No one in heaven or hell

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I apologise unreservedly. I did not read all the page, only the sections I posted. My views are not represented by this and I retract those references. Apologies for any offence caused it was not my intention. :o Lesson learned.
Quite decent; God bless you. (And bring you to Himself, I can’t resist adding.) 🙂
 
Quite decent; God bless you. (And bring you to Himself, I can’t resist adding.) 🙂
I’m open to it if he’s out there. Unfortunatly I don’t think ‘he’ is. 🙂

I feel bad about that, I can’t continue this thread now, I’ve destroyed it with that dumb post.

The really funny thing about believing in life after death, is in a wierd form of pascals wager, you’ll never know if you’re wrong only if you’re right…

and I’ll never know unless I’m wrong…

it is what it is I guess.🤷
 
Outside of pure mathematics, you don’t prove theories.

You never prove theories.

You only disprove them.
You can’t prove or disprove anything with science. Even after you “disprove” a theory, you could discover that the reasons behind its disproval were faulty.
 
I firmly believe there is nobody in hell… or heaven. Why?

Because we don’t have souls and when electricity stops moving throught our brains we are gone forever.

There is no demonstratable evidence that we do have souls.
Since most people have talked about the possibility of a soul and the dualist school of thought regarding an afterlife, I’ll provide a few materialist questions to consider.
  • You say gone forever. But on what grounds do you say this? 200 years ago, “you” did not exist in any real material way, save for the scattered matter, energy, and information that may eventually comprise you. 200 years from now, “you” may be in the same situation. Who is to say that you cannot rise out of this state after death, just as you rose out of it before life?
  • You mention situations such as people with Alzheimer’s, or who are comatose, or infants who die For the former, I would argue that it’s well-established that people who suffer medical/mental problems are, naturally, not considered in the right state of mind. It’s a question of culpability. Since I’m discussing things from a materialist perspective, questions about when the “soul” leaves these bodies don’t apply so much - but even from a non-materialist standpoint, they aren’t objections. Simply questions of process, with multiple possibilities.
  • As an aside, Galileo’s case was not cut and dry. Egos, politics, and various other issues were in play regarding his treatment, same as always. It wasn’t a case of a gentle, humble scientist offering up Total Truth, and the Church rejecting it because they hated the concept of heliocentrism.
  • Yes, even soul-believers believe there is a link between the soul and the mind. This is one of the most common misconceptions of dualism. Aquinas, I believe, taught that man was a creature of both soul and body, and that without both, he was incomplete. Descartes certainly did as well. Someone may want to correct me on this, of course.
  • How do you store/carry across memories without a brain? Well, we started off with art and oral traditions. Then writing. Then computers. In this context I’m talking primarily about resurrection - for now, I’ll leave thoughts of heaven and hell to others. But the point is that we’ve been developing ways to store/carry memories outside of the brain for a long time - it’s one of the most basic functions of humanity. Why do you think bringing back an individual, brain and memories intact, is an utter impossibility? If you buy into the Dawkins/Harris/Dennett concept, you have to believe that life can come from unlife to begin with. Why write off things as impossible?
Some things to consider.
 
I’m open to it if he’s out there. Unfortunatly I don’t think ‘he’ is. 🙂

I feel bad about that, I can’t continue this thread now, I’ve destroyed it with that dumb post.

The really funny thing about believing in life after death, is in a wierd form of pascals wager, you’ll never know if you’re wrong only if you’re right…

and I’ll never know unless I’m wrong…

it is what it is I guess.🤷
On the contrary, Gareth, this is an excellent topic of discussion. The only thing that would “destroy” it would be if you would leave it. Without you hear, i’m sure it would be like a dead corpse whose soul has moved on. 😉

I have some ideas on the subject i’d like to discuss with you, if you are willing to stay awhile. I’m not looking for a debate, just a thoughtful dialog. Are you game?
 
Outside of pure mathematics, you don’t prove theories. You never prove theories. You only disprove them.
OK. Let me rephrase that. Galileo had the wrong idea about why the earth revolved around the sun. The right idea did not arrive until 200 years after Galileo’s death. Happy now?

🙂
 
I think Socrates did an convincing job of demonstrating the soul survives after death. Does anyone care to hear what he had to say?
 
I do 🙂

Gotta love that ol’ chap.

I was wondering, though, doesn’t the Bible show a more holistic view of man… that man is not man without his body.

Especially it seems so in the Old Testament.

What is the rightful place of Greek philosophy in Christian theology?
  • CB
 
I do 🙂

Gotta love that ol’ chap.

I was wondering, though, doesn’t the Bible show a more holistic view of man… that man is not man without his body.

Especially it seems so in the Old Testament.

What is the rightful place of Greek philosophy in Christian theology?
  • CB
Well, that is the debate among Protestants. Seventh Day Adventists take the same view as Jehovah’s Witnesses, that when you are dead you are dead like a dog. God, they say, will resurrect the dead so that they will live again. The time between death and resurrection, they cease to exist.

Most Protestants and Catholics disagree and believe the Bible teaches that the soul exists apart from the body. They do, however, agree that there will be a resurrection of the bodies of the dead. These resurrected bodies, they say, will be reunited with their souls and will be immortal, as is the resurrected body of Jesus. If you like, i can quote passages from the Bible that support these concepts. However, i’m assuming you just wanted a brief synopsis.
 
CB:

Regarding Socrates’ place in Christianity, i have the odd view that Socrates was to the Greeks (and in effect to the Romans, too, who loved Greek ideas) what John the Baptist was to the Jewish people. He had this eloquent way of demonstrating that none of the Greek gods was the source of all true wisdom (or truth or virtue) and so there must be one God above all other Gods who is absolute wisdom, truth and virtue. The word philosopher literally means to be one of wisdom’s lovers, so philosophy was, according to Socrates, the pursuit of the one true God above all other gods. This teaching of his was one of the reasons the men of Athens sentenced him to death. He died a martyr, as did John the Baptist, but not till after he made the way for Christ to later be accepted by the Greeks and Romans.
 
CB:

If you want to hear what Socrates had to say regarding the proof of the survival of the soul after death, i will be glad to share it with you. However, rather than spell it all out in a long post, it will be better to discuss the matter with you by way of the Socratic Method, if you are willing. I’ll ask a few simple questions, and all you have to tell me whether you agree or disagree with each premise that leads up to the conclusion that the soul lives after the body dies. Let me know if you are interested in participating in the dialog.
 
Sounds fun.

I am rather familiar with the Socratic method, so you just go ahead 🙂

But perhaps it is better suited for a new thread?

-CB
 
Sorry about the delay. So many obligations, so little time!

OK, it was the day of Socrates’ death. The men of Athens, by democratic vote, ruled that he should die by drinking poison. Socrates’ students were visiting him for the last time. They wondered why he had not escaped prison when given the chance (for someone had bribed the guard to allow him to escape but Socrates refused to do so).

They asked him why he was so willing to die. He said that philosophers, more than any other men, do not fear death, for their reason tells them the soul lives after death. He asked them if they wished that he would demonstrate the soul lives after death, and they said that they would. So he asked one of his disciples questions similar to the ones i’m going to ask you now:
Code:
Are not all things which have opposites generated out of their opposites? I mean, such things as good and evil, just and unjust, brightness and darkness, heat and cold—and there are an innumerable other opposites which are generated out of opposites. 
 
This holds universally of all opposites, i believe. That is to say, for example, anything which becomes greater must become greater after being less. And that which becomes less must have once been greater. And the weaker is generated from the stronger and the swifter from the slower. And the worst is from the better and the more just from the unjust. 
 
And this is true of all opposites. Would you agree, CB?
 
Are not all things which have opposites generated out of their opposites? I mean, such things as good and evil, just and unjust, brightness and darkness, heat and cold—and there are an innumerable other opposites which are generated out of opposites.

This holds universally of all opposites, i believe. That is to say, for example, anything which becomes greater must become greater after being less. And that which becomes less must have once been greater. And the weaker is generated from the stronger and the swifter from the slower. And the worst is from the better and the more just from the unjust.

And this is true of all opposites. Would you agree, CB?
Yes Socrates, I agree, that there is no darkness unless we know what light is, and that there is no evil except we know what good is. Neither can we say anybody is unjust unless we know what it is to be just.

But does it go both ways? Can not good exist without evil? We know that God is good, and we know he exists by his own power. Evil is generated by being in opposition to God, who is good, but is God’s goodness generated by being in opposition to something?
  • CB
 
Yes Socrates, I agree, that there is no darkness unless we know what light is, and that there is no evil except we know what good is. Neither can we say anybody is unjust unless we know what it is to be just.

But does it go both ways? Can not good exist without evil? We know that God is good, and we know he exists by his own power. Evil is generated by being in opposition to God, who is good, but is God’s goodness generated by being in opposition to something?
  • CB
Interesting question. The answer i think might be discovered by answering Socrates’ question to the religious sage Euthyphro. The question went something like this:

Does God do what is right because it is good, or is what is right good because God does it?
 
An example might be given by way of the author of Hebrews, who wrote that “it is impossible for God to lie” (Hebrews 6:18).

The question, in this context, might be this:

Does God tell the truth because it is good, or is telling the truth good because God does it?Any number of similar questions could be asked. The answer to this question, i think, will help us better answer your question, CB.
 
Neither/both.

God is good because good is his nature, and good is good because it is God’s nature. God is the ultimate source and standard of good, therefore it makes no sense to say that God can do something evil, nor to say that God can define something evil (ie. contrary to his nature) to be good (ie. according to his nature).

God is the measure whereby we must measure goodness, so in a sense, things are good because God “says so”. But what God defines as good is not arbitrary, rather it *is *always good, because God’s nature is good.

It’s like asking who created God, I think.
  • CB
 
Interesting. Yes, i see what you mean. Actually, i misrepresented Socrates, for he asked Euthyphro if the gods did what is right because it is good or if what the they did was good because they did it. He then made a persuasive case that it is impossible to be good by imitating the gods because they themselves disagree on what actions are good and what actions are evil. Euthyphro ran away from Socrates when he saw his own contradictions. I imagine Socrates, if he continued the dialog, would have demonstrated, as he did in other dialogs, that there must be one God who is the source of all wisdom.
 
I firmly believe there is nobody in hell… or heaven. Why?
Because we don’t have souls and when electricity stops moving throught our brains we are gone forever.
There is no demonstratable evidence that we do have souls. I pose the following as fuel for thought:

Lets say, you are right now a devout believer, everything is in order, you are assured of salvation. Later in your life you develop Althziemers desease. At first you forget things. Later you become nasty and hateful. (sadly it happens). You forget God. After this your brain forgets about your personality but your body remains. Still later your brain forgets about your body and it dies. when did your soul leave your body? is your soul in your body? if so where?
Will you go to hell if not why not? (invincable ignorance?)
Second question:
A child is born. It dies on the second day of it’s life. Where does it go?
To hell? (unbaptized?)
To heaven?(invinceable ignorance) Can it now think, and speak, does it know things or is it still like a baby? if not where did it’s knowledge come from? how is this knowledge connected to it’s soul.
to limbo? (the too hard basket?)
What happens when a person is in a coma, and then dies. when does the soul depart? Is there a link between the soul and the mind? or are the two totally seperate?
Will there be memories in the afterlife? if so how will they be stored / carried accross without the Brain?
I’m truly interested to know, your thoughts. These are the questions which caused me to cease to believe. I appreciate there are a lot of questions in this post, and I don’t expect anyone to answer them all I just used them as a conversation starter. A basic overview of how the soul - mind - relationship is thought to occur would be appreciated.
Please when you answer if you want me to read the bible please give references rather than pasting in vs after vs after vs. I will read these in any version you suggest if your post is coherrant and courteous.
Kind regards
Gareth
Gareth when you think about your car, it is obvious that it did not make it self. You realise that everything has its place,chase frame seats steering wheel mirrors lights wheels engine gear box electrical system breaks, and so on. without any of these parts it is incomplete. And you also know that somebody had to have designed it, and thought about it and planed every step, drawn up a blue prints so that the equilibrium of every thing was precis. What I’m getting at is that no matter how many millions of years you wait these parts will not make themselves and come together as a whole. No it needs someone to design and build it.
And even then it’s obsolete until somebody gets into it and turns it on and drives it away. Think about the amount of engineering, the inventors it took to design all the parts and the man hours to build it. And all that it is, is metal plastic rubber glass cloth, stiff and cumbersome!!
Now compare the above Heap of scrap, to the human body which is light millennial years a head in sophisticated technology. By looking at a car you know somebody built it, the same with a house or computer or anything built by human know how, we accept that it was created by a human being. SO WHY CAN’T YOU ACCEPT WHAT THE ADVANCED SCINCE OF TO DAY ARE ONLY NEBLING AT THE EADGE OF, THAT WHICH HAS BEEN HERE FROM THE BEGGINING, WAS CREATED BY [GOD]
The human body is the sophisticated car which God has given us to take us through life, so that we can use our free will to choose his love or our own self interest. You also talk about God as though he were indifferent to our suffering. Read [Luke 15:11-32] That’s the story of us on earth. We can choose Gods way or ours, Gods way is love your neighbor don’t do anything to harm or hurt an other human being. Self interest is the opposite to that. And that’s the way the boy in this story went. But when he found out the hard way, his Father welcomed him back with open arms. All your question can be answered by this. GOD IS LOVE AND ALL MERCYFULL. Don’t know if I would have enough room to answer all you question, any I’m to tired to night.

Gog bless
Matt.
 
All these atheists!!! They are like trolls. I think they are coming from another website. How annoying. Thread after thread after thread… about the same thing…
 
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