords, myself. 😃

If we could at least get to the point where the majority are orthodox in their beliefs, the other issues would be tiny in comparison.
 
In definition there is no such thing as a Liberal or Conservative Catholic -
only good Catholics who try to adhere to the teachings of the Church as defined in the “CCC 2nd Ed”, and bad Catholics.
We are all required to adhere to the “CCC 2nd Ed”.

There is no such definition as a Traditional Catholic person or untraditional Catholic person in reality.

There is the approved Tridentine Mass (Roman Missal 1962), sometimes refered to as the Traditional Mass or Latin Mass or Extraordinary Mass.

There is the approved Novus Ordo Mass of 1969, with new updates/changes that will go into effect Nov., 2011. Rather than being in Latin (Traditional Mass), it is in the local language of the people and has some other differences. This Mass is called the Ordinary Mass.

Since both Masses are approved by the Pope, there should be no discussion over which one is better. That should be determined by the individual. - Whichever he/she finds more reverant and brings him/her closer to God.

Cardinal Burke said either Mass when done badly can lead to a loss of faith.
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100868.htm

(FYI - I attend both the Tridentine and Novis Ordo Masses, with the latter being closest to my home. I must admit that at first I was surprised to see all the young people attending the Tridentine Mass. Girls and young women wearing mantillas too.)
 
They are necessary in order to differentiate what may be Catholic to someone, may not be Catholic to someone else. The Catholic Church is growing increasingly divided as far as ideology goes and labeling helps point out camps.
 
Labeling a person for the sake of division of Jesus’s Church is sinful.
 
Labeling puts people in camps and thats my problem, as camps remind me of competition, warfare, one up man ship but not unity and proper prayerfull discussion with the view of understanding and advancement in truth and love. This is why I dont like labels especially when I may be called liberal because I may have one opinion on one discussion but have an opinion on another that may be considered traditional. I don’t like the idea of camps as all. I would like to see unity in the church and understand there will always be differences in opinions but when the discussion has been thorough and complete surley some unified opinion will be taken by the church and we all should pull into line and support like proper soldiers for Christ. One unified Army for Christ. What I would like is some ideas for threads that we can explore in unity without labels that are causing genuine concerns so that we can start some of the comming together to holding Christs message for the Future guided by the Holy Spirit.

For instance Where will the Priests come from? 🙂
 
Great thread, thirddec, and posts, ANNE2. Even the ambiguous forum name of “Traditional Catholicism” fosters division. Supposedly, when the new and refined translations of the liturgical prayers become the norm, those who resist the changes will become the new ‘traditionalists’.
 
Stylites said:
Great thread, thirddec, and posts, ANNE2. Even the ambiguous forum name of “Traditional Catholicism” fosters division. Supposedly, when the new and refined translations of the liturgical prayers become the norm, those who resist the changes will become the new ‘traditionalists’.
Click to expand...
Uh, no.

Those who resist the corrected translation will be dissidents.
 
I think the Church needs to emphasize Spirituality. It is as though many have lost the way to a God first lifestyle. The secular world has encroached so deeply that it has taken over many peoples lives. The Church needs to re-teach those who look at Mass as something you have to do. Many modern day Catholics do not live the Faith. Catholicism is just a footnote on their resume of life. Putting God first has fallen out of fashion, and people have remade Catholicism in there own minds to fit their needs. Catholics do not spend any time learning their Faith, and in essence have lost their Faith. Catholics now tend to pick and choose what portions of the Faith they wish to practice and those they do not, calling it good. We are all guilty of not calling people out on this. We all need to live our Faith. Our lives and its decisions should be guided by the teachings of the Church. That is where Catholics need to step forward and let their Faith shine outwardly.
 
I agree it is wrong to divide but the Church is divided. One must come to realize that. It’s ironic that the OP is ranting about this when the forum is dubbed “Traditional Catholicism”

I’m not sure labels will ever go away…
 
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