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LennyFL
Guest
Non-Catholics say that this means that you should not pray to saints. How would one combat that?
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Anthony_V
Guest
Jesus is referring to the redemptive act of atonement (mediation) in that passage, not intercession (praying for one another).
[BIBLEDRB]James 5:16[/BIBLEDRB]
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bzkoss236
Guest
By the fact that even the Saints have to go through Jesus to get to the Father. The Saints in Heaven are still Men. It the same as if you ask someone here on Earth to pray for you.
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Trishie
Guest
Jesus demonstrated His approval of Mary’s intercession, but accepting it, and responding to it:
In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus,
and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.
Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death,
just possible loss of face of the hosts,
of the wedding feast of Cana.
John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him."
Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need?!
forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=14057470
In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus,
and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.
Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death,
just possible loss of face of the hosts,
of the wedding feast of Cana.
John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him."
Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need?!
forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=14057470
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aspirant
Guest
Other people have answered regarding what Jesus said. This is related:
Paul to Timothy:
Paul to Timothy:
Sometimes we will hear non-Catholics claiming that the red sentence prohibits us to ask saints to pray for us. But the green passages show differently: Christ’s unique mediation does not stop Christians from interceding for one another; rather, Christ’s unique mediation is what makes it possible for Christians to intercede for one another.
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Darryl_B
Guest
Your originally posted by Paul to Timothy made me laugh so much.
I confess that as a Protestant we knew the Red Section very well. The Green Section was recognized in the sense that intercession was really an interruption, ie it was prayer that God would redirect leaders in the right way and not let them go down the wrong way.
But then again as a Protestant we knew II Timothy 3:16 but not I Timothy 3:15 and it is so easy to remember - just take away one off the book and take away one off the verse.
Timothy is so different when viewed through the eyes of a Catholic.
I confess that as a Protestant we knew the Red Section very well. The Green Section was recognized in the sense that intercession was really an interruption, ie it was prayer that God would redirect leaders in the right way and not let them go down the wrong way.
But then again as a Protestant we knew II Timothy 3:16 but not I Timothy 3:15 and it is so easy to remember - just take away one off the book and take away one off the verse.
Timothy is so different when viewed through the eyes of a Catholic.
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aspirant
Guest
I’m glad you enjoyed it.
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LennyFL
Guest
Ahh I see. That makes sense but does the Bible ever say anything about talking to saints that have died and asking them to intervene or to pray for us? I heard that there’s something that talks about that in one of the books the Protestants took out. Is that true?
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adf417
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]Rom 15:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Thes 5:25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 TH 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Eph 6:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Tob 12:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]
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aspirant
Guest
From a Lutheran perspective, which differs from most protestant communions, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
Here the Lutheran Reformers recognize that the saints in Heaven do, indeed pray for us, the Church, in a general way. They also mention, as scripture, 2 Macc, and the dream there.
Following, the reason why we do not practice Invocation of the Saints:
The concern is that, from scripture, nothing is certain regarding the practice, that we do not receive from scripture a command, promise, or an example.
My own perspective is that, while we do not practice invocation of the saints, we should be reticent to go beyond that, as invocation has been practiced for centuries both in the East and West, and millions have received comfort by it. I see no reason to believe that God does not hear these prayers, even if the saints in Heaven do not.
Jon
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Tomster
Guest
. . . “even if the saints in heaven do not.”
I know the Book of Revelation was not held in high esteem by Martin Luther Jon, but it is still part of the New Testament. There are some verses in that Book which, how shall I say, “speak” to your denial.
Just sayin’, Jon. Just sayin’.
Abundant blessings to you and yours.
Tomster
Hi Tomster,. . . “even if the saints in heaven do not.”
I know the Book of Revelation was not held in high esteem by Martin Luther Jon, but it is still part of the New Testament. There are some verses in that Book which, how shall I say, “speak” to your denial.
Just sayin’, Jon. Just sayin’.
Abundant blessings to you and yours.
Tomster
And His blessings also with you and yours, my friend.
Of course, and I meant that in a “worst case” scenario . I believe that scripture implies that the saints do have an awareness of the struggles and events of the Church Militant, particularly in Christ’s words in Luke 15:7,* Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. *
How could there be joy in Heaven over repentance if there’s no awareness of repentance?
What isn’t clear from scripture, even considering 2 Macc, is whether or not we should ask the saints in Heaven to intercede for us. At a minimum, in my view, to do so is not idolatry, and it is not necromancy.
Jon
Jon
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aspirant
Guest
FWIW, I understood your point, Jon.
Also, FWIW, Martin Luther himself did ask for the intercession of saints, even after his “farewell” to Rome. I know that not all Lutherans did so, not all do so now, and Lutherans are not obliged to do so, but there is some precedent within Lutheranism for those who wish to.
Martin Luther:
Kind of like there’s precedent for aural confession within Lutheranism, even though many Lutherans opt not to do it.
Luther’s views did, however, change over time regarding invocation. That said, regardless of his views, Lutherans generally follow the approach of the confessions, as stated above.FWIW, I understood your point, Jon.
Also, FWIW, Martin Luther himself did ask for the intercession of saints, even after his “farewell” to Rome. I know that not all Lutherans did so, not all do so now, and Lutherans are not obliged to do so, but there is some precedent within Lutheranism for those who wish to.
Kind of like there’s precedent for aural confession within Lutheranism, even though many Lutherans opt not to do it.
What is also true is that there is no reason not to pray to God, asking Him to listen to the intercessions of His saints in Heaven on our behalf, just as we ask Him to hear the prayers of the Church Militant.
A few years back, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer, and while the treatments have been successful, I continue to carry a picture of St. Peregrine, not because I have asked him to pray for me, but because I know he prays for all cancer patients, including me. It is a blessing and comfort knowing this.
Jon
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aspirant
Guest
Fair enough. I’m just saying “not without precedent.”
Yes! We too ask God to listen to their intercessions on our behalf. The Byzantine liturgy, for example, asks Jesus: “Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us.” (Luther’s prayer above-- “May Christ grant us this through the intercession and for the sake of His dear Mother Mary”-- reminds me of this.)
And, among Protestants, such thinking is not unique to Lutherans such as yourself. I have a non-denom Evangelical friend, for example, who takes great comfort in the conviction that her grandmother prays for her family. Even if my friend does not directly ask for her grandmother’s prayers, she too shares our belief that the saints in Heaven love us and pray for us.
That’s awesome. I’ll pray for you, too. If you have a spare moment, please say a prayer for me.
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Bklynguy
Guest
It is true that you cannot come to the Father except through Jesus. But we are not going to the Father through the saints–we are asking them to pray with us and for us.
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Miriam1947
Guest
Glad of the success of your treatments, Jon. That is certainly good news.
In my store we carry inexpensive medals of Saints and I always give a free St. Peregrine medal to anyone who comes in looking for a Saint for cancer. I also give free holy cards of St. Peregrine as well.
A very dear friend of mine still carries the St. Peregrine medal I gave to her when her, unfortunately late, husband was suffering from pancreatic cancer. It continues to give her comfort and she is not Catholic.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
It is so wonderful when one is blessed from the prayers of others.
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