"No one goes to hell unless they choose to"

[cheeto1]

(they have been given every fair second chance, blah, blah, blah)

Yes there are some who proudly proclaim that they are on a “highway to hell”,
but mostly people do not choose hell. They just think they can will their own
eternity to be however they want it.

1. I’m a good person, God can’t keep me out of heaven.
2. I’ll just disappear when I die.
3. Hell won’t be suffering, all my friends will be there!

Lots of people grasp for pleasure, throwing caution to the wind, and not thinking of
their future.

Lets say some kids died by swimming at a quarry or surfing and got caught in a
rip-tide. You are saying they chose to drown when actually what they chose was
to swim in dangerous water. They chose to get away with it, but they didn’t
receive the choice that they chose.

 

[4EverHis]

people choose hell when they reject God’s grace… whatever grace is given to them. Often this is because they don’t believe or don’t care about God, or worst of all, hate Him. However, there are also people who don’t yet believe in God, yet they are accepting His graces and are on their way to conversion and hopefully salvation.

 

[Eucharisted]

Whoever declares himself good deceives himself, for no one is good save God.
Whoever relies on himself to be good is on the path to Hell, for one cannot presume salvation.
Whoever chooses to commit mortal sin will go to Hell, for they have chosen to seperate themselves from God.

Now mortal sin is a grave action done willingly and knowingly. So, if someone was to rely on themselves, without knowing it was a sin, they wouldn’t be committing a mortal sin, so they would be committing a venial sin, whereby, if they died, they would go to Heaven, if not through Purgatory first.

 

[distracted]

Cheeto has a point about them only chooseing “dangerous waters” but thy knew it was ddangerous… so they have still chosen something… well, bad, dangerous, whatever you call it…

Jesus says it is hard to get to heavne and i know from expeirence how true that is. …experience if nothing else…

there is a lot of evil in people even those who try to be good… evil is anythign that is not of God… not of love… & even we devout Chrstians sttruggle… the devil is a formidable foe…
we can’t win against him without… the Church…

people rationalize their way to Hell… they say that this or that thing is no big deal with God… and if you say that over and over it won’t take long before you believe it…

which is why people should spend a lot of time with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament… then they will see things about themselves they wouldn’t see otherwise or not clearly…

when you are in the world, you become worldly, when you are with Christ you become…

whatever He wants you to become…

(if you let him… I g uess you could spend time with Him and still ignore him…)

 

[distracted]

Whoever declares himself good deceives himself, for no one is good save God.
Whoever relies on himself to be good is on the path to Hell, for one cannot presume salvation.
Whoever chooses to commit mortal sin will go to Hell, for they have chosen to seperate themselves from God.

Now mortal sin is a grave action done willingly and knowingly. So, if someone was to rely on themselves, without knowing it was a sin, they wouldn’t be committing a mortal sin, so they would be committing a venial sin, whereby, if they died, they would go to Heaven, if not through Purgatory first.

I am not clear what you mean by all this… this relying on self thing.

YOU are the only one who can get yourslef to Heaven… Even a person on some deserted island who had never heard of Jesus could get to heaven if he loved God and did everything He htought / believed God wanted him to…

but there are Chrsitians who won’t make it to Heaven…

you have to rely on self… because you are the only person who can control yourself… and even that is difficult…

in any case, it is YOUR choices that get you to Heavne or to Hell…

Jesus can’t (won’t) save anyone who doesn’t want to be saved…

 

[Eucharisted]

I am not clear what you mean by all this… this relying on self thing.

YOU are the only one who can get yourslef to Heaven… Even a person on some deserted island who had never heard of Jesus could get to heaven if he loved God and did everything He htought / believed God wanted him to…

but there are Chrsitians who won’t make it to Heaven…

you have to rely on self… because you are the only person who can control yourself… and even that is difficult…

in any case, it is YOUR choices that get you to Heavne or to Hell…

Jesus can’t (won’t) save anyone who doesn’t want to be saved…

God is Salvation. No one gets to Heaven save by His grace.

Therefore, you must rely on Him. To rely on yourself is to follow Satan.

 

[JRKH]

God is Salvation. No one gets to Heaven save by His grace.

Therefore, you must rely on Him. To rely on yourself is to follow Satan.

I love this because it feeds directly into something I read in the Dialog of St Catherine of Sienna, a Doctor of The Church.

Basically it is this. At the moment of Death we each choose our destination based upon how we chose to Live our lives.

Those who, "who have lived in charity and died (Perfected) in love, See the Good that God has prepared for them, "and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to…, the Supreme and Eternal Good. "

"Others who have passed their lives, …with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace God’s mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained God’s mercy, counting His mercy greater than their sins. " These go to purgatory.

“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred.”

So it is that each of us, by the store of “Treasure” we build up in ourselves chooses our own destiny.
It is ones Thoughts and Actions for the Love of God and neighbor that allows one, in that last instance to cling, however imperfectly, to God and His mercy.
On the other hand -
It is ones thoughts and actions running contrary to Love that cause one, in that last instant, to cling to and reach out for that very evil he has nurtured, and has so carefully stored up in his heart.

Peace
James

 

[distracted]

God is Salvation. No one gets to Heaven save by His grace.

Therefore, you must rely on Him. To rely on yourself is to follow Satan.

what Christian relies totaly on himself?

none…

esp those of us who know how weak & sinful we are w/o Christ…

but without our cooperation with Him we will not make it to Heaven… this seems such an obvious truth it hardly needs to be said…

except to those who adhere to the concept of OnceSavedAlwaysSaved

 

[distracted]

I love this because it feeds directly into something I read in the Dialog of St Catherine of Sienna, a Doctor of The Church.

Basically it is this. At the moment of Death we each choose our destination based upon how we chose to Live our lives.

Those who, "who have lived in charity and died (Perfected) in love, See the Good that God has prepared for them, "and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to…, the Supreme and Eternal Good. "

"Others who have passed their lives, …with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace God’s mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained God’s mercy, counting His mercy greater than their sins. " These go to purgatory.

“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred.”

So it is that each of us, by the store of “Treasure” we build up in ourselves chooses our own destiny.
It is ones Thoughts and Actions for the Love of God and neighbor that allows one, in that last instance to cling, however imperfectly, to God and His mercy.
On the other hand -
It is ones thoughts and actions running contrary to Love that cause one, in that last instant, to cling to and reach out for that very evil he has nurtured, and has so carefully stored up in his heart.

Peace
James

wow, this articulates well what i often try to tell people about this…

I especailly appreciate that last sentence… Was that you or St Catherine?

 

[distracted]

people choose hell when they reject God’s grace… whatever grace is given to them. Often this is because they don’t believe or don’t care about God, or worst of all, hate Him. However, there are also people who don’t yet believe in God, yet they are accepting His graces and are on their way to conversion and hopefully salvation.

i have to admit i’ve had moments when i hated God… when things were just so crazy and so evil i coiuldn’t believe, in those awful moments, that He gave a rip about me (or others… abortion )

but i cannot u/stand someone who hates God as in: End o’sentence… for life…

I’ve heard of peole who got angry with him … maybe left His Church, etc… and they jsut stay angry…

I can u/stand getting angry @ Him but not staying angry…

Well, Ok, i can even u/stand that… but not so angry that you throw yourself into Hell…

to get away from him… or whatever…

 

[JRKH]

wow, this articulates well what i often try to tell people about this…

I especailly appreciate that last sentence… Was that you or St Catherine?

The last sentence is perhaps the Holy Spirit speaking through me.

Yes I too have found this to be the best articulated way of looking at the “particular judgement” at death.
It seems to me to be a sort of “reaction”. That is, at the point of death we don’t have time, or ability, to “think about it” or come up with a “defense”, we simply “react” and reach out for and with those things we have practiced through our lives.
We live in Love = We reach out in Love.
We Live in Hate = We reach out in Hate.

In a way it is like the old Karate Kid Movie. (Wax on Wax off). The wise old teacher taught the youngster that everything he did prepared him for the test. How he thought, how he acted, and the spririt in which he performed the most mundane tasks added to his ability to “react” Properly". If this is true in physical training, how much more important is it in spiritual “training”?

Peace
James

 

[distracted]

The last sentence is perhaps the Holy Spirit speaking through me.

Yes I too have found this to be the best articulated way of looking at the “particular judgement” at death.
It seems to me to be a sort of “reaction”. That is, at the point of death we don’t have time, or ability, to “think about it” or come up with a “defense”, we simply “react” and reach out for and with those things we have practiced through our lives.
We live in Love = We reach out in Love.
We Live in Hate = We reach out in Hate.

Peace
James

i like the simplicity of that last “equation”…

seems you tell some popele this kind of thing and they just think you are a hatemonger who wants everyone (who isn’t Catholic… or whatever) to rot in Hell… nothing could be fruther from the truth… I remind people of Hell and how easy it is to get there because I DON"T wnat them going there…

I had this interesting thing happen to me some time ago… I began to get tired of “fighting” it… always trying to get people to follow Christ or follow him better… I even felt one time that i didn’t care much if they went to Hell since (some) seem to totally deserve it and (etc) … I was in a very bad, defeated kind of mood that day, obvously… but anyway, then this weird thing happend & i was in this situation where i felt God hated me (an unexpected inconvenience [big one] happend… long story) and of course, feeling that He hated me (or he wouldn’t have let it happen), i felt i was in Hell… and then i had this insight… and i realized so clearly… how i must keep on caring about the souls of others… and never allow myself to desire for 1 moment that anyone get this kind of permenent suffering… (Purgatory is bad enough… its only temporary… its the permanancy of Hell that disturbs me). The hellish situation i had been in seemed like it was going to last forever but it didn’t… (except that sometimes my whole life feels like hell… )
In that terribly u/comfortable moment, i thoght a lot about Hell … and how it never ends and my compassion for my fellow humans returned “in spades”… thank God…
i wonder if that was the whole reason why God allowed it to happen? some would say coincidence… but…

 

[JRKH]

i like the simplicity of that last “equation”…

seems you tell some popele this kind of thing and they just think you are a hatemonger who wants everyone (who isn’t Catholic… or whatever) to rot in Hell… nothing could be fruther from the truth… I remind people of Hell and how easy it is to get there because I DON"T wnat them going there…

I had this interesting thing happen to me some time ago… I began to get tired of “fighting” it… always trying to get people to follow Christ or follow him better… I even felt one time that i didn’t care much if they went to Hell since (some) seem to totally deserve it and (etc) … I was in a very bad, defeated kind of mood that day, obvously… but anyway, then this weird thing happend & i was in this situation where i felt God hated me (an unexpected inconvenience [big one] happend… long story) and of course, feeling that He hated me (or he wouldn’t have let it happen), i felt i was in Hell… and then i had this insight… and i realized so clearly… how i must keep on caring about the souls of others… and never allow myself to desire for 1 moment that anyone get this kind of permenent suffering… (Purgatory is bad enough… its only temporary… its the permanancy of Hell that disturbs me). The hellish situation i had been in seemed like it was going to last forever but it didn’t… (except that sometimes my whole life feels like hell… )
In that terribly u/comfortable moment, i thoght a lot about Hell … and how it never ends and my compassion for my fellow humans returned “in spades”… thank God…
i wonder if that was the whole reason why God allowed it to happen? some would say coincidence… but…

Have you ever heard of the Book, "The Fulfillment of All desire, by Ralph Martin?

Peace
James

 

[distracted]

Have you ever heard of the Book, "The Fulfillment of All desire, by Ralph Martin?

Peace
James

no

is it Catholic??

 

[JRKH]

no

is it Catholic??

Yes - Decidedly so. **HERE **is a Link to Amazon where you can peek inside. Be sure to read the reviews as well.

This book introduced me to St Catherine’s writings as well as other great Doctors of the Church in the “Mystical” tradition, - John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Catherine, Francis de Sales, and others are used to truly demonstrate how we can grow in holiness.

I highly recommend this book to anyone looking to grow in holiness.

Peace
James

 

[upbeatjonm]

An anology came to my mind:

A fish who is attracted to a lure, and bites it, was thinking it was choosing something good, and did not choose the frying pan.

Similarly, the devil is laying snares for us, and often we go for it, thinking that is is something good (rationalizing). Who would choose a fiery furnace outright? The problem is that we believe the lie…just like the fish believed the lure was a real piece of food.

 

[JRKH]

An anology came to my mind:

A fish who is attracted to a lure, and bites it, was thinking it was choosing something good, and did not choose the frying pan.

Similarly, the devil is laying snares for us, and often we go for it, thinking that is is something good (rationalizing). Who would choose a fiery furnace outright? The problem is that we believe the lie…just like the fish believed the lure was a real piece of food.

Good analogy!!
This is a good way of thinking about sin.
And to fit it in with how St Catherine explained it, the more times we go for satan’s lure, the more easily we are attracted to it. For the more we “go for the lures” the more the Devil knows just WHAT attracts us.

Peace
James

 

[cheeto1]

I love this because it feeds directly into something I read in the Dialog of St Catherine of Sienna, a Doctor of The Church.

Basically it is this. At the moment of Death we each choose our destination based upon how we chose to Live our lives.

Those who, "who have lived in charity and died (Perfected) in love, See the Good that God has prepared for them, "and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to…, the Supreme and Eternal Good. "

"Others who have passed their lives, …with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace God’s mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained God’s mercy, counting His mercy greater than their sins. " These go to purgatory.

“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred.”

So it is that each of us, by the store of “Treasure” we build up in ourselves chooses our own destiny.
It is ones Thoughts and Actions for the Love of God and neighbor that allows one, in that last instance to cling, however imperfectly, to God and His mercy.
On the other hand -
It is ones thoughts and actions running contrary to Love that cause one, in that last instant, to cling to and reach out for that very evil he has nurtured, and has so carefully stored up in his heart.

Peace
James

So are you saying that every little thing we do, goes toward good or evil, and that
we don’t actually do “neutral” things?

Are you saying that in the last moment of your life, you can either choose to love
or to hate, and that will be your choice of heaven or hell?

So then our life here would be a series of exercises, designed to train us to choose
love in “the hour of our death”, our final exam.

Is this what you are saying?

 

[stuart12]

You have two choices. You serve God or the world. Even if you only think you have one choice and serve the world…you have still chosen it freely.

 

[cheeto1]

So are you saying that every little thing we do, goes toward good or evil, and that
we don’t actually do “neutral” things?

Are you saying that in the last moment of your life, you can either choose to love
or to hate, and that will be your choice of heaven or hell?

So then our life here would be a series of exercises, designed to train us to choose
love in “the hour of our death”, our final exam.

Is this what you are saying?

I’m not saying I disagree if it is, you’ve just said a lot to think about, and I’m trying
to make sense of it all…