No one comes to the FATHER, but through ME.

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CatholicKnight3

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What does that mean to you?

Does that mean Christ gave man the last word on who goes to heaven, or does it mean that Christ has the last word and HE will be the judge?

I see many translate that into, WE need to accept HIM as our personal Lord and Savior.

The one thing wrong with that interpretation is it tends to oblige God on how HE will judge.

I notice for example, in none of the BEATITUDES, Christ never said, Blessed are they who accept ME as THEIR “Personal Lord and Savior.”

When Christ said he separate the goats and the sheep. It does not say enter into the kingdom of MY Father, which had been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For, YOU accepted ME as your personal Lord and savior.

In fact, the Lord did not even say CHRISTIANS. He said for when I was hungry you fed ME, and when I naked you clothed ME.

The TRUE RIGHTEOUS will be asking when did we ever do these things? (The interesting thing about that is Christians will not be asking that question, cause Christians are very well aware that when we feed the poor we feed Christ. So, who are these righteous people that will be asking this?)

I am wondering what kind of an audacity any of us have to try and tell I AM how to judge. Isn’t that a bit crazy?

Does it not mean HE will have the last word? Does HE?
 
Christ also said,“Anyone who knows me,knows my Father”.God is Love,Christ came to show us the way to Love,(God)which is by loving others as He has loved us.
 
All salvation is thru the work of Christ alone. No one comes to the Father except thru Christ. The story in Matthew of the last judgement has Him stating…“I was hungry…thirsty…alone…and you gave me food, drink and comforted me.” The one standing in judgement was ignorant of any such deed being done to Christ…“If you have done it to the least of theses…enter into the joy of you Lord”…no matter who “enters” it still is by Christ and Christ alone that makes access to the Presence possible.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
What does that mean to you?

Does that mean Christ gave man the last word on who goes to heaven, or does it mean that Christ has the last word and HE will be the judge?

I see many translate that into, WE need to accept HIM as our personal Lord and Savior.

The one thing wrong with that interpretation is it tends to oblige God on how HE will judge.

I notice for example, in none of the BEATITUDES, Christ never said, Blessed are they who accept ME as THEIR “Personal Lord and Savior.”

When Christ said he separate the goats and the sheep. It does not say enter into the kingdom of MY Father, which had been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For, YOU accepted ME as your personal Lord and savior.

In fact, the Lord did not even say CHRISTIANS. He said for when I was hungry you fed ME, and when I naked you clothed ME.

The TRUE RIGHTEOUS will be asking when did we ever do these things? (The interesting thing about that is Christians will not be asking that question, cause Christians are very well aware that when we feed the poor we feed Christ. So, who are these righteous people that will be asking this?)

I am wondering what kind of an audacity any of us have to try and tell I AM how to judge. Isn’t that a bit crazy?

Does it not mean HE will have the last word? Does HE?
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Well this passage has been a major reason for objections to praying to Saints and Marian excesses… I understand that, for the most part, we are not worshiping the Saints and Mary’s, but there are certainly cases of abuses and devotion that is not properly ordered to Christ.
 
godisgood77 said:
Well this passage has been a major reason for objections to praying to Saints and Marian excesses…
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A passage of the Bible cannot be a “reason” to object to the Catholic Church. It’s our book, God used us to write it, we own it and we live by it.

What the Bible says about the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints

Prove Prayer to Saints is Biblical

Prove Mary is my Mother

Where does the Bible say that Mary is …

Why does it matter that Mary is ever-virgin?

Prove the Immaculate Conception (Mary never sinned)

Prove the Assumption (Mary never died)
 
The Saints and Mary point the way to Christ alone. They show us how to be humble and think less of ourselves and more of Jesus. Those saints in the Communion of Saints want what Jesus and the Father want–ALL of us to be consumed with love of the Holy Trinity. They were mere mortal people who loved and followed Jesus. Come, let us follow Him, too!
 
I don’t understand how a Christian can possibly deny that faith in Christ is necessary to salvation. I am fairly sure that is the whole point of the New Testament and our entire faith.
 
Indifferently said:
I don’t understand how a Christian can possibly deny that faith in Christ is necessary to salvation. I am fairly sure that is the whole point of the New Testament and our entire faith.
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I am trying to find where anyone suggested that.

By saying that, are you insinuating Christ is obligated to choose whomever you feel He should choose?

You are not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to choose someone other than who you think He should, are you?

Blessed are they who are merciful, for they shall obtain MY mercy.

Who is it you suppose will be asking Christ, “When did we ever feed you, or clothe you?”

Cause Christ said that there will be those that will be asking that. So, who are they?

Bottom line is Christ is judge. He has the last word. Not us.

You disagree with that?

Did the good Samaritan know Christ? The bodies that rose from the grave after he died. Did they say the sinners prayer that according to some is vital?
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
What does that mean to you?

Does that mean Christ gave man the last word on who goes to heaven, or does it mean that Christ has the last word and HE will be the judge?

I see many translate that into, WE need to accept HIM as our personal Lord and Savior.

The one thing wrong with that interpretation is it tends to oblige God on how HE will judge.

I notice for example, in none of the BEATITUDES, Christ never said, Blessed are they who accept ME as THEIR “Personal Lord and Savior.”

When Christ said he separate the goats and the sheep. It does not say enter into the kingdom of MY Father, which had been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For, YOU accepted ME as your personal Lord and savior.

In fact, the Lord did not even say CHRISTIANS. He said for when I was hungry you fed ME, and when I naked you clothed ME.

The TRUE RIGHTEOUS will be asking when did we ever do these things? (The interesting thing about that is Christians will not be asking that question, cause Christians are very well aware that when we feed the poor we feed Christ. So, who are these righteous people that will be asking this?)

I am wondering what kind of an audacity any of us have to try and tell I AM how to judge. Isn’t that a bit crazy?

Does it not mean HE will have the last word? Does HE?
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It means to me that ‘without me, you can do nothing’. There is nothing that is pleasing and in obedience with the will of the Father that is done apart from Jesus Christ, who was perfectly obedient and pleasing to his heavenly Father.
 
JMJ91 said:
It means to me that ‘without me, you can do nothing’. There is nothing that is pleasing and in obedience with the will of the Father that is done apart from Jesus Christ, who was perfectly obedient and pleasing to his heavenly Father.
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Are you entirely dismissing Mathew 25:31-46?

So, what that really means to you is…

It does not matter if you ever feed the least of His brethren or not? I asked also for someone to describe who these TRUE RIGHTEOUS people are that will asking Christ, “When did we ever serve you?” We pretty much know Christians will not be asking that, since MOST if not ALL devout Christians are very well aware of that verse. So, which people will be asking Christ this question? Who? We know the true righteous will be asking that. That cannot be disputed. Christ said it, therefore it shall be. So, again, who will be asking this question?

No, what it means is that those that do feed the least of his brethren serve Christ.

You want to dismiss where Christ says blessed are the merciful, for they shall have mercy?

You want to dismiss all of those things?

Cause I will say again. It is a very dangerous place to be to tell anyone how Christ will judge each person.

You also need to dismiss where Christ says not all who say LORD LORD will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only THOSE WHO DO THE FATHERS WILL.

It is says in Romans 9 that God will choose who ever he chooses and will show mercy on who ever he shows mercy. Who are you to tell God who He will have mercy on?

You saying that it is not what that means?
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Are you entirely dismissing Mathew 25:31-46?

So, what that really means to you is…

It does not matter if you ever feed the least of His brethren or not? I asked also for someone to describe who these TRUE RIGHTEOUS people are that will asking Christ, “When did we ever serve you?” We pretty much know Christians will not be asking that, since MOST if not ALL devout Christians are very well aware of that verse. So, which people will be asking Christ this question? Who? We know the true righteous will be asking that. That cannot be disputed. Christ said it, therefore it shall be. So, again, who will be asking this question?

No, what it means is that those that do feed the least of his brethren serve Christ.

You want to dismiss where Christ says blessed are the merciful, for they shall have mercy?

You want to dismiss all of those things?

Cause I will say again. It is a very dangerous place to be to tell anyone how Christ will judge each person.

You also need to dismiss where Christ says not all who say LORD LORD will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only THOSE WHO DO THE FATHERS WILL.

It is says in Romans 9 that God will choose who ever he chooses and will show mercy on who ever he shows mercy. Who are you to tell God who He will have mercy on?

You saying that it is not what that means?
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When our Lord said to his disciples that he is the Vine, and we are the branches, that without me you can do nothing, he meant that loving God and one’s neigbor is not possible without abiding in the Vine. His Father, the vine dresser will prune every branch that is not abiding in the Vine. Every branch which is not obeying the teachings of the Vine while abiding in the Vine.
 
Its a difficult verse in that while it is true Christ is the bridge to the Father. Who did Christ place between us and Him as mediator’s to Him?

“It is becoming for you, O Mary, to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who bestowed upon you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Come to our aid for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason you are called “full of grace.”
Be mindful of us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, O Virgin full of grace.” St Athanasius

Was he wrong?
 
JMJ91 said:
When our Lord said to his disciples that he is the Vine, and we are the branches, that without me you can do nothing, he meant that loving God and one’s neigbor is not possible without abiding in the Vine. His Father, the vine dresser will prune every branch that is not abiding in the Vine. Every branch which is not obeying the teachings of the Vine while abiding in the Vine.
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What does blessed are the merciful mean?No one is totally obedient. Not even you. Not one. So again. Those true righteous that are going to be asking, When did we ever feed you, and Christ responds that each time you did it even unto the least of MY brethren, you did it to ME. Nowhere in the verse does it say…ENTER into the KINGDOM from the foundation of the WORLD for you accepted me as your personal Lord and savior.Christians will not be asking this question, cause every devout Christian is well aware about the verse where the LORD said how he will dividing the goats from the sheep. We also know through scriptures that EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY TONGUE will confess that Jesus is LORD. Again, He will choose who ever he chooses. The Lord GOD, I AM, is no way, shape or form obligated to judge according to how we think HE should. He will judge the way HE judges cause ALL JUDGEMENT has been given unto HIM. That means HE is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE. It actually affirms that HE is the LORD. Anyone saying that Christ will JUDGE the WAY we want is on dangerous ground. Did I say HE would automatically choose anyone and everyone that is not Christian? No. Certainly not.
However I am saying IF HE does, then HE does.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
What does blessed are the merciful mean?

No one is totally obedient. Not even you.

Not one.

So again. Those true righteous that are going to be asking, When did we ever feed you, and Christ responds that each time you did it even unto the least of MY brethren, you did it to ME.

Nowhere in the verse does it say…ENTER into the KINGDOM from the foundation of the WORLD for you accepted me as your personal Lord and savior.

Christians will not be asking this question, cause every devout Christian is well aware about the verse where the LORD said how he will dividing the goats from the sheep.

We also know through scriptures that EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY TONGUE will confess that Jesus is LORD.

Again, He will choose who ever he chooses. The Lord GOD, I AM, is no way, shape or form obligated to judge according to how we think HE should.

He will judge the way HE judges cause ALL JUDGEMENT has been given unto HIM.

That means HE is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE. It actually affirms that HE is the LORD.

Anyone saying that Christ will JUDGE the WAY we want is on dangerous ground.

Did I say HE would automatically choose anyone and everyone that is not Christian? No. Certainly not.

However I am saying IF HE does, then HE does.
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With regard to the teaching of the sheep and the goats…

Was Jesus using hypebole?, or was he explaining the mystical body of Christ?, or was he teaching the necessity of humility in perfoming acts of mercy? (‘let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing’,), or was he showing us there are those who are born into this world who remain in the light regardless of their religious affiliation? (“In him was life, and the life was the light of men…the true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world”)

I do not pretend to know the definitive answer to your question…only that it **may be **possible for someone who is not Christian and is abiding in the light in which they were born, may in fact be abiding in the Vine of the Father’s Vineyard.
 
JMJ91 said:
With regard to the teaching of the sheep and the goats…

Was Jesus using hypebole?, or was he explaining the mystical body of Christ?, or was he teaching the necessity of humility in perfoming acts of mercy? (‘let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing’,), or was he showing us there are those who are born into this world who remain in the light regardless of their religious affiliation? (“In him was life, and the life was the light of men…the true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world”)

I do not pretend to know the definitive answer to your question…only that it **may be **possible for someone who is not Christian and is abiding in the light in which they were born, may in fact be abiding in the Vine of the Father’s Vineyard.
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Well, I am not pretending to know how the Lord will judge either. However, when HE goes into specifics or when HE spells out what it means to serve Christ, tells me WE cannot pigeon hold the Lord in any way. I think we all have a pretty good idea that Christs judgments AND the way HE thinks is so far beyond any of our standards that we cannot fully know how HIS righteous judgement will be. I could be wrong here, but when HE says the TRUE righteous will be asking, When did we ever see you?, that is an indication that HIS mercy is far greater than any of us will know.

If I can use an analogy. When I read things like this, I tend to envision the mercy of the Lord as the Pacific Ocean. Mysterious, teams with life and most of all it is said that the Pacific Ocean has no memory. We has humans (we have been making this mistake for eons, and is really the trap the pharisees fell into) tend to limit God’s mercy to OUR standards. The anaolgy here is a man made swimming pool. No life. It is square, with no real mystery at all. It is simply built to our standards and our specifications.

When one insinuates they are obedient all of the time and remarks that we must be obedient in order to be saved falls into the curse of the law. Relying on the observance of the law to save is the exact trap the pharisees get into.

If we want to declare ourselves as saints, feel free. I will say this though as a warning about that. Peter declared during last supper that he would never betray Christ. Just at those exalting words, he was destined to deny him. John on the other hand leaned on Christ’s chest and asked if he was the one to betray. Through this humility, he was destined to the have the grace to be at the foot of the cross. To behold the man. That is why John became the representative of all Christians who walk by faith and are led to the foot of the cross. This is why Christ said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER. Those words are eternal also. It is affirmed in Johns Revelation 12:17 when it says the devil went off to wage war with the rest of her off spring. All those who bear witness to Christ and keep HIS commandments (to love one another). Couple that with Christ saying from the cross when HE said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER. Not MY MOTHER, but YOUR MOTHER. That is how those words are eternal.

Revelation is filled with images of the heavenly mass being witnessed by John. Who wrote what he saw. We see images of saints and angels gathered around the alter of God. With elders dressed in long white robes, and incense being burned and the smoke rising before God, which are the prayers of the saints.

We see the images of the WOMAN that gave birth to the male CHILD that sits upon the right hand of God. We see she is crowned with 12 stars. We harken back the Lords prayer when HE says THY KINGDOM COME, THEY WILL BE DONE, on EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Which one imitates on EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN? Many will say that Revelation 12 only refers to Israel and not the ACTUAL WOMAN THAT GAVE BIRTH. Yet, when Jesus said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER, HE was not referring to Israel. He was referring to the ACTUAL WOMAN THAT HAVE BIRTH.

Unless we are to believe that only certain things Christ said from the cross was recorded for eternal purposes and certain things were not. What a wonderful, convenient way to justify our interpretations.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Well, I am not pretending to know how the Lord will judge either. However, when he goes into specifics or when he spells out what it means to serve Christ, tells me WE cannot pigeon hold the Lord in any way. I think we all have a pretty good idea that Christs judgements AND the way HE thinks is so far beyond any of our standards that we cannot fully know how HIS righteous judgement will be. I could be wrong here, but when HE says the TRUE righteous will asking, When did we ever see you?, that is an indication that his mercy is far greater than any of us will know.

If I can use an analogy. When I read things like this, I tend to envision the mercy of the Lord as the Pacific Ocean. Mysterious, teams with life and most of all it is said that the Pacific Ocean has no memory. We has humans (we have been making this mistake for eons, and is really the trap the pharisees fell into) tend to limit God’s mercy to OUR standards. The anaolgy here is a man made swimming pool. No life. It is square, with no real mystery at all. It is simply built to our standards and our specifications.

When one insinuates they are obedient all of the time and remark that we must be obedient in order to be saved falls into the curse of the law. Relying on the observance of the law to save is the exact trap the pharisees get into.

If we want to declare ourselves as saints, feel free. I will say this though as a warning about that. Peter declared during last supper that he would never betray Christ. Just at those exalting words, he was destined to deny him. John on the other hand leaned on Christ’s chest and asked if he was the one to betray. Through this humility, he was destined to the have the grace to be at the foot of the cross. To behold the man. That is why John became the representative of all Christians who walk by faith and are led to the foot of the cross. This is why Christ said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER. Those words are eternal also. It is affirmed in Johns Revelation 12:17 when it says the devil went off to wage war with the rest of her off spring. All those who bear witness to Christ and keep HIS commandments (to love one another). Couple that with Christ saying from the cross when he said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER. Not MY MOTHER, but YOUR MOTHER. That is how those words are eternal.

Revelation is filled with images of the heavenly mass being witnessed by John. Who wrote what he saw. We see images of saints and angels gathered around the alter of God. With elders dressed in long white robes, and incense being burned and the smoke rising before God, which are the prayers of the saints.

We see the images of the WOMAN that gave birth to the male CHILD that sits upon the right hand of God. We see she is crowned with 12 stars. We harken back the Lords prayer when HE says THY KINGDOM COME, THEY WILL BE DONE, on EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Which one imitates on EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN? Many will say that Revelation 12 only refers to Israel and not the ACTUAL WOMAN THAT GAVE BIRTH. Yet, when Jesus said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER, HE was not referring to Israel. He was referring to the ACTUAL WOMAN THAT HAVE BIRTH.

Unless we are to believe that only certain things Christ said from the cross was recorded for eternal purposes and cetain things were not. What a wonderful, convenient way to justify our interpretations.
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Maybe we are speaking of two different things. You are speaking of the unfathomable mercy of God, and I am speaking of the righteousness of God that is only through the indwelling presence of Jesus Christ **working through **the individual who is abiding in him.

Without holiness no one can enter the presence of God. It is not God’s unfathomable unqualified mercy that allows one to enter the presence of God, but the unfathomable righteousness of Jesus Christ that is transforming each individual who is abiding in him, hence, making it possible to enter into the presence of our merciful, yet holy God.

The mercy of God was poured out to the whole human race by the sacrificial death of His Righteous, only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Without the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the mercy of God would not be available to us.
 
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