No Morning Mass on days with a funeral?

[Jegudiel]

In my home parish we started the Rosary at 7, Mon-Sat. Mass was at 7:30, over by 8. Every day no matter what else was going on. Except when Father was on vacation.

Then we still had Rosary at 7 and at 7:30, the readings were done, prayers said and reserved Eucharist distributed. If you have a Deacon, you can have a homily. I think if you have the same kind faithful daily Mass attendees we did, you just need to go to the Pastor and propose a committee who takes care of this.

You don’t need a priest for a prayer service and you don’t need him for Mass if you have reserved Eucharist. And more Deacons would be a big help. (I can’t recall if they still call it Mass when the priest doesn’t confect the Eucharist during it, but it’s essentially the same thing.)

Without a deacon a layperson can still offer a reflection based on the official ritual. When I conduct a communion service I read something verbatim from one of the Church Fathers or another authoritative source.

We DO need priests for the Mass! Remember the greatest grace comes not from receiving Holy Communion but from being at the foot of Calvary when Jesus is sacrificed to His Father for our sins. Bathing in that grace, in that glory, in that power is the primary reason we come to Mass. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and communion services are two entirely different things…

 

[Jegudiel]

I very much agree! I sometimes attend a Byzantine Catholic Parish. The former pastor celebrated the Divine Liturgy EVERY DAY. The new pastor usually 6, sometimes 5 days per week. The cool, in thing amongst some priests in the Eparchy is to celebrate ONE Divine Liturgy per week on Sundays. Their reasoning? “Ancient praxis” and “to be more like the Orthodox.” Bull!

To a man, those priests who adopted the one liturgy/week schema are clearly the least motivated priests in the eparchy. I shake my head at the excuse of “a daily Mass is not obligatory.”

I have seen a couple posts that indicate their parish has a Saturday A.M. mass. Wow! That never happens in my area!** I think once a priest starts abandoning the celebration, others follow suit, and there is no daily on Saturday … anywhere.** Same thing now with abandoning the A.M. liturgy when there is a funeral. One day, no church will have A.M. masses with others copying the legality of the Canon to avoid celebrating. I read a comment by a priest who excused this by saying that a daily mass is not obligatory. Oh? Maybe we should all stay home?

Yes, I do believe it is a matter relating to the priesthood. If a priest had not a single parishioner attend, he would still offer the holy sacrifice with the altar server, “for My good and the good of all His holy Church.” Why else become a priest? What message does this send?

Phemie suggested that mass will become unimportant when it is routinely replaced by communion services. How about the message of abandoning it on Saturdays and funeral days? Not important enough?

How about scheduling a vacation break during the octaves of Christmas or Easter? Not important? Oh people, we do not need to pray for vocations, but for our priests to be more dedicated, faithful, ardently giving witness to the importance of the mass.

 

[Sirach2]

Jegudiel:

The cool, in-thing amongst some priests in the Eparchy is to celebrate ONE Divine Liturgy per week on Sundays. Their reasoning? “Ancient praxis” and “to be more like the Orthodox.”

Does it make you wonder why they became a priest? Hebriew 5:1 comes to mind:
For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins.

It is not dependent on anyone being there whatsoever, but upon his ministry to God on our behalf to offer the sacrifice. This is why he was called among men and chosen for this high priestly office. It sounds to me like, “Excuse me, Lord - I have more important things on my agenda today.”

For the record, I really, truly like our new priest. He prays a beautiful mass, gives an excellent homily that centers on the daily scriptures, and is vested at least ten minutes before mass begins. He chooses the hymns to coincide with the readings and never skimps on the number of verses. He is open anf friendly with all, a likeable personality, for sure.

 

[Julia_Mae]

And there you have the biggest problem with allowing ‘Communion Services’ on days other than Sunday – and even then, if truth be known. The laity starts to believe that having a Communion Service is just as good as Mass. As long as Fr. consecrates a couple of hundred hosts who needs him until the ciborium is empty?!.

But it* isn’t* a “problem” at all. It’s simply a fact. The true problem, as I see it, lies in the attitude that worship is either less meaningful without, or dependent on, a priest. If the people wish to start the day, or end it, with the reading of Scripture, a commentary, maybe some meditation time, and reception of the Eucharist, how is this a “problem?” It’s a good thing! A great thing. And while different, certainly just as good as Mass.

I’ve always had access to an Adoration chapel. Ever see a priest in one? Does the absence of a priest make the Eucharist we are adoring less real? Does it make our prayers and devotions less valuable to God?

In fact, the Communion Service, (thanks for reminding me what it’s called) is much more Traditional, ancient, in fact. This is what we all started out doing, even before we were called “Christians.” People met in one another’s homes and read Scripture and prayed and someone sometimes spoke and they broke bread and drank wine and believed in the presence of Christ in those accidents.

Do you think it was less “real Catholic” in 12A.D. than in 2012, with all the added features that surround Mass? It’s very nice to have a church to meet in, to not be killed if we get caught. But it’s not less worship now than then.

When we have the Communion service when Father is absent, in a way it is a testament to stronger faith, because we know that God is with us, not because of someone ordained being present, but because He loves us and our worship is of Him and to Him and not about anything, or anyone, else.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There is nothing wrong with this. A priest in a parish is a very busy man as it is.

But I do find something troubling in the original post and would like some clarification on it. I think this may be symptomatic of something but I will get into that after the clarification.

Due to many parish closings and priests having "days off,"

Why the quotes around days off?

 

[Sirach2]

Why the quotes? Because I don’t know what else the proper name is. Maybe “rest and relaxation?” Time out? Away for a day? But when it is common knowledge that Father is away every certain weekday, that is usually the term people call it. I may be mistaken, though, so I put it in quotes.

Incidentally, you know well how important it is to a religious to be able to attend daily mass. My profession is no less solemn than yours, but it manifests itself in a secular arena rather than a monastery. I take my promise very seriously and try not to miss.

I agree that the priest is often overly busy, but that was not my concern. I tried to find a solution so that other people who likewise have busy schedules do not make a wild-goose trip to a church when their priest is away, only to find the doors locked. A couple of suggestions were well able to solve this, if the pastor is willing to post on the website, or have a sign-up sheet for outsiders. There also ought to be a way to contact families who scheduled masses and paid a stipend for a particular date.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Why the quotes? Because I don’t know what else the proper name is. Maybe “rest and relaxation?” Time out? Away for a day? But when it is common knowledge that Father is away every certain weekday, that is usually the term people call it. I may be mistaken, though, so I put it in quotes.

Thank you for this clarification.

The reason I asked is that there are some laity that believe that a priest should not have any time off. So when they would use such quotes it is done in a sarcastic manner.

I see that you do not believe this.

Incidentally, you know well how important it is to a religious to be able to attend daily mass. My profession is no less solemn than yours, but it manifests itself in a secular arena rather than a monastery. I take my promise very seriously and try not to miss.

I am not sure about the levels of vows and their comparable solemnity.

In my religious house when there is another Mass going on during the day that most (if not all) of the house will be attending then the house Mass will be canceled.

So what is being done by your priest is what we would do in my house.

I agree that the priest is often overly busy, but that was not my concern. I tried to find a solution so that other people who likewise have busy schedules do not make a wild-goose trip to a church when their priest is away, only to find the doors locked. A couple of suggestions were well able to solve this, if the pastor is willing to post on the website, or have a sign-up sheet for outsiders. There also ought to be a way to contact families who scheduled masses and paid a stipend for a particular date.

If a priest receives a stipend for a Mass he must celebrate that Mass.

 

[Julia_Mae]

If a priest receives a stipend for a Mass he must celebrate that Mass.

Yet, many don’t.

I’m not sure about your view of Pastors taking days off. Religious don’t get days off, do they? Maybe they do. Nuns laying on a beach taking a week off from praying strikes me as, fairly unbelievable. If all being a Diocesan priest is, is fulfilling educational requirements and getting a job with the Diocese, then, how is that different from a protestant?

Our pastor arranged his personal schedule around his duty. He never had regular days off. He chose to devote his life to God through the Priesthood. If a man wants to work 8-4 with week-ends and holidays off, maybe he needs a different job.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yet, many don’t.

You have no way to know this. Not only that but it is calumny and is a grave offense.

I’m not sure about your view of Pastors taking days off. Religious don’t get days off, do they? Maybe they do. Nuns laying on a beach taking a week off from praying strikes me as, fairly unbelievable. If all being a Diocesan priest is, is fulfilling educational requirements and getting a job with the Diocese, then, how is that different from a protestant?

Our pastor arranged his personal schedule around his duty. He never had regular days off. He chose to devote his life to God through the Priesthood. If a man wants to work 8-4 with week-ends and holidays off, maybe he needs a different job.

You have a lot to learn.

Religious do get time off. Time to take care of themselves and their concerns. Time to visit with family and friends.

If you have issues with that then I suggest that you speak to someone to reorder your thoughts.

No religious or secular priest is on the job 24/7. I am sorry if that is hard for you to understand but it is a fact.

 

[Sirach2]

ByzCath:

I am not sure about the levels of vows and their comparable solemnity.

In my religious house when there is another Mass going on during the day that most (if not all) of the house will be attending then the house Mass will be canceled.

So what is being done by your priest is what we would do in my house.

We seem to be going in circles.
Maybe I’m just not making my point very clear.

Can we agree that the decision made by yours or my priest is beyond our control? Does that mean I should likewise go on R&R and be glad I don’t have to go to mass? No. I miss it very much and will check out 3 or 4 nearby parishes and attend there. The problem would arise when there is an unannounced cancellation, which would make me rather upset. That’s why, loving my neighbor as myself, I am just as concerned for them making a goose trip to my parish as if it happened to me. Certainly, priests get sick and are not able to celebrate – I understand that. But to deliberately choose to cancel a scheduled mass listed in the bulletin, because of a funeral later, causes me a bit of scandal. At that point, it is too late to travel to another parish.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

We seem to be going in circles.
Maybe I’m just not making my point very clear.

Can we agree that the decision made by yours or my priest is beyond our control? Does that mean I should likewise go on R&R and be glad I don’t have to go to mass? No. I miss it very much and will check out 3 or 4 nearby parishes and attend there. The problem would arise when there is an unannounced cancellation, which would make me rather upset. That’s why, loving my neighbor as myself, I am just as concerned for them making a goose trip to my parish as if it happened to me. Certainly, priests get sick and are not able to celebrate – I understand that. But to deliberately choose to cancel a scheduled mass listed in the bulletin, because of a funeral later, causes me a bit of scandal. At that point, it is too late to travel to another parish.

Funerals are usually not scheduled. They happen. I can see your point but I can also see your priesr’s point.

The priest is not just taking the day off. There is preparation that must be done and this may mean he is unable to prepare for the regular Mass. It is not ideal but I would hazard a guess that this not not a very common occurrance.

There is no scandal caused here.

 

[Sirach2]

And the priest’s point is …??? I have tried charitably to discern a good reason, but am a bit dismayed because none of the priests in our area at the surrounding parishes do this, nor did our former pastor. They always celebrated BOTH liturgies, especially since, as you said, it is not a common occurrence. I have difficulty believing there is a lot of preparatory work involved prior to celebrating a funeral, when there has been at least 2-3 days notice of the death. One poster mentioned, and it is true, that mass for the daily calendar takes only 25-30 minutes.

Ah well, it is your right to disagree, and mine to be upset. When I figure out a good reason why this is done, particularly when the Canon provides a dispensation for an extra liturgy in the day, maybe it can be comfortably shelved. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And the priest’s point is …??? I have tried charitably to discern a good reason, but am a bit dismayed because none of the priests in our area at the surrounding parishes do this, nor did our former pastor. They always celebrated BOTH liturgies, especially since, as you said, it is not a common occurrence. I have difficulty believing there is a lot of preparatory work involved prior to celebrating a funeral, when there has been at least 2-3 days notice of the death. One poster mentioned, and it is true, that mass for the daily calendar takes only 25-30 minutes.

Ah well, it is your right to disagree, and mine to be upset. When I figure out a good reason why this is done, particularly when the Canon provides a dispensation for an extra liturgy in the day, maybe it can be comfortably shelved. Thanks for your comments.

Sorry to get a bit technical but the Canons do not provide a dispensation. The Canons allow for the local ordinary to provide a dispensation.

Also the preparation for a Mass consists of going over the prayers involved and the preparaton of the homily. Bi just finished my first preaching class and we were taught tbat one must spend at least an hour in preparation for each minute of the homily. This seems to be a standard among those who teach preaching. Many of the best at preaching go even higher (on very well known jesuit (please no comments on the orthodoxy of the jesuits here) says that he does a minimum of 10 hours per minute but the he only preachres once a month).

I think that in this thred there have been put foward as to why, you might not think them good enough but . . .

Yes you can be upset about this (but I wouldn’t go so far as to say this is your right) but the priest is doing nothing wrong and is working fully within the Canons. The argument that others do it is not really valid as he is with the Law.

 

[Jegudiel]

But it isn’t** a “problem” at all. It’s simply a fact. The true problem, as I see it, lies in the attitude that worship is either less meaningful without, or dependent on, a priest. If the people wish to start the day, or end it, with the reading of Scripture, a commentary, maybe some meditation time, and reception of the Eucharist, how is this a “problem?” It’s a good thing! A great thing. And while different, certainly just as good as Mass.

I’ve always had access to an Adoration chapel. Ever see a priest in one? Does the absence of a priest make the Eucharist we are adoring less real? Does it make our prayers and devotions less valuable to God?

In fact, the Communion Service, (thanks for reminding me what it’s called) is much more Traditional, ancient, in fact. This is what we all started out doing, even before we were called “Christians.” People met in one another’s homes and read Scripture and prayed and someone sometimes spoke and they broke bread and drank wine and believed in the presence of Christ in those accidents.

Do you think it was less “real Catholic” in 12A.D. than in 2012, with all the added features that surround Mass? It’s very nice to have a church to meet in, to not be killed if we get caught. But it’s not less worship now than then.

When we have the Communion service when Father is absent, in a way it is a testament to stronger faith, because we know that God is with us, not because of someone ordained being present, but because He loves us and our worship is of Him and to Him and not about anything, or anyone, else.

Wow, you really don’t understand the HUGE difference between a Catholic Sacrificial Liturgy such as the Mass and a communion service. That really IS a problem.

 

[Jegudiel]

Sorry to get a bit technical but the Canons do not provide a dispensation. The Canons allow for the local ordinary to provide a dispensation.

Also the preparation for a Mass consists of going over the prayers involved and the preparaton of the homily. Bi just finished my first preaching class and we were taught tbat one must spend at least an hour in preparation for each minute of the homily. This seems to be a standard among those who teach preaching. Many of the best at preaching go even higher (on very well known jesuit (please no comments on the orthodoxy of the jesuits here) says that he does a minimum of 10 hours per minute but the he only preachres once a month).

I think that in this thred there have been put foward as to why, you might not think them good enough but . . .

Yes you can be upset about this (but I wouldn’t go so far as to say this is your right) but the priest is doing nothing wrong and is working fully within the Canons. The argument that others do it is not really valid as he is with the Law.

No. The preparation times you suggest are simply not realistic for daily Mass o Divine Liturgies. While a priest certainly could spend that level of time, there is nothing that demands that he does. In fact there is no demand he preach at either daily liturgy. To use this as an excuse not to celebrate a daily liturgy is highly problematic.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You have no way to know this.

Yeah, I do. I am Catholic, I’ve been in a variety of parishes, worked in the offices, kept the lists of Mass intentions. People pay. Priests don’t say the Masses for one reason or another. That’s my personal experience which is not calumny, it’s fact. This whole forum is rife with folks reporting priests not following the GIRM, my experience is hardly unique or unusual. .

You have a lot to learn.

Religious do get time off. Time to take care of themselves and their concerns. Time to visit with family and friends.

If you have issues with that then I suggest that you speak to someone to reorder your thoughts.

No religious or secular priest is on the job 24/7. I am sorry if that is hard for you to understand but it is a fact.

I am not a topic. Please post to me without the ad homs in future. I am well-aware that religious visit family and so forth. What they don’t get, and shouldn’t, and would be appalled to consider, is a “five-day work week.”

 

[Jegudiel]

Funerals are usually not scheduled. They happen. I can see your point but I can also see your priesr’s point.

The priest is not just taking the day off. There is preparation that must be done and this may mean he is unable to prepare for the regular Mass. It is not ideal but I would hazard a guess that this not not a very common occurrance.

There is no scandal caused here.

That just doesn’t sell. The preparation and celebration of a daily Mass is somewhere between 25 and 45 minutes. The notion that a priest cannot find 25-45 minutes in his schedule for such an important (the MOST important!) responsibility simply does not ring true.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

No. The preparation times you suggest are simply not realistic for daily Mass o Divine Liturgies. While a priest certainly could spend that level of time, there is nothing that demands that he does. In fact there is no demand he preach at either daily liturgy. To use this as an excuse not to celebrate a daily liturgy is highly problematic.

This is not an excuse to not celebrate a daily liturgy. He is celebrating a daily liturgy by celebrating the Mass for the funeral.

While it is true that a homily is not required at a daily Mass it is highly recommended by the GIRM to do so.

I will also add that there is no requirement that any priest celebrate a daily Mass what so ever.

 

[Jegudiel]

Doing the absolute minimum per the “Canons” is extremely sad. It’s akin to reducing the vocation of the priesthood down to a highly regulated union job. Where it becomes a matter of minimal compliance to the rules rather than doing the right thing.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Wow, you really don’t understand the HUGE difference between a Catholic Sacrificial Liturgy such as the Mass and a communion service. That really IS a problem.

No, I understand the difference quite well. The issue is that I do not consider, in terms of this discussion, one being vastly superior to the other. If you think one is, then make your argument, don’t just criticize another poster.